The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

[AmbiguousGuy]

It's not clear that he even registered the question of homosexual relations. He deals very clearly with paederasty, in the form of older men keeping a boy, but as there's no corresponding verse about women, it must be assumed that the issue is paederasty, not homosexuality, and this is the generally accepted interpretation in the Bahai community. There's another verse that refers to sodomy, and some Bahais think this is a euphemism (!) for homosexual relations, overlooking the fact that sodomy is not exclusively homosexual.

Again I'm impressed with your writing style and your presentation.

As I said earlier, I think the Baha'is should interpret their scripture as accepting homosexuality rather than condemning it. Christianity has done that all along, moving from a literal creation to an acceptance of evolution, among other adjustments. It's just a matter of interpretation.

I think even Islam will one day be able to see their harsher scriptures as figurative.

 

[oldbadger]

It's not clear that he even registered the question of homosexual relations. He deals very clearly with paederasty, in the form of older men keeping a boy, but as there's no corresponding verse about women, it must be assumed that the issue is paederasty, not homosexuality,

.....Hi.......


....Wow! He deals with 'older men keeping a boy'?

Did he deal (directly) with:-
With men keeping a man?
With men keeping a girl?

...Ouch! What is the age of consent for Bahais?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

....Wow! He deals with 'older men keeping a boy'?

My understanding is that practice was somewhat common in his time and place.

It's why the OT didn't address lesbianism but only spoke of randy men. It never occurred to the scripturists that women might want to sleep with women.

So I think, anyway.

 

[CG Didymus]

Nor does the Bahá'í Revelation... attempt, under any circumstances, to invalidate those first and everlasting principles that animate and underlie the religions that have preceded it.

One example: Christian, "Is Jesus God?"Baha'i, "No." Christian, "Thomas touched him and called him Lord and God?" Baha'i, "So? He was wrong. Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead. The apostles were feeling oh so bad for three days, then got off their duffs and started spreading the "good news" Thus, bringing to life the teachings of Jesus." Christian, "Then what is the good news? I thought the good news was that he conquered death so we could all be free from the bondage of sin? Baha'i, "Where did you get that idea?" Christian, "From the NT." Baha'i, "It's misinterpreted."

The God-given authority, vested in each one of them, it admits and establishes as its firmest and ultimate basis. It regards them in no other light except as different stages in the eternal history and constant evolution of one religion, Divine and indivisible, of which it itself forms but an integral part.

So here isthe different "stages". But stages build off of each other. It's more like the different religions knock down the foundations of the previous religions and, at best, keep the bare minimum of the earlier religion, and, in many cases, say that the previous religion got it wrong. Example: Christian (A Jesus Freak), "Hey dude, you were born in sin and the wages of sin is death. You've got to accept Jesus into your heart and he will save you. After all, he is your Messiah." Jew, "We follow the God-given Law that Moses taught. And, Jesus didn't bring in the Messianic Era, so he can't be the Messiah." Christian, "Dude, JC fulfilled the Law. You don't have to do it anymore. And, Jesus is coming back, man. He's coming soon. And, that is when he'll bring in God's Kingdom on Earth." Jew, "The Bible says we are to keep the Law forever." Christian, "Dude, you got it all wrong. You're misinterpreting the Bible. Jesus interpreted correctly. He's the living Word of God, in fact, he's God in the flesh, man. The NT says so." Baha'i, "I couldn't help but over hear you, but Jesus is a mirror. He's not, how do you say it, 'God in the flesh'." Christian, "Dude, you're following a false prophet, man. Satan deceived you. The Bible has to be interpreted literally. Every eye will see him and every tongue will confess that he is Lord." Baha'i, "No, that's all figurative. Jesus, in the form of Baha'u'llah, came and went all ready."

It neither seeks to obscure their Divine origin, nor to dwarf the admitted magnitude of their colossal achievements. It can countenance no attempt that seeks to distort their features or to stultify the truths which they instill. Its teachings do not deviate a hairbreadth from the verities they enshrine, nor does the weight of its message detract one jot or one tittle from the influence they exert or the loyalty they inspire.

They don't "distort"? No, Baha'is say the different religions have been distorted. So that makes the distorted view of how people practice their religion a distortion, right?

