The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer

[icehorse]

The definition of haram seems to be changing real quick like:

 

[Augustus]

Lin’s victory came as news broke via Khelif’s lawyer that the Algerian has filed a formal legal complaint, citing being the victim of online harassment around the dispute. Asked whether she would consider taking similar action, Lin said: “This is something I will discuss with my team. I will decide later what will be the next step.”


Numerous mainstream media outlets have specifically stated that the boxers are biologically male.

Not qualified it or said allegedly.

Let’s see if they sue anyone based on this. That should give a pretty definitive answer to the question…

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would have done the same hoping that there wouldn't be any commotion or lawsuits. I think most people would avoid getting involved if possible. It would be a hot potato. Imagine how complicated it would be to raise this as a subject before anything had happened? Typical bureaucratic thinking. Head down. Knees tucked. Iron smile. Why create problems for ones self?

The most recent story on this issue that I've read says the IOC does not dispute that the two are XY. They simply don't care. In their minds chromosomes have nothing to do with a person's sex. SMH

 

[Augustus]

The most recent story on this issue that I've read says the IOC does not dispute that the two are XY. They simply don't care. In their minds chromosomes have nothing to do with a person's sex. SMH

Her trainer doesn’t seem to dispute it either

After the 2023 World Championships, where she was disqualified, I took the lead by contacting a renowned endocrinologist at the Paris University Hospital, Kremlin-Bicêtre, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane is indeed a woman, despite her karyotype and testosterone level. He said: "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman. That's all that mattered to us.

https://archive.md/Nrnw0

Despite her testosterone and chromosomes…

 

[SkepticThinker]

We know she was banned for XY chromosomes and instead of proving it wrong at CAS, accepted it as legally binding regarding IBA competition.

We don't know that. Those test results were never published.

There is no eligibility screening for Olympic Boxing, just a passport check.

Not sure what you mean by this.

There is eligibility screening in swimming, cycling etc that she would have failed (unless you can think of a reason she would not have challenged the IBA decision at CAS if it was a malicious lie they invented)

You have no idea that she "would have failed" eligibility screening in swimming, or whatever else. This is pure speculation.

The IOC stands by these athletes' ability to compete. But hey, a bunch of random people on the internet speculating about stuff they don't know have the inside scoop? Don't think so.

Th testing is a cheek swab, nothing like the invasive and cruel stuff in the past. The vast majority of women athletes favour eligibility screening btw.

Do you think swimming and cycling are unscientific bigots for doing this test?

You know there is testing within the boxing world before they make it to the Olympics, right?

What I think is a great illustration is that nobody who favour inclusion over safety ever wants to accept the basic scientific fact that it massively increases the risk to boxers who have not undergone male puberty.

There is no evidence that Khelif has "undergone male puberty." More speculation from you that again, isn't helping womens' causes anywhere at all.

There is always some tap-dancing around a simple scientific truth regarding male advantage that was known to cavemen.

It's like "we are good and inclusive" and "you are bad and prejudiced".

Forget about the 2 boxers as they are innocent and largely irrelevant, do you support the IOC rules that accept biological males who have undergone a (near) full male puberty can fight in women's competition as long as their passport says female? Do you accept that this means a significant increase in risk to biological women, and that over time it guarantees more life changing injuries and eventually deaths?

I don't know that this is the case at all.
Why are you changing to subject to trans people now?

All it requires to accept the above is the same level of knowledge as a caveman had and in modern terms relates to elementary aspects of biology and physics.

LOL We know much more about this stuff than "cavemen" ever could. We might as well ask a 5-year-old.

If people don't care about the increased risk they wish to expose others to, they should at least accept that is what they are arguing for. There is no way to square the circle. No win-win. Inclusion or safety is a simple choice.

Where's the increased risk of harm to others? Khelif has fought and lost to women in the past. She competed at the Tokyo Olympics and didn't win a damn thing.

The person with the biggest hands, feet, highest VO2 max, biggest muscles, etc. does not win the final. There is no trait you can use that will differentiate between elite male athletes at a discipline. The margin of victory is usually 1% or so. MP was not the best in all disciplines.

I just gave you an example of someone who did.

I daresay every single person at the Olympics has some sort of advantage over the rest of us or they wouldn't have made it there in the first place.

There is similarly no trait that you can use that will "differentiate between elite female athletes at a discipline." As already noted, Khelif has lost fights to other women in the past, including at the Tokyo Olympics.

