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The Bahai interpretation of Jesus, the crucifixion, and him in the Qur'an

firedragon

Veteran Member
I know him as Harun Yahya - having watched a few of his programmes on an Islamic TV channel (while still a Catholic), in my very early explorations of Islam. I've not read any of his works, and so cannot comment on them.

What would he add to this discussion?

I was asking you if your post was of his origin because I recognised it from somewhere. Was just checking.

Anyway, I was an ardent fan of Harun Yahya books since I was schooling. His work is actually a concerted effort of a group of educated university students and graduates really. But they did some great work. Some of the research were truly remarkable. Very few ardent writers can top that. Bahai's use his work a lot for certain instances like when he claims the prophecies about the Mehdi was Mutawathir. Now in this matter, he was wrong. Only the next day I realised he was making the case to claim himself to be the Mehdi.

Anyway, you should read some of his work. They are pretty good. They are not scholarly, but scientific and research based.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
I was asking you if your post was of his origin because I recognised it from somewhere. Was just checking.

No. I always quote my sources.

The originators of my posts are the Qur'an, the scholars I've cited...and Niblo! :)

I've had this discussion before, with Adrian on this site (as I recall), and on other forums over the years. You may well have come across them there.

I shall add Harun Yahya to the list of Mehdis :rolleyes:.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
No. I always quote my sources.

The originators of my posts are the Qur'an, the scholars I've cited...and Niblo! :)

I've had this discussion before, with Adrian on this site (as I recall), and on other forums over the years. You may well have come across them there.

I shall add Harun Yahya to the list of Mehdis :rolleyes:.

Yeah. Oktar claimed to be the Mehdi.

Anyway, I would like to point to one thing in your post that you may like to consider.

The verse in concern, 4:157, it says Shubbiha which is what has been translated as "it was made to appear so". This Shubbiha comes from Shubh which means dual, not so sure, vague. Also, when it says what it says, it does not say "who did it". When an English translator translates it as "it was made to appear so" it does not necessarily mean a visual appearance. The English word "Appear" is not the correct word that replaces Shabah. One word does not really suffice. Thus, when someone says "it was made to appear so" many English readers would immediately grasp it as a visual appearance.

This word does not mean "Made to believe". But the correct interpretation would be "it was made to seem like". Or "Made to believe".

And it does not say "Who made it seem like they killed Jesus". Some people have a tendency to think God did it. But the verse doesnt say that anywhere. Only instance God is cited is in the immediate next verse. Not in this.

Also one must note that the latter part of the verse says very clearly, that anyone who doubts that Jesus was not crucified are not out of "Ilm" or "knowledge" but "Azzaani" or just "conjecture".

It isa absolutely clear.

Peace.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There was never any dispute that Jesus was crucified. It is an event clearly recorded in all four Gospels as well as non-biblical sources such as Josephus. Crucifixion is a well documented method the Romans used to crucify criminals. There is nothing supernatural or extraordinary about it. Most historians of antiquity agree that Jesus was indeed crucified.

The resurrection and ascension of Jesus is an extraordinary event that requires supernatural powers. It relies on an obsolete cosmology. There is no accounts beyond the NT that document these extraordinary events. The empty tomb is simply part of an allegorical story.
From the beginning of the gospel stories to the end, they are filled with "extraordinary" events. A star that moves until it reaches where the baby Jesus is, then it stops? God speaking from heaven and saying that this is my beloved son. Bringing people back to life. Turning water into wine. Feeding 5000 with some bread and a few fish. Walking on water and having Peter also walk on water. He stopped a storm. Then, all the healings that he did? Have you seen or know of a healing where leprosy disappeared? Or, a blind eye made to see again? If they are real, and God does miraculously heal people, and if he created life out of nothing, then why couldn't God bring Jesus back to life?

Or, are all the claims of miracle healings are all fake? And God doesn't do those kinds of things, even though, theoretically, he could? Either way, just because the oral traditions got passed down that Jesus did these healings and walked on water and rose from the dead, doesn't mean they really happened. His followers could have easily made up those stories. And same with the Jewish Bible... All those things could have been easily made up. But, what's strange, is the spiritual and social laws Baha'is believe that those are real and came from God? Why? Why not the whole thing just a made up thing? Made up Gods, made up demons, made up laws, made up everything?