Far from aiming at the overthrow of the spiritual foundation of the world's religious systems, its avowed, its unalterable purpose is to widen their basis, to restate their fundamentals, to reconcile their aims, to reinvigorate their life, to demonstrate their oneness, to restore the pristine purity of their teachings, to coordinate their functions and to assist in the realization of their highest aspirations.

What are the "fundamental" teachings of the different religions? Which religions do you recognize as legitimate? Shinto? Taoism? Sihk? Catholic Christians? Sunni Islam? Who are the accepted "Manifestations" of God? Not Joseph Smith, but I've heard Investigate Truth say Noah and Abraham before. Is that true? And who else?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

One example: Christian, "Is Jesus God?"Baha'i, "No."..........

Baha'u'llah:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. " Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200

What are the "fundamental" teachings of the different religions?

Abdulbaha:

"the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muḥammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.


These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists. "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

 

[arthra]

For Didymus and those on the search for inter-religious understanding let me suggest two well authors who are non-Baha'is but who nonetheless share our ideals to a great extent...

Raimon Panikkar
and
Louis Masissignon

Pannikar's "The Vedic Experience" is priceless compilation of spiritual exploration of the oneness of Hindu scripture and western spirituality.

Louis Massignon explores the oneness of Islamic and Christian spirituality.

Research some of their works and I think you'll understand what we're discussing!

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth...

Did Krishna declare himself God or the incarnation of God? Did he declare himself to be the One God of the Christians and Jews? Or the incarnation of the God Vishnu of the Hindu religion?

..."the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muḥammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.

How does any of that describe Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and even Muhammad? Adam ate the forbidden fruit and got cursed. Noah built a boat then got drunk. Abraham heard a voice and almost killed his son. Moses killed a man and God almost killed him for not circumcising his son. And wasn't Muhammad a warrior prophet and had to kill a lot of people to promote his new religion?

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists. "

What then, were the Ten Commandments? The Bible says the Law is forever, meaning the Jewish Law. Not very many people follow those Laws. And it would be nice if those virtues remained and get established. But they are not established. And often times it is the leaders of religions that are the worst examples of following them. So how will God, through the Baha'i Faith, establish them when all other religions have not been able to convince people to be nice to each other?

 

[CG Didymus]

... I think the Baha'is should interpret their scripture as accepting homosexuality rather than condemning it. Christianity has done that all along, moving from a literal creation to an acceptance of evolution, among other adjustments. It's just a matter of interpretation.

I think even Islam will one day be able to see their harsher scriptures as figurative.

I was brought up at a time when I was told that to have "impure" thoughts was a mortal sin, that it was the devil getting into your head and trying to get you to do evil things... and that was for thinking about hetero sex! How many Christians, and now Baha'is, are suppressing their sexual feelings because they think it is "evil"? At least the Baha'is don't have a Satan/devil figure that they claim is always attacking us and tempting us. But, still, this is with hetero sex. Who can be that "pure" of thought and action? Who even wants to be? Of course, those that want to love God.

And that's the problem with religion, to love God with all your heart you're supposed to be sexually pure in thought and deed. I don't think it's possible. So homosexuals and hetero's... we're all in the same boat. We're all evil sinners in God's eye. I know a lot of screwed up Christians that darn near went crazy over this, straights and gays. They couldn't keep it in their pants. I suspect there are a few Baha'is that have this problem also. They could, I guess, do as so many of us did and pretend we're goody, goody Christians or Baha'is and keep our "ungodly" thoughts and "deviant" behaviors a secret.

 

[arthra]

...

As I said earlier, I think the Baha'is should interpret their scripture as accepting homosexuality rather than condemning it. ...
I think even Islam will one day be able to see their harsher scriptures as figurative.

Baha'is accept the interpretations of the Writings as given by Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi... You can see a synopsis of these interpretations at

Homosexuality, Bahá'í Writings on

The Universal House of Justice deals with issues that are outside the Writings and it gives deference to the interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

 

[arthra]

Didymus wrote above:

How does any of that describe Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and even Muhammad? Adam ate the forbidden fruit and got cursed. Noah built a boat then got drunk. Abraham heard a voice and almost killed his son. Moses killed a man and God almost killed him for not circumcising his son. And wasn't Muhammad a warrior prophet and had to kill a lot of people to promote his new religion?