Put any elite male into an elite women's event and they will win so easily it will be ridiculous (excepting non-athletic or strength based disciplines). You can put an elite 15 year old boy in a women's event and he would win. You could predict the results with 100% accuracy every single time. MP would win every single women's swimming event without trying. He could probably win numerous non-swimming ones too.

More speculation.

No trait is remotely close to "has undergone male puberty".

There's no evidence that Khelif "has undergone male puberty."

Yours is an argument against elite female sport, not for inclusion.

That would be yours.

Either you have a women's category and limit who can enter, or you have no women's sport. And this limit has to be more than "self-identifies as a woman".

But no limits on men? Just women. Because .... men are all the same? You might want to look into that more closely.

For the same reason it is fair for XY DSD swimmers and cyclists to have to compete in the men's category. For the same reason women's sports exists in the first place.

And again, you do not know what her chromosomes are. You're merely speculating and inserting your opinion in place of fact.

 

[Father Heathen]

The definition of haram seems to be changing real quick like:

View attachment 95449

Who cares about "haram", though? It's arbitrary nonsense. It's not an objective, empirical indicator of anything.

 

[icehorse]

Who cares about "haram", though? It's arbitrary nonsense. It's not an objective, empirical indicator of anything.

I can agree with your assessment of the term, but sadly a couple of BILLION people take the idea quite seriously.

 

[wellwisher]

There are already two threads about this, but I wanted to clarify in a separate thread what I find to be an absolutely disgraceful, misogynistic, and dehumanizing false narrative pushed by some media outlets and social-media ideologues who traffic in outrage.

Imane Khelif is an Algerian boxer whose win over her Italian counterpart, Angela Carini, has sparked controversy and objections, including from Giorgia Meloni, the Italian prime minister:

https://www.reuters.com/sports/olympics/boxing-algerian-khelif-advances-after-italys-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-2024-08-01/

Imane Khelif is and has always been a biological female. She is not trans; she is a woman whose appearance is masculine by typical perceptions. She is a biological female competing in women's boxing.

Algerian law and society wouldn't allow Khelif to represent the country if she were trans, as both the state and society are not accepting of trans people. The outrage is not even grounded in an accurate understanding of Algerian social and legal norms.

I find the venom and hatred aimed at her over her appearance and strength, which have been attributed to her supposedly being trans, even though she's a biological female to be absolutely repulsive and disgraceful. Many of those who claim to be against misogyny in women's sports are now engaging in rank misogyny against a woman for her appearance. I just wanted to clarify this piece of news, especially given that many of the comments I have seen on it demonstrate complete lack of knowledge about Algerian law and society. I believe that there are legitimate and strongly grounded concerns regarding trans women's participation in physical women's sports, but this woman is a biological female and has always been so. She is being baselessly dragged into a completely separate controversy.

He has male DNA and a Y-Chromosome. However, his secondary physical characteristic is that of a female.

If I recall, one of the earlier Liberal arguments used to justify homosexual behavior, way back when, was the existence of hermaphrodites, which were men or women with both sex organs. These medical case showed how sometime nature cannot make up its mind. The idea of a man in a women's body or a woman in a man's body, to explain lesbian and gay, seemed to have some science basis. If Boxer had claimed lesbian, he would be called a male in a female body, but Algerian Culture will not tolerate this.

The Boxer is what is called intersex;
People who are intersex have genitals, chromosomes or reproductive organs that don't fit into a male/female sex binary.

The boxer looked like a girl as a child, but at adolescence, his y-chromosomes and male hormones and testosterone kicked in. Now he looks like a guy, who is saying he is a gal, which is why people assumed he was transgender. Neither transgender of homosexual is allowed in Algeria. This created sort of a wildcard.

 

[Augustus]

We don't know that. Those test results were never published.

The IBA president stated it. The IOC confirmed a DSD. Her own trainer said she’s a woman “despite her chromosomes and testosterone.”

Your argument is really that she could just release her medical results and end all of the speculation and get her world championship medals back and sue a dozen major media outlets but for some reason she refused to do this?

She refuses to objectively prove she has been the victim of a malicious lie (that the IOC and her own trainer seem to have confirmed).

“Baseless speculation”

You have no idea that she "would have failed" eligibility screening in swimming, or whatever else. This is pure speculation.

See above. To call it pure speculation is to ignore the evidence.

It may not be 100% certain, but it is clearly the most probable explanation of what we do know.

Not sure what you mean by this.

That seems apparent. Eligibility for boxing is based on whatever your passport says you are.

You seem to be suggesting she passed some kind of sex screening. She did not.

