The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

[CG Didymus]

CG, your list of objections amounts to a random collection of topics that are almost hopelessly mixed together.

Some of it accurately describes us, some of it has nothing to do with Baha'i belief, and some assertions don't even agree with Christian doctrine if we stipulate that the Jewish scriptures are accurate!

I think you need to do more serious study and reading about the Baha'i Faith and exactly what it does and doesn't teach! This should enable you to ask clearer questions and better understand what the Faith is really about.

Bruce

As I'm sure you've studied all the religions and clearly see how the Baha'i Faith lines up perfectly. Yeah, right. It doesn't. It's new. It's different. And, most closely related to Islam. In fact, IMO it is a liberal form of Islam. Is that clear enough? And still, is the Koran correct in saying that a look-like died in place of Jesus? I assume yes, because you believe the Koran is more accurate than the NT, correct? Or, am I wrong?

 

[arthra]

As I'm sure you've studied all the religions and clearly see how the Baha'i Faith lines up perfectly. Yeah, right. It doesn't. It's new. It's different. And, most closely related to Islam. In fact, IMO it is a liberal form of Islam. Is that clear enough? And still, is the Koran correct in saying that a look-like died in place of Jesus? I assume yes, because you believe the Koran is more accurate than the NT, correct? Or, am I wrong?

Didymus wrote:

"And still, is the Koran correct in saying that a look-like died in place of Jesus?"

Actually the Baha'i view is that the Qur'an is correct but the interpretation of many Muslims is not...

The Qur'anic verse refers is 4:156 and reads as follows:


"And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."

'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

"In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"

Didymus wrote:


"In fact, IMO it is a liberal form of Islam. Is that clear enough?"


It may be a "fact" that this is your personal opinion but it is not accurate as the Baha'i Faith is independent of Islam having it's own calendar and Holy Days as well as Writings and places of pilgrimage.


You may also be interested in the following article:

Islam and the Bahá'í Faith

 

[CG Didymus]

Didymus wrote:

"And still, is the Koran correct in saying that a look-like died in place of Jesus?"

Actually the Baha'i view is that the Qur'an is correct but the interpretation of many Muslims is not...

The Qur'anic verse refers is 4:156 and reads as follows:


"And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."

'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

"In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"

Didymus wrote:


"In fact, IMO it is a liberal form of Islam. Is that clear enough?"


It may be a "fact" that this is your personal opinion but it is not accurate as the Baha'i Faith is independent of Islam having it's own calendar and Holy Days as well as Writings and places of pilgrimage.


You may also be interested in the following article:

Islam and the Bahá'í Faith

Thanks for your response. You always give great answers and great referrals for more information. The "fact", though, was meant for Bruce. With a response like "your list of objections amounts to a random collection of topics that are almost hopelessly mixed together" is the dumbest replay I've ever read from a Baha'i. Thank you for figuring out what I'm trying to ask and giving a well informed answer. If the Baha'is have the truth for today. If they believe all religions and all people are one, then none of them can afford to have empty headed answers. It makes the whole religion look bad. I've come to expect that kind of response from fundamental Christians. They'll say things like "you don't know because you can't know because you're blind to the truth of Jesus and until you know Jesus you can't know."

To make it simple for poor Bruce. None of the religions teach the same thing. So, therefore, I don't see how they came from the same source, the one and only God. Because they teach different things about God and what he wants, then how is that a progression that is similar to different grades in school?

Oh, wait, I know what he'll say. He'll say, "You're blind to the truth and will never see the truth until you open your eyes and see the truth." And I'll say, "Thanks for nothing." That's not school. That's not a progression. That's the same tired answers that so many Christians have given me for years. And each one of them taught something different about God and Jesus. And all of it was from the NT. Now the Baha'is have another interpretation? Of course the Baha'i version is the real truth. It's from God.

Now back to you Arthra, you're all right. Investigate Truth isn't too bad. That English Baha'i guy was pretty cool too. Thanks again for doing the best you can with my questions. I'm sure Bruce isn't a bad guy. His response just struck me the wrong way. I'll get over it in a day or two.

 

[arthra]

Didymus...

Thanks for your reply.. I realize you feel strongly that

None of the religions teach the same thing. So, therefore, I don't see how they came from the same source, the one and only God. Because they teach different things about God and what he wants, then how is that a progression that is similar to different grades in school?

So plainly we disagree on this.. My suggestion would be to frequent some inter-faith activities perhaps in your own community and find out where there is some common ground among the great world religions.

Explore some of the strides being made to find a common ground among the religions:

ABOUT US / Our Mission | Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions

 

[BruceDLimber]

[to Art] Thank you for figuring out what I'm trying to ask and giving a well informed answer.

Very simply, my point holds: you get a better answer (as you did from Art) if you ask a better question, something you had NOT done with the post to which I replied!

