Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I am not playing this game with you.
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The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
We Never Know
No Slack
That may eventually happen with Lin Yu-Ting.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
OK, if they are otherwise in the same weight and height bracket. I mean, I have no idea whether or not they are.
Augustus
…
This is not a trans issue or a US culture war issue.
It has basically been accepted by the IOC that they are biological males with DSDs, not females with high testosterone. Like Caster Semenya, they were probably assigned the wrong sex at birth, raised as girls then underwent male puberty.
While it’s very hard on them to be dragged through this in public, the IOC rules currently accept males who have gone through male puberty can fight females as long as their passport says female.
The problem is the lack of transparency in the IOC governance. It’s not the fault of the 2 boxers, but imo it is poor governance.
It’s better to look at the rules rather than individuals.
There are 2 options:
1. You say inclusion matters most and include people based on gender or legal identity.
2. You consider that female sport is a protected category, and that it is protected against male athletic advantage that results from both testosterone and puberty. If you do this you need to test for eligibility. Swimming already does this as part of the protocol that includes anti doping. It’s just a cheek swab.
As it is a subjective ethical judgement, your preference is up to you. If you favour the first, you need to be open and honest about the fact you accept a significant increase in risk of serious injury (or even death) to female boxers who fight those who have gone through male puberty. There is no win-win solution, no moral high ground of good and bad. Inclusion will increase life changing injuries and deaths in the long run. That’s just a fact based on what physics and biology tell us.
The level of strength difference between male and female is akin to the strength difference between a lightweight and heavyweight of the same sex. It wouldn’t be “fat phobic” to prevent a heavyweight fighting in the lightweight category, it would be a simple and very obvious safety consideration.
I personally think that the risk of life changing injury along with fairness makes the 2nd option more ethical.
That is my opinion and I can’t claim it is objectively right. I also think that it is unethical to tell female boxers they must accept the increased risk or they can’t enter the Olympics.
I certainly wouldn’t want any female I cared about fighting someone with male athletic advantage anyway.
If you prioritise safety, she should be fighting males at a significantly lower level of competition.
Safety is based on sex not gender identity.
If you prioritise inclusion she can fight whoever she likes.
We Never Know
No Slack
I have no idea either. You said "Hopefully someone else like her" so I threw that name out because evidently they are alike being both have the same controversy going on. .
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Who knows.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Except that they probably did not undergo male puberty. XY,46 Complete Gonadal Dysgenesis or Swyer Syndrome, results in people that do not under go puberty, neither male nor female puberty:
"Clinical description
Patients are born with typical female appearing external genitalia as well as the presence of a uterus and fallopian tubes. They often present during adolescence or early adulthood with lack of pubertal development although adrenarche is normal. Completely undeveloped streak gonads are present and are associated with an increased risk of abdominal tumors (most commonly dysgerminoma), which may be the presenting feature in some cases. Stature is normal or above normal, and features of Turner syndrome are absent."
Orphanet: 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis
You may be misled by the pictures of Khelim and make the error of comparing her to non athletes. What you should do is to look at how muscular other cis female athletes appear. Sprinters make her look not all that muscular at all:
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
They won't do a "simple blood test" because that gives a false answer. One needs to consider more than just a blood test.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Actually I got a decent DNA test via a saliva swab. It was easy, and it told me my sex too.
We Never Know
No Slack
Only decent? They are over 99% accurate.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I'm hedging my bets so to speak. Anyway, it was super easy.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
So what? You were not doing the test to see if you could compete fairly or not. Such a test would be worthless in the Olympics.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Well of course it would, especially since I did it at home. It could have been saliva from my dog for all they knew.
Augustus
…
Except that they probably did not undergo male puberty. XY,46 Complete Gonadal Dysgenesis or Swyer Syndrome, results in people that do not under go puberty, neither male nor female puberty:
"Clinical description
Patients are born with typical female appearing external genitalia as well as the presence of a uterus and fallopian tubes. They often present during adolescence or early adulthood with lack of pubertal development although adrenarche is normal. Completely undeveloped streak gonads are present and are associated with an increased risk of abdominal tumors (most commonly dysgerminoma), which may be the presenting feature in some cases. Stature is normal or above normal, and features of Turner syndrome are absent."