So someone with a DSD incorrectly assigned female at birth is eligible.

I agree she is eligible, my criticism is the rules that enable XY DSD males to compete.

The IOC stands by these athletes' ability to compete. But hey, a bunch of random people on the internet speculating about stuff they don't know have the inside scoop? Don't think so

I agree they are eligible, eligibility is based on your passport not a test.

You know there is testing within the boxing world before they make it to the Olympics, right?

For PEDs, not XY chromosomes.

But no limits on men? Just women. Because .... men are all the same? You might want to look into that more closely.

Males are limited from the women’s category.

If you don’t understand why, you may want to look at the science behind it.

It’s absolutely unequivocal.

Denying that is far worse than denying climate change or whatever you find ludicrous among right wing science deniers.

There's no evidence that Khelif "has undergone male puberty."

You seem unable to distinguish evidence from proof.

I just gave you an example of someone who did.

No you didn’t. You just parroted a specious argument without understanding it.

Phelps didn’t win because of some made up stat about lactic acid or his giant feet.

How do you think he would fare in women’s swimming though?

Which event would he not win easily?

There is similarly no trait that you can use that will "differentiate between elite female athletes at a discipline."

Yes, of course.

Add an elite male into that group though and you’ll certainly know who will win.

Anyway, forget the individuals and look at the rules. Do you support the right of males who have undergone male puberty to fight women given we know the consequences of this will be to increase injury and death?

The rules certainly allow this now.

Do you favour inclusion or women’s safety?

 

[SkepticThinker]

He has male DNA and a Y-Chromosome. However, his secondary physical characteristic is that of a female.

Nope.

The IBA president stated it. The IOC confirmed a DSD. Her own trainer said she’s a woman “despite her chromosomes and testosterone.”

And yet, we've never seen the actual test results.

Your argument is really that she could just release her medical results and end all of the speculation and get her world championship medals back and sue a dozen major media outlets but for some reason she refused to do this?

No, I've not made such an argument.

I don't think anybody should have to release their medical records to the pubic.

She refuses to objectively prove she has been the victim of a malicious lie (that the IOC and her own trainer seem to have confirmed).

She apparently doesn't need to prove much more than she already has. To the people who matter, at least.

“Baseless speculation”

We don't have any evidence. We just have internet rumours.

The actual evidence we have shows that she participated in the Tokyo Olympics with no controversy whatsoever. She lost to other women and didn't win any medals. The "controversy" comes from some internet ignoramuses who "see a man" and think they know more than they do.

See above. To call it pure speculation is to ignore the evidence.

You've not presented evidence. You've only claimed you know her chromosomal makeup.

It may not be 100% certain, but it is clearly the most probable explanation of what we do know.

It's speculation based on a preconceived narrative.

That seems apparent. Eligibility for boxing is based on whatever your passport says you are.

You seem to be suggesting she passed some kind of sex screening. She did not.

"
We have seen in reports misleading information about two female athletes competing at the Olympic Games Paris 2024. The two athletes have been competing in international boxing competitions for many years in the women’s category, including the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, International Boxing Association (IBA) World Championships and IBA-sanctioned tournaments.

These two athletes were the victims of a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA. Towards the end of the IBA World Championships in 2023, they were suddenly disqualified without any due process.

According to the IBA minutes available on their website, this decision was initially taken solely by the IBA Secretary General and CEO. The IBA Board only ratified it afterwards and only subsequently requested that a procedure to follow in similar cases in the future be established and reflected in the IBA Regulations. The minutes also say that the IBA should “establish a clear procedure on gender testing”.

The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure – especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years.
Such an approach is contrary to good governance.

Eligibility rules should not be changed during ongoing competition, and any rule change must follow appropriate processes and should be based on scientific evidence.

The IOC is committed to protecting the human rights of all athletes participating in the Olympic Games as per the Olympic Charter, the IOC Code of Ethics and the IOC Strategic Framework on Human Rights. The IOC is saddened by the abuse that the two athletes are currently receiving.
The IBA’s recognition was withdrawn by the IOC in 2023 following its suspension in 2019. The withdrawal of recognition was confirmed by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). See the IOC’s statement following the ruling.

The IOC has made it clear that it needs National Boxing Federations to reach a consensus around a new International Federation in order for boxing to be included on the sports programme of the Olympic Games LA28."

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

So someone with a DSD incorrectly assigned female at birth is eligible.

Where's the evidence she was "someone with a DSD incorrectly assigned female at birth?"
This is just a claim you keep making.