Nor did you address my point that your supposedly Christian doctrine directly contradicts a clear statement in the Jewish scriptures (something all too many Christians--though not all of them--overlook).

None of the religions teach the same thing. So, therefore, I don't see how they came from the same source, the one and only God. Because they teach different things about God and what he wants, then how is that a progression that is similar to different grades in school?

Oh, wait, I know what he'll say. He'll say, "You're blind to the truth and will never see the truth until you open your eyes and see the truth."

Once again, you presume too much (while being very good at hurling insults that contribute nothing to the dialogue).

The Baha'i scriptures explain this very nicely if you simply take the time to examine them:

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."

—(Gleanings, CXI, pp. 217-8 [emphasis added])

I trust this is clearer now.

Bruce

 

[InvestigateTruth]

... None of the religions teach the same thing. So, therefore, I don't see how they came from the same source, the one and only God.

Even though I don't like to repeat something over and over, but I have to. In Baha'i view All Religions fundamentally teach the same thing. Because in our view All the Religion teach:

"...faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen. "


Now, if we look at different religions being Hindu, or Christianity, the above is really the foundation of all religions that they are built on.

Because they teach different things about God and what he wants, then how is that a progression that is similar to different grades in school?

Fundamentally they teach the same as I have listed above and what God wants in every Age is the same fundamentally. He wants to teach us trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience.....
Of course there is another part of religion that is not the foundation, but it has to do with social laws and everyday material life. Those laws such as marriage, divorce, punishment for thieves can change from Age to Age, to suit the Age. But these Laws are not 'the foundation or fundamental part of religion'. Therefore in our view, these differences in no wise mean that these religions were from different sources. No! all are from one God.

'the Progressiveness' can also be seen in these Laws. For example Moses Law allowed having more that 4 wives. Jesus did not change or put any limit in this. Muhammad limited that to 4 wives...and Baha'i Faith law allows only one wife. Or the Law of slavery....Previous religions did not forbid trades of slaves, but Baha'i Laws did. That previous Manifestations did not forbid slavery in previous Ages, is not related to their own knowledge, but it was related to the fact that humanity was not ready to abolish slavery all the sudden in old ages. Hence God gradually made us more understanding, until in this Age we can be told slavery is forbidden.

 

[CG Didymus]

...In Baha'i view All Religions fundamentally teach the same thing.

From a site on Buddhism:

Did the Buddha believe in God, the One God of the desert, the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims?
Well... No... He didn't... Monotheism (only one God) was a foreign concept to the Buddha, his world was filled with many gods. The creator god Brahma being the most important one.

[FONT=&quot]The most fundamental teaching of religion should be about who is God. None of the religions are consistent. The "one" God concept was not known by the Buddha.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

There is also nothing in the teachings of the Buddha that suggest how to find God or worship the god's of India, although the Buddha himself was a theist (believed in gods), his teachings are non-theistic.

A fundamental teaching seems like it should be, How do we find God and how to worship him. It's not part of what Buddha taught.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Please be clear on this point... The Buddha is not thought of as a god in Buddhism and is not prayed to. He is looked up to and respected as a great teacher, in the same way we respect Abraham Lincoln as a great president.
He was a human being who found his perfection in Nirvana.

[FONT=&quot]Buddhists don't considered Buddha a manifestation. Buddhism can be viewed as a progression from Hindu beliefs. But how do you tie it in with the "One" God concept of the Abrahamic religions?

[/FONT]

 

[Muffled]

Well, others think they have the truth too. In our view truth is like the sun, it comes every day, not just once.

Oh I remembered to add one more reason:


5. Superstitions.

I believe thinking one has the truth and having it are two different things. Jesus said "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life."

 

[Muffled]

Since that was from the NT, let's apply it to Christianity. Which denomination or sect of Christianity has proven itself by producing "good" fruits?

I believe any denominatioon that teached a person must receive Jesus as Lord and Savior would show that proof. I know The Southern Baptist Convention teaches this and I am sure there are others.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Buddhism:[FONT=&quot]The "one" God concept was not known by the Buddha.[/FONT]

Before you rush to claim this, you should read The God of Buddha by J. Fozdar, as well as noting the following quotes from the Buddhist scriptures:

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move."
—(Udana 8:3)

Sounds like God to us!

and

"The one who does not desire anything,
"But directly knows even the uncreated;
"Not satisfied, such a one breaks off any
"Possibility for rebirth by swallowing
"What he has made. Such one is the Supreme!"
--Dhammapada 9

Buddhist scriptures also speak of "gods and men."

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Muffled]

Didymus wrote:

"And still, is the Koran correct in saying that a look-like died in place of Jesus?"

Actually the Baha'i view is that the Qur'an is correct but the interpretation of many Muslims is not...

The Qur'anic verse refers is 4:156 and reads as follows:


"And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."