My comment:

Baha'is believe the forbidden fruit story is not literal but allegorical..

Noah's ark is symbolic of the Covenant of believers in a disbelieving world.

Abraham was tested and on willing to offer His son "passed" the test and was spared having to do the sacrifice... In the Qur'an Abraham consults with His son who agrees with the sacrifice.

Moses did kill a guard in defending a slave .. See Exodus 2:11-12

Zipporah circumcized her son and averts wrath according to the story. Circumcision was a symbol of being in the covenant of Abraham..

In the case of Muhammad there were defensive actions taken after the early Muslim community was persecuted in Mecca for seven years.. They had to flee to Yathrib-Medina and were attacked there by the Meccan pagans.

If you'd like to read about the spread of Islam in the early I'd suggest reading the following text:

Preaching of Islam: A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith: T.W. Arnold: 9788175364035: Amazon.com: Books

 

[arthra]

Didymus wrote:

What then, were the Ten Commandments? The Bible says the Law is forever, meaning the Jewish Law. Not very many people follow those Laws. And it would be nice if those virtues remained and get established. But they are not established. And often times it is the leaders of religions that are the worst examples of following them. So how will God, through the Baha'i Faith, establish them when all other religions have not been able to convince people to be nice to each other?

My comment:

I would suggest that the "Ten Commandments" have had an influence on law in the West...through Judean Christian civilization... Jesus you'll recall further interpreted some of the laws in the Sermon on the Mount.

As to what the principles of the Baha'i Faith offer I would suggest the following..

Reduce killing by making war and persecutions illegal through bodies like the United Nations and the International Court of Arbitration and the Hague. Also see:

International Criminal Court - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[CG Didymus]

Didymus wrote above:

How does any of that describe Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and even Muhammad? Adam ate the forbidden fruit and got cursed. Noah built a boat then got drunk. Abraham heard a voice and almost killed his son. Moses killed a man and God almost killed him for not circumcising his son. And wasn't Muhammad a warrior prophet and had to kill a lot of people to promote his new religion?

My comment:

Baha'is believe the forbidden fruit story is not literal but allegorical..

Noah's ark is symbolic of the Covenant of believers in a disbelieving world.

Abraham was tested and on willing to offer His son "passed" the test and was spared having to do the sacrifice... In the Qur'an Abraham consults with His son who agrees with the sacrifice.

Moses did kill a guard in defending a slave .. See Exodus 2:11-12

Zipporah circumcized her son and averts wrath according to the story. Circumcision was a symbol of being in the covenant of Abraham..

In the case of Muhammad there were defensive actions taken after the early Muslim community was persecuted in Mecca for seven years.. They had to flee to Yathrib-Medina and were attacked there by the Meccan pagans.

If you'd like to read about the spread of Islam in the early I'd suggest reading the following text:

Preaching of Islam: A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith: T.W. Arnold: 9788175364035: Amazon.com: Books

Yes, but do they fulfill the requirements of being termed a "manifestation"? Even to the Jews, Moses was a fallible man.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I see that you are paying no attention at all to what I'm saying.

On the contrary, I answered your concern which YOU now seem to be ignoring.

Not sure why you are here, but I come here for dialogue.

Then you might TRY a bit more dialogue and a bit less throwaway insult like the above.

You complained that Baha'is claim to recognize all scripture whereas I posted a quote that demonstrates that there are indeed some we reject!

So rather than complaining, you might try addressing my point, viz.: we accept most but not ALL religion.


Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[Mormons] say an angel of God told Joseph Smith where to find the golden plates that he translated into the Book of Mormon. You believe the Quran is the true word of God?

So they do.

But we don't, as the quote I just posted makes clear.

And yes, we view the Qur'an as legitimate, God-sent scripture.

Oh, and one other thing, who has more followers? The Latter-Day Saints or the Baha'i Faith?

Irrelevant: we are the younger faith, and thus still smaller.

Bruce

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You complained that Baha'is claim to recognize all scripture whereas I posted a quote that demonstrates that there are indeed some we reject!