I agree she is eligible, my criticism is the rules that enable XY DSD males to compete.

You're also assuming Khelif is an "XY DSD" based on speculation.

I agree they are eligible, eligibility is based on your passport not a test.



For PEDs, not XY chromosomes.



Males are limited from the women’s category.

If you don’t understand why, you may want to look at the science behind it.

It’s absolutely unequivocal.

Denying that is far worse than denying climate change or whatever you find ludicrous among right wing science deniers.



You seem unable to distinguish evidence from proof.

LOL What evidence do you have that she went through male puberty, exactly?

No you didn’t. You just parroted a specious argument without understanding it.

Nope I gave an argument that' you've yet to properly address.
Everyone at the Olympics has an advantage over others. It's how they got there in the first place.
Should we be testing swimmers' lactic acid levels in the future? Where do we draw the line here?

Having higher than average testosterone levels doesn't just make someone a man.

Phelps didn’t win because of some made up stat about lactic acid or his giant feet.

Yeah, that stuff isn't helpful for swimming or anything ...

How do you think he would fare in women’s swimming though?

Which event would he not win easily?

What kind of question is this?

Yes, of course.

Add an elite male into that group though and you’ll certainly know who will win.

Anyway, forget the individuals and look at the rules. Do you support the right of males who have undergone male puberty to fight women given we know the consequences of this will be to increase injury and death?

That is not what we are talking about here.
You just want it to be.

Let me reiterate yet again, Khelif has been fighting for years. She has lost to women on many occasions. So your little thought experiments here don't seem to be panning out very well.

The rules certainly allow this now.

Do you favour inclusion or women’s safety?

I don't see it as an either/or. Especially considering that KHELIF IS A WOMAN.

 

[Augustus]

And yet, we've never seen the actual test results.

Because the only person who can release them and prove her innocence refuses to do so.

Funny that.

No, I've not made such an argument.

I don't think anybody should have to release their medical records to the pubic.

They don’t have to.

Just the specific test results that show they are XX, along side the fake ones from the IOC and they will be vindicated, get gold medals, and likely become very rich due to the compensation.

We don't have any evidence. We just have internet rumours.

Being deliberately blind to the evidence doesn’t make it disappear.

The IBA banned her. Which cost her medals and a significant part of her career. This alone is very significant evidence.

They have stated this test showed she was ineligible. Eligibility is based on XX.

This test was done by 2 accredited medical facilities who have been named. Again evidence, given they would otherwise be involved in the lamest conspiracy that can be objectively uncovered at any point by a simple test. They would then face significant harms to their business and potentially lose their license to operate.

The results could be challenged at CAS a neutral and respected international organisation. Neither boxer did this. So we have to assume 2 highly competitive individuals, who had been robbed of world championships in the most egregious and malicious, yet idiotic and easily disproved conspiracy simply chose to shut up and accept a result they could have overturned and got significant compensation for?

If based in a malicious conspiracy, she had a 100% chance of winning this case. Lawyers would line up to work pro bono uncovering a Russian conspiracy to defame a brown woman with sexist defamation too.

Her own trainer has publicly stated she is a woman “despite the chromosomes and testosterone”. He said this based in test she did in France. Again it would be a very strange lie to tell in her defence if he just made it up.

The IOC said she has a DSD.

Contingent on an elite sportswoman having a DSD, it’s most likely to be 5ARD or PAIS as they give massive advantage.

No one ever said the tests were wrong, just “arbitrary”

Many mainstream media outlets have stated as fact she is biologically male and have thus committed libel if they are wrong. She can objectively prove this if she wants.

None of these are “internet speculation” but facts.

Collectively they are significant evidence, although not objective proof.

I guarantee you believe many many things on far less evidence than this though.

I don't see it as an either/or. Especially considering that KHELIF IS A WOMAN.

But the strong balance of probabilities suggests she is not female.

However, on inclusion v safety it is absolutely an either/or, unless you want to deny elementary physics and biology.

The rules permit males who have undergone male puberty to fight women who have not.

People want to deny this and focus on the individuals as they don’t want to accept they are arguing for women to be subject to significantly greater risk of life changing injury or even death by being punched in the face by biological males.

Strangely enough, many other Olympic sports conduct tests that would prevent both the increased risk and similar scandals in who was/was not born female.

You wouldn’t be in favour of them?

Let me reiterate yet again, Khelif has been fighting for years. She has lost to women on many occasions. So your little thought experiments here don't seem to be panning out very well.