But no, Baha'is don't say that and don't believe that. In this case the Baha'i Faith says that Jesus was indeed crucified, so that is what the truth is... no matter what the Quran says. Baha'is then find the easiest explanation to reconcile the contradiction... It was talking about the spirit of Jesus didn't die. Like I said, that is not very profound. Who's spirit dies when their body dies? And that's my problem with the Baha'i Faith... it makes the Bible, and now the Quran too, true and God's Word when it agrees with them, but "symbolic" when it contradicts them.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
From the beginning of the gospel stories to the end, they are filled with "extraordinary" events. A star that moves until it reaches where the baby Jesus is, then it stops? God speaking from heaven and saying that this is my beloved son. Bringing people back to life. Turning water into wine. Feeding 5000 with some bread and a few fish. Walking on water and having Peter also walk on water. He stopped a storm. Then, all the healings that he did? Have you seen or know of a healing where leprosy disappeared? Or, a blind eye made to see again? If they are real, and God does miraculously heal people, and if he created life out of nothing, then why couldn't God bring Jesus back to life?

Or, are all the claims of miracle healings are all fake? And God doesn't do those kinds of things, even though, theoretically, he could? Either way, just because the oral traditions got passed down that Jesus did these healings and walked on water and rose from the dead, doesn't mean they really happened. His followers could have easily made up those stories. And same with the Jewish Bible... All those things could have been easily made up. But, what's strange, is the spiritual and social laws Baha'is believe that those are real and came from God? Why? Why not the whole thing just a made up thing? Made up Gods, made up demons, made up laws, made up everything?

But no, Baha'is don't say that and don't believe that. In this case the Baha'i Faith says that Jesus was indeed crucified, so that is what the truth is... no matter what the Quran says. Baha'is then find the easiest explanation to reconcile the contradiction... It was talking about the spirit of Jesus didn't die. Like I said, that is not very profound. Who's spirit dies when their body dies? And that's my problem with the Baha'i Faith... it makes the Bible, and now the Quran too, true and God's Word when it agrees with them, but "symbolic" when it contradicts them.

I have lost all respect to all the Bahai apologists here. Completely. There is no consistency, no intellectual honesty, no logical verity.

They will try proselytisation even if the thread is about a pin, but when the thread is about the faith, they can only engage in as you said "they agree with Gods word as long as it doesnt contradict anyone down to effendi, when it does, it becomes allegorical, or it means exactly the opposite". When I say the "opposite" I mean the exact "opposite".

A website should not be God. God alone, should be God.

Peace.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Yeah. Oktar claimed to be the Mehdi.

Anyway, I would like to point to one thing in your post that you may like to consider.

The verse in concern, 4:157, it says Shubbiha which is what has been translated as "it was made to appear so". This Shubbiha comes from Shubh which means dual, not so sure, vague. Also, when it says what it says, it does not say "who did it". When an English translator translates it as "it was made to appear so" it does not necessarily mean a visual appearance. The English word "Appear" is not the correct word that replaces Shabah. One word does not really suffice. Thus, when someone says "it was made to appear so" many English readers would immediately grasp it as a visual appearance.

This word does not mean "Made to believe". But the correct interpretation would be "it was made to seem like". Or "Made to believe".

And it does not say "Who made it seem like they killed Jesus". Some people have a tendency to think God did it. But the verse doesnt say that anywhere. Only instance God is cited is in the immediate next verse. Not in this.

Also one must note that the latter part of the verse says very clearly, that anyone who doubts that Jesus was not crucified are not out of "Ilm" or "knowledge" but "Azzaani" or just "conjecture".

It isa absolutely clear.

Peace.

I understand. Thank you.

By the way, Oktar cannot possibly be the Mehdi......I am :)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I have lost all respect to all the Bahai apologists here. Completely. There is no consistency, no intellectual honesty, no logical verity.

They will try proselytisation even if the thread is about a pin, but when the thread is about the faith, they can only engage in as you said "they agree with Gods word as long as it doesnt contradict anyone down to effendi, when it does, it becomes allegorical, or it means exactly the opposite". When I say the "opposite" I mean the exact "opposite".

A website should not be God. God alone, should be God.

Peace.
I'd have more respect for the Baha'i Faith if Baha'is could say, "No, the Bible is wrong," or "In the case, the Quran is wrong," but they can't. But, by making it "symbolic", they are essentially saying that the Bible and the Quran are wrong. With the resurrection, I have no problem if they said that the disciples made it up. But, instead, they ignore any verse that says that Jesus showed himself to be alive or that he had flesh and bone and write off all the post-crucifixion verses as suddenly going from reporting what happened to coming up with an allegorical story about a resurrected Jesus. But I know they don't believe people came out of their graves, and I'm sure other things that happened during the crucifixion, so even then, they pick and choose what's real and historical and what is symbolic.

And I understand that it makes sense to them. They have a bigger purpose... trying to unite all the different people and religions of the world. And they can't do that by calling any of the major religions false. They all must, somehow, be true... just not literally true. Your questions and even my questions can't be answered easily and honestly. The best and only answer they can give is to say, "Our prophets say it was symbolic, therefore it was."
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'd have more respect for the Baha'i Faith if Baha'is could say, "No, the Bible is wrong," or "In the case, the Quran is wrong,"

Honestly, I absolutely agree with you.