So rather than complaining, you might try addressing my point, viz.: we accept most but not ALL religion.

You still seem confused. If you want to go back and review the conversation and address what I've said, I'll rejoin you. If not, OK.

 

[CG Didymus]

So they do.
But we don't, as the quote I just posted makes clear.
And yes, we view the Qur'an as legitimate, God-sent scripture.
Irrelevant: we are the younger faith, and thus still smaller.
Bruce

Hey Bruce, thanks for your post. It is a touching subject and difficult to sort out all the claims the different sects and denominations of the different religions make. I'm glad to see that not all religious groups are considered as part of the "true" progression. As you can tell, I have a problem believing most, if not all, of the different religions even follow a progression. I can see a relationship between Hindu, Buddhist, Jain and Sikh. With Judaism, Christianity and Islam, I can see how the newer religion changes, and in a way, maybe, upgrades the previous. But I can also see why the older religion rejects the new supposed upgrade. And, now add to that the Baha'i Faith? The adherents of the older, established religions, unless they are unhappy with their religion, don't have any reason to change religions. Even the Mormons, it might be totally made up, but they are happy and thriving and most of them are good moral and ethical people, at least as good as anybody else in other religions.

So if the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today, why aren't more people recognizing this? The lack of posters in this thread from Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Moslems, and others shows a disinterest. Nobody cares. They don't even care enough to post anything, positive or negative. If you do have the Word of God for today, this is just sad. What does a manifestation have to do to get any respect? Die on a cross?

I know when I first got involved with the Baha'i Faith, there were claims of tumultuous times that were to lead to the "lesser" peace by the year 2000. Now I hear that those things weren't "official" Baha'i teachings. Is there, still, a calamity predicted before the world will recognize and come to follow the Baha'i Faith in greater numbers? Thanks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So if the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today, why aren't more people recognizing this? .

This is an excellent question. Baha'u'llah explained and identified why they do not recognize it. From my understanding I can put the reasons for not recognizing the truth in the following category based on Baha'i Scriptures:

1. People are not thirsty: People need to be thirsty in order to drink from the water. They are too much drawn in worldly things, therefore they are not thirsty for spiritual truth.

2. Fanaticism: People are too biased toward their beliefs that stops them from really investigating and accepting anything else.

3. Blind imitations: People have been following and obeying their religious leaders, instead of investigating truth independently.

4. It is against their desires: Since when a new religion is revealed, it abolishes the old ways, and old traditions, and replaces it with new one, that is against their desires.

 

[Muffled]

In our view there really is a succession and you can see this even if you read the Bible... which is a succession of revelations over time. The Qur'an further illustrates this by recounting the role of the various prophets.

Along with this are what are called Covenants which each Prophet has... The order comes something like this:

First is a revelatory experience..

Followed by a Message for the people of the time..

Followed by a Covenant and usually some laws or ordinances.

The spiritual truths of man's relationship to God are usually reinforced..

So Jesus emphasized the spiritual truths behind say the laws of Moses in the Sermon on the Mount and so on...

If by successeion one means later in date, I believe that would be true but baha'i will not supercede Christianity and Baha'i bails on Christianity only picking what it likes.

 

[Muffled]

This is an excellent question. Baha'u'llah explained and identified why they do not recognize it. From my understanding I can put the reasons for not recognizing the truth in the following category based on Baha'i Scriptures:

1. People are not thirsty: People need to be thirsty in order to drink from the water. They are too much drawn in worldly things, therefore they are not thirsty for spiritual truth.

2. Fanaticism: People are too biased toward their beliefs that stops them from really investigating and accepting anything else.

3. Blind imitations: People have been following and obeying their religious leaders, instead of investigating truth independently.

4. It is against their desires: Since when a new religion is revealed, it abolishes the old ways, and old traditions, and replaces it with new one, that is against their desires.

I don't believe it is bias when one has the truth as Peter said to Jesus "why would we leave, you have the words of truth." I investigate other faiths for the sake of debate but Ihave the Truth and have no need for something less than the the Truth.

 

[Desert Snake]

If by successeion one means later in date, I believe that would be true but baha'i will not supercede Christianity and Baha'i bails on Christianity only picking what it likes.

Yep.:yes:

But, whatever..