Elementary physics and biology are not a “thought experiment”

Boxing is not simply who has the hardest punch, especially at the amateur level. Boxers can also improve as they develop their skills. Few world champions are in their early 20s.

Weak heavyweights won’t beat world class middleweights, but we don’t let them enter that division as advantage is assumed and safety and fairness are important.

But the argument that male biological advantage doesn’t exist unless they win is inane. It is implicitly arguing that all males should always beat all females, or male advantage doesn’t exist. The woman’s category is not for elite women and mediocre males though, just like the middleweight category at the Olympics is not for elite middleweights and mediocre heavyweights.

She was a dominant champion who outclassed everyone in the woman’s category. She would be nowhere near the male Olympic level.

Yeah, that stuff isn't helpful for swimming or anything ...

Being 7 feet tall is an advantage at basketball.

The tallest person in the NBA is unlikely to be the best basketball player.

Small male NBA players are far better than taller WNBA players.

Put 100 elite swimmers of both sexes in a competition.

Some women will have bigger feet than some of the men.

The top 50 fastest will be men. The slower 50 will all be female.

Within the male/female groups there will be no single biological trait that consistently predicts their relative ability. Not feet, hands, VO2 max, lactic acid, etc.

Sex will be 100% accurate though. Every time.

That is why they are not the same.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The IBA banned her. Which cost her medals and a significant part of her career. This alone is very significant evidence.

They have stated this test showed she was ineligible. Eligibility is based on XX.

But who did them? Where and when? It's never been disclosed. For all we know they may have collected a sample but not ran the tests.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

She was a dominant champion who outclassed everyone in the woman’s category. She would be nowhere near the male Olympic level.

She's lost 9 times (56 fightsl. Mike Tyson lost 6 times (58 fights). Muhammad Ali lost 5 times (61 fights). That doesn't seem an impressive out classing of everyone to me.
And there's this:
Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Is Neither Trans Nor Male

The only purported evidence for the claim that Khelif is trans comes from an undisclosed test performed by an allegedly corrupt sports governing body that may have shown she has a DSD condition.

Those are shaky grounds for asserting she has DSD.

 

[Father Heathen]

He has male DNA and a Y-Chromosome. However, his secondary physical characteristic is that of a female.

If I recall, one of the earlier Liberal arguments used to justify homosexual behavior, way back when, was the existence of hermaphrodites, which were men or women with both sex organs. These medical case showed how sometime nature cannot make up its mind. The idea of a man in a women's body or a woman in a man's body, to explain lesbian and gay, seemed to have some science basis. If Boxer had claimed lesbian, he would be called a male in a female body, but Algerian Culture will not tolerate this.

The Boxer is what is called intersex;
People who are intersex have genitals, chromosomes or reproductive organs that don't fit into a male/female sex binary.

The boxer looked like a girl as a child, but at adolescence, his y-chromosomes and male hormones and testosterone kicked in. Now he looks like a guy, who is saying he is a gal, which is why people assumed he was transgender. Neither transgender of homosexual is allowed in Algeria. This created sort of a wildcard.

Who the hell are you talking about?

 

[Father Heathen]

I knew a girl who was a pseudohermaphrodite. She was born and grew up looking, acting, and feeling like a typical girl, vagina and all. She discovered during their teenage years that she was in fact intersex with Xy chromosomes. She continued living as a girl, but should she have attempted to change her appearance, personality, etc. and start identifying as male to appease others who'd be none the wiser anyway?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The definition of haram seems to be changing real quick like:

View attachment 95449

Nope. It isn't. It's still being used as it always has.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Lin’s victory came as news broke via Khelif’s lawyer that the Algerian has filed a formal legal complaint, citing being the victim of online harassment around the dispute. Asked whether she would consider taking similar action, Lin said: “This is something I will discuss with my team. I will decide later what will be the next step.”


Numerous mainstream media outlets have specifically stated that the boxers are biologically male.

Not qualified it or said allegedly.

Let’s see if they sue anyone based on this. That should give a pretty definitive answer to the question…

We already have a definitive answer that she is not male in anyway and never has been.

 

[Augustus]

But who did them? Where and when? It's never been disclosed. For all we know they may have collected a sample but not ran the tests.

Background: The IBA, like most major sporting bodies including the IOC, FIFA, etc, are corrupt. If they want to rig bouts, the easiest thing to do is rig the judging as most amateur fights go to the scorecards. This can always be denied and is very hard to appeal against. The "but the Russians..." conspiracy theory doesn't work when you have a legal right to neutral arbitration and objective proof on your side.