Orphanet: 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis
www.orpha.net
You may be misled by the pictures of Khelim and make the error of comparing her to non athletes. What you should do is to look at how muscular other cis female athletes appear. Sprinters make her look not all that muscular at all:
View attachment 95261View attachment 95262
I’m not basing anything off pictures.
That they have undergone male puberty has never been denied and, based on IOC statements, is the most probable explanation of the case is they have.
But seeing as medical confidentiality prevents specific disclosure by anyone other than the athletes it is better to look at the rules as they are not the individuals. It’s not their fault, they have done nothing wrong. They are clearly eligible under IOC rules (but wouldn’t be under IBA rules as they are biologically male). Interestingly they wouldn’t be eligible for Olympic swimming but are for the most dangerous example of favouring inclusion over fairness and safety.
As the rule stands males who have undergone a (near) full male puberty can fight females.
The science is pretty clear on the risks this entails.
For me that is an ethical failure by the IOC, especially as they are being disingenuous about their rules and the risks.
Augustus
…
It is already used at the Olympics for exactly that reason, just for swimming not boxing. It works very well.
It’s usually the conservatives who like to deny basic science.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
What are you talking about? The IOC has never said that she went through puberty. Medical sources say that people with this trait tend to not have undergone puberty. I gave evidence that she would not have gone through male puberty. I could find more since I have read articles that say that. You only have your uninformed and unsupported opinion.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Please support your claims properly. The American swimmer that got banned was banned because he went through male puberty and had too large of an advantage. That was not just a simple sex test. He was trans. You seem to be conflating intersex with trans.
Augustus
…
The form of DSD hasn't been stated. It seems more likely to be 5ARD or PAIS.
The IBA has said it, the IOC (accidentally) confirmed it was DSD, when specifically questioned (by a Guardian journalist, so not exactly a right wing culture warrior) on male puberty regarding the 2 athletes the spokesperson tap danced around the issue and basically just said they are eligible based on passports. In another statement, they said the IBA test were unacceptable because they were 'arbitrary', not that they were wrong or carried out by an unaccredited lab. The fact is the tests were carried out in an accredited lab, and neither boxer disputed the test results.
The assumption of many well connected people in journalism and sport (none of whom are American or even notably conservative) seem to consider this most probable. Given the IBA has tested the athletes and knows the results, it's quite likely they have been leaked.
But as I said, it's not their fault and as they have not chosen to release the results people can always speculate.
The problem is not these 2 boxers, but the rules that allow biological males who have undergone basically a full male puberty to fight in women's boxing. Focus on these 2 kind of misses the point that the IOC are the ones responsible for unethical governance (imo at least) by exposing people to risk while trying to keep it hidden.
If you are interested in a discussion by a leading expert whois a professor of sports science and has been involved in creating international sporting regulations on this topic:
Paris 2024: Males Are About To Fight in Women's Boxing. How Did We Get Here? | The Real Science of Sport Podcast
Controversy in Paris as biological males compete in women's boxing and football. We explore the issues
shows.acast.com
It's a very interesting, balanced and scientific discussion and explains the situation in a very clear and rational manner. It has nothing to do with US domestic politics and no one involved is American if you are worried about that.
I'm not conflating anything, I just know what the rules are.
Swimming (and other sports like cycling) defines sex based on chromosomes and requires athletes to be tested for this to confirm eligibility. These 2 boxers would have to compete in male swimming events:
All athletes must certify their chromosomal sex with their Member Federation in order to be eligible for FINA competitions. Failure to do so, or provision of a false certification, will render the athlete ineligible. ... FINA reserves the right to include a chromosomal sex screen in its antidoping protocol to confirm such certification...
All male athletes, including athletes with 46 XY DSD, are eligible to compete in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the men’s category, regardless of their legal gender, gender identity, or gender expression.