'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

"In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"

Didymus wrote:


"In fact, IMO it is a liberal form of Islam. Is that clear enough?"


It may be a "fact" that this is your personal opinion but it is not accurate as the Baha'i Faith is independent of Islam having it's own calendar and Holy Days as well as Writings and places of pilgrimage.


You may also be interested in the following article:

Islam and the Bahá'í Faith

It reads this way in the Ali translation: 4:157 That they said in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"; — ut they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: —

I believe this interpretation is flawed in that the Spirit is joined to the body and would experience death if it remained there. However the Bible does indicate that the Spirit of God left before the body died. However he was correct in saying the Spirit did not experience death if that is what he really meant.

I believe Baha'i is an amlgram of Islam and Christianity mainly. As such it doesn't qualify as either Islam or Christianity.

 

[arthra]

It reads this way in the Ali translation: 4:157 That they said in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"; — ut they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: —

I believe this interpretation is flawed in that the Spirit is joined to the body and would experience death if it remained there. However the Bible does indicate that the Spirit of God left before the body died. However he was correct in saying the Spirit did not experience death if that is what he really meant.

I believe Baha'i is an amlgram of Islam and Christianity mainly. As such it doesn't qualify as either Islam or Christianity.

Thanks for your post! Baha'is see their Faith as an independent dispensation with it's own Writings, Holy Days, Calendar and pilgrimage places...so we don't see ourselves as an "amalgam" but in reference to the crucifixion of Jesus we accept that as having happened... The words "so it was made to appear to them" implies that the crowd and the executioners thought they had put an end to the nascent faith and "killed" the Messiah.

We know differently of course. We believe in a spiritual resurrection of Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

We know differently of course. We believe in a spiritual resurrection of Jesus.

But that's not what most Christians are taught to believe. They are taught that the NT says that Jesus bodily rose from the dead. To make it clear, are they wrong? That's 2000 years of wrong teaching by Catholics and Orthodox and then most Protestants? When the NT says people saw him, and Thomas touched him, they are plainly claiming he, Jesus was alive. What power? What purpose does Christianity have if that isn't true? If he did die and only his Spirit, which is eternal, lived on, then why do they make such a fuss over the empty tomb? What happened to his physical body?

 

[CG Didymus]

Before you rush to claim this...
"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not... there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. (Udana 8:3)

Sounds like God to us!

Before I claim? The quote is from a Buddhist. Is he wrong? Is he misinterpreting his own religion? When it says "escape" are they talking about breaking free of the cycle of rebirth? When they do break free and reach nirvana, do they become "one" with this spirit energy? If that is the unknowable "God", then do you believe people can become "one" with the real God in the sense that they are God? Kind of like what some Christians believe Jesus is?

 

[BruceDLimber]

There are different groups of Buddhists, and not all accept or believe ths same things.

In any case, IOV no, one can never become God (or a god).

Peace,

Bruce

 

[CG Didymus]

In trying to figure out this progression thing, I was reading a site on Hinduism, and it said that Hinduism had no founder. I was wondering then, who do the Baha'is say was the manifestation that started Hinduism?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In trying to figure out this progression thing, I was reading a site on Hinduism, and it said that Hinduism had no founder. I was wondering then, who do the Baha'is say was the manifestation that started Hinduism?

I haven't found anything in Baha'i scriptures who started Hinduism, but Baha'is recognize Krishna as a Manifestation of God (maybe even the founder)

But interestingly, you can find in Hindu scriptures there was a manifestation of God who was like a fish, which I think is compatible with Baha'i belief.

 

[CG Didymus]

I haven't found anything in Baha'i scriptures who started Hinduism, but Baha'is recognize Krishna as a Manifestation of God (maybe even the founder)...

The thing I was reading about Hinduism said that Krishna was one of many incarnations of Lord Vishnu. Again, that incarnation thing. Actually this whole religious thing isn't like school to me, it's more like a great mystery with lots of clues, many of which lead the wrong way or on long detours.

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for your post! Baha'is see their Faith as an independent dispensation with it's own Writings, Holy Days, Calendar and pilgrimage places...so we don't see ourselves as an "amalgam" but in reference to the crucifixion of Jesus we accept that as having happened... The words "so it was made to appear to them" implies that the crowd and the executioners thought they had put an end to the nascent faith and "killed" the Messiah.

We know differently of course. We believe in a spiritual resurrection of Jesus.

I believe the writings are nothing new and reflect thinking about Islam and Christianity and sometimes other religions. IMO God isn't as wordy and doesn't use confusing language even when saying parables. I would liken the writings to those of a guru.

I believe you can see from this why I believe Baha'i is not true to Christianity.

 

[CG Didymus]

In the whole "progression" thing, I thought I'd look up Jainism. It has some significant differences to Hinduism and Buddhism. Where do Baha'i place Jainism?