• At the next IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships 2023 in New Delhi, Khelif and Lin were tested following their consent again before their first fights. Blood sample collection was made on 17 March 2023. Dr Lal PathLabs from New Delhi issued its report on 23 March 2023. The findings were absolutely identical to the first test results.
• Following many complaints from several coaches, boxers agreed to gender testing. Blood sample collection was made on 17 May 2022. Sistem Tip Laboratory from Istanbul (License Number: 194-MRK) issued its report on 24 May 2022, after the competition ended. The laboratory detected results that didn’t match the eligibility criteria for IBA women’s events.

These labs would understand they would be proved to have committed serious medical malpractice if either athlete used their legal right to appeal to CAS.


Which of the following scenarios, do you find more probable:

1. The IBA, for some unknown reason, decided to concoct a malicious lie designed to ruin the careers of 2 innocent female boxers. This malicious conspiracy could only possibly work if neither of these 2 highly competitive females decided to appeal to the completely neutral CAS where they could objectively prove their innocence. At any point in the future, the IBA could now be proved objectively to be corrupt, liars and the IBA would be ruined unless it sacked them and implemented major reforms.

Miraculously, both of these highly competitive females, preferred to be stripped of world titles/medals, legally accept a life ban from IBA events, become a media circus, and have all their future achievements tainted. They chose this option over their automatically guaranteed legal right to go to the neutral and respected Court of Arbitration for Sport and objectively clear their names from any suspicion ever again. In addition, to clearing their names, they could ruin the careers of those who maliciously tried to ruin their lives, ruin the business of these accredited labs who conspired to do this with fake tests. In addition, they would make, probably millions of $ in compensation and libel.


2. Neither boxer appealed the decision at CAS or released their test results because they test results show they have XY chromosomes based on a male DSD (actually Khelif did appeal, then withdrew her appeal before it was heard. Either this was because she no longer wanted to prove her innocence, or she realised that the appeal would do more harm than good by confirming the initial tests)


Bonus info: The IOC accidentally confirmed a DSD and her trainer confirmed abnormalities in testosterone and chromosomes. Perhaps they are in on the Russian conspiracy too or have been fooled by baseless internet speculation.

 

[Augustus]

We already have a definitive answer that she is not male in anyway and never has been.

Same was said about Caster Semenya.

It was just sexist and racist bigots bullying a woman for her appearance. She was born and raised a woman. She was not male in anyway and never had been. People just couldn't take a strong African female beating their favourites. Baseless internet speculation.

Yet it was shown at CAS that she was XY with 5ARD.

Now, can you think of any reason these 2 boxers may not want to challenge the IBA tests despite having the legal right to do so?

Those are shaky grounds for asserting she has DSD.

A major international sporting body, citing multiple test conducted by accredited labs, where both defendants have a legal right to neutral arbitration is shaky ground?

Also, it is exactly the same grounds that multiple Olympic Sports (swimming, cycling, etc.) use to restrict XY male access to women's competition. The governing body tests eligibility with legal right of appeal. The only difference is swimming and cycling now test everyone at the start of their careers to avoid major scandals at major events.

Note: The boxers can release the results any time they choose, it is not the IBA keeping them secret but the fighters.


if you would like to hear a discussion by one of the world's leading experts on this topic who has been an expert scientific advisor for CAS and World Rugby (bonus: you can hear a journalist from the famously right wing newspaper "The Guardian" supporting the baseless conspiracy)

Paris 2024: Males Are About To Fight in Women's Boxing. How Did We Get Here? | The Real Science of Sport Podcast

Controversy in Paris as biological males compete in women's boxing and football. We explore the issues

shows.acast.com

 

[Augustus]

I knew a girl who was a pseudohermaphrodite. She was born and grew up looking, acting, and feeling like a typical girl, vagina and all. She discovered during their teenage years that she was in fact intersex with Xy chromosomes. She continued living as a girl, but should she have attempted to change her appearance, personality, etc. and start identifying as male to appease others who'd be none the wiser anyway?

They should be free to identify and live as women and be treated as women if that is their choice.

Just that elite sports should be based on sex, not gender identity. Especially boxing as risk to participants is based on sex rather than gender identity, and exposing others to this increased risk is unethical.

You have to favour inclusion or safety/fairness. There is no way to balance these. Currently, the IOC rules allow biological males who have undergone male puberty to fight females.

What are your views on those who have undergone male puberty fighting females? Is inclusion or safety more important?