The thing is, Bahaullah, and effendi says the Quran is Gods word. So if they say the Quran is wrong, they have to also say Bahaullah and Effendi was wrong.

I'd have more respect for the Baha'i Faith if Baha'is could say, "No, the Bible is wrong," or "In the case, the Quran is wrong," but they can't. But, by making it "symbolic", they are essentially saying that the Bible and the Quran are wrong. With the resurrection, I have no problem if they said that the disciples made it up. But, instead, they ignore any verse that says that Jesus showed himself to be alive or that he had flesh and bone and write off all the post-crucifixion verses as suddenly going from reporting what happened to coming up with an allegorical story about a resurrected Jesus. But I know they don't believe people came out of their graves, and I'm sure other things that happened during the crucifixion, so even then, they pick and choose what's real and historical and what is symbolic.

And I understand that it makes sense to them. They have a bigger purpose... trying to unite all the different people and religions of the world. And they can't do that by calling any of the major religions false. They all must, somehow, be true... just not literally true. Your questions and even my questions can't be answered easily and honestly. The best and only answer they can give is to say, "Our prophets say it was symbolic, therefore it was."

I agree with you. That is their dilemma.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I'd have more respect for the Baha'i Faith if Baha'is could say, "No, the Bible is wrong," or "In the case, the Quran is wrong," but they can't. But, by making it "symbolic", they are essentially saying that the Bible and the Quran are wrong. With the resurrection, I have no problem if they said that the disciples made it up. But, instead, they ignore any verse that says that Jesus showed himself to be alive or that he had flesh and bone and write off all the post-crucifixion verses as suddenly going from reporting what happened to coming up with an allegorical story about a resurrected Jesus. But I know they don't believe people came out of their graves, and I'm sure other things that happened during the crucifixion, so even then, they pick and choose what's real and historical and what is symbolic.

And I understand that it makes sense to them. They have a bigger purpose... trying to unite all the different people and religions of the world. And they can't do that by calling any of the major religions false. They all must, somehow, be true... just not literally true. Your questions and even my questions can't be answered easily and honestly. The best and only answer they can give is to say, "Our prophets say it was symbolic, therefore it was."
What you might want to consider is, the Quran, itself says, some of its verses are symbolic. 3:7
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What you might want to consider is, the Quran, itself says, some of its verses are symbolic. 3:7
Okay, which ones? It seems like with the NT and the Bible it is any verse that isn't "scientific". So you write off the whole resurrection story as being symbolic, even though it is written as if it is historical fact. I don't know about the Quran, but with the Bible it would mean that God "inspired" the gospel writers all to write a resurrection story? I don't think so. Did the writers know that God was telling them an allegorical story? That God told them that there were several witnesses that saw Jesus alive? That God told them to write that the tomb was empty? I think it is much more likely, if not true, that legends and traditions about Jesus kept growing and finally got written down. And what were the people to do? Doubt the disciples and gospel writers? And what were they doing? Especially the disciples... they were the supposed witnesses that claimed to have seen the risen Christ. How could they, with a straight face, not tell the people that the resurrection was an allegory?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Christ is in science Gods spirits only.

Means science of earth history.

A planet.

CH gases arise arose as it is a history only. Status defined mass.

Bahai teaching by star watch asteroid wanderer saviour stone as God returned states....

I observed by psychic mind body changes natural living conditions changed that the God messenger being stone had now replaced after a long history of human life irradiated sacrificed it's cold gas mass.

CH cold gases now present. As mass. CH gases only lost a body as Ch mass was still present. Otherwise we all would have died.

To remove Christ in science was by maths is by mass only. One body gone DNA irradiation effect witnessed. Causes stated.

A body of mass said science was removed by pyramid temple science.

A new asteroid saviour had to arrive as a messenger as the previous messenger that gave life DNA supported healing had been removed. As the wandering star witnessed at birth Jesus.

Jesus was a God stone body messenger delivering earths God back its gases healing was notified in life. Science destroyed its return proven.

Exactly what was observed.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
That Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was raised alive – both body and soul – is made clear by the use of the word ‘bal’ in verse 158 (‘…… they certainly did not kill him – Nay! (‘bal’), Allāh raised him up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’).

Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri explains that when the term ‘bal’, which he renders ‘on the contrary’:

‘Comes after a sentence expressing a negativity, then, according to the rules of Arabic linguistics, the sentence following it must mean the exact opposite of the one preceding it. The opposite of death is life. This is a requirement of the rules of linguistics

‘If we say that "the ascension here is a spiritual one" and "the Prophet Jesus (as) died in the normal sense," then we are violating that rule. In that case, the ascension following the expression "on the contrary" would not represent the opposite to the verbs of "killing" and "crucifying" in the negative sentence preceding it. That is because it may be possible for a person to be killed and for his or her soul to rise to the skies. Otherwise, this term would be meaningless, and there are no meaningless terms in the Qur'an …

‘According to those who support the thesis that the ascension is only one of the soul, the meaning of the verse is this: "They did not kill him and did not crucify him … on the contrary (‘bal’), Allah raised his station." There is no particular oratory here, let alone succinctness … No rational person could take the words "The elevator in my building raises me to the fourth floor every day," to mean that I am only raised to the fourth floor in spirit. Therefore, neither was the Prophet Jesus (as) raised only in spirit. (‘Position of Reason’; my emphasis).

Referring to this same verse, Said Ramadan al-Buti writes:

‘The mutual compatibility between the verses’ previous and later sections necessarily reveals a fact. For example, if an Arab says: "I am not hungry; on the contrary, I am lying on my side," this is not a correct sentence. In the same way, there is a discrepancy between the components in the sentence: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is a good man." What would be correct is to say: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is alive." …… The term bal expresses a contradiction between the preceding and the following words. In other words, bal cancels out a previous statement. (Islamic Catechism: page 338).

Equally correct are the words: ‘Yeshua did not die; on the contrary (‘bal’), he was raised alive.’

Concerning the words: ‘Allāh raised (‘rafaʿahu’) him up to Himself.’

The word ‘raise’ renders ‘rafa‘a’ (‘to raise’) rather than ‘ba‘atha’, which is used elsewhere in the Qur’an to mean ‘to resurrect’ after death. Commenting on this, Abu Musa al-Ash'ari writes:

‘There is a consensus among the community of the faithful that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised alive to the heavens.’ (‘al-Ibana 'an Usul al-Diyana); and Hasan Basri Cantay writes: ‘Allah raised and lifted up the Prophet Jesus (as) in both body and soul.’ (Tafsir of the Qur'an); and Imam ibn Taymiyya writes: ‘The verse "He raised him to His Presence" … explains that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised in both body and soul.’ (Majmu' Fatawa).

Citing Al-Nisa' 157-158, Zahid al-Kawthari claims that the ascension of Yeshua is beyond doubt: ‘That is because the basic meaning of the word rafa'a in the verses is transportation from below to above. There is no element here that could be used to interpret the verses metaphorically. Therefore, there is no evidence for seeking to produce a meaning in the sense of ascension in honour and station.’ (Nazra 'Abira fi Maza'im; page 93; my emphasis).

In order to show that the Qur’an supports the New Testament narrative one must find other Qur’anic verses that contradict Al-Nisa: 155-158. There are none.

So, In your view, according to the Quran, what happened to Jesus?

1. Was He killed?
2. God caused Him to die, as a natural death?
3. He did not die. God took Him physically up. He is alive.


I am just curious. Which one is it?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Okay, which ones? It seems like with the NT and the Bible it is any verse that isn't "scientific". So you write off the whole resurrection story as being symbolic, even though it is written as if it is historical fact. I don't know about the Quran, but with the Bible it would mean that God "inspired" the gospel writers all to write a resurrection story? I don't think so. Did the writers know that God was telling them an allegorical story? That God told them that there were several witnesses that saw Jesus alive? That God told them to write that the tomb was empty? I think it is much more likely, if not true, that legends and traditions about Jesus kept growing and finally got written down. And what were the people to do? Doubt the disciples and gospel writers? And what were they doing? Especially the disciples... they were the supposed witnesses that claimed to have seen the risen Christ. How could they, with a straight face, not tell the people that the resurrection was an allegory?
Neither the Quran or the Bible say, verse by verse, which one is symbolic and which one is literal history.

But, certainly there are verses both in the Quran and the Bible denoting that there are also symbolic verses in these Holy Books.

It is just the matter of correct interpretation in each verse or passage.

I just wanted to point out that, the Bahai belief regarding some verses of Holy Books being symbolic is exactly what those previous Books had said.
Of course, we may not agree which story or verse is symbolic and which one is not. But all we can do, is to share our views.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
So, In your view, according to the Quran, what happened to Jesus?

1. Was He killed?
2. God caused Him to die, as a natural death?
3. He did not die. God took Him physically up. He is alive.


I am just curious. Which one is it?

3. He did not die. God took Him physically up. He is alive.

This is not my view. It is the Exalted's revealed truth....which I accept, without reservation.

So, as a Bahai - and self-proclaimed believer in the Qur'an - what, in your view, happened to Yeshua?

1. Was He killed?
2. The Exalted caused Him to die, as a natural death?
3. He did not die. The Exalted took Him physically up. He is alive.

I am just curious. Which one is it?
 
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