The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer

[SkepticThinker]

She looks like a man. Let's genetically test all boxers for safety.

My mother-in-law "looks like a man" sometimes, if you see her from the back. That doesn't mean she is one.

Women and men come in all shapes, and fall along a broad spectrum of "masculine" and "feminine."

 

[Kathryn]

My mother-in-law "looks like a man" sometimes, if you see her from the back. That doesn't mean she is one.

Women and men come in all shapes, and fall along a broad spectrum of "masculine" and "feminine."

Which is why I said to genetically test all boxers. To clarify, I meant at the Olympics. You know, for safety reasons. It's not even an invasive test!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Which is why I said to genetically test all boxers. To clarify, I meant at the Olympics. You know, for safety reasons. It's not even an invasive test!

I don't think genetic tests indicate hormone levels.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't think genetic tests indicate hormone levels.

OK.

 

[Augustus]

I don't think genetic tests indicate hormone levels.

Contingent on being an elite athlete, XY and high testosterone will almost certainly go together, but people should be tested before they reach the elite level. The majority of women athletes (unsurprisingly) also support such testing.

But the genetic test can just be used as a screening and if it returns an anomaly then they can confirm with other tests.

People have to choose between exposing female boxers to significant risk by forcing them to fight biological males against their will, or using some form of sex screaming. Too many people want to think they can be inclusive while avoiding the acceptance that this forced women to be punched repeatedly by biological males and some will suffer life changing injuries as a result.

I haven't seen a single person in this thread accept that that is the certain result of their advocacy.

The following has recently been published in a scientific journal and is authored by numerous leading scientists in the field.


Fair and Safe Eligibility Criteria for Women's Sport [Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports]

The Paris 2024 Olympic boxing competition, featuring athletes with alleged male advantages in the female category, has reinvigorated controversy about eligibility criteria for women's sport. Recently, in this journal [1], we explained how endogenous testosterone production during male development leads to performance advantages arising from well-established sexbased differences in body size, muscle mass, endurance, speed, strength, and power. These physical advantages are so large that they necessitate a separate and protected female category that excludes male advantage to ensure fair and safe competition for female athletes. The unfortunate developments in the 2024 Olympic Games compel these matters to be revisited.

During press conferences at the 2024 Olympic Games, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) invited solutions to address eligibility for women's sport. We take this opportunity to propose our solution, which includes: (a) recognizing that female sport that excludes all male advantage is necessary for female inclusion; (b) recognizing that exclusion from female sport should be based on the presence of any male development, rather than current testosterone levels, (c) not privileging legal “passport” sex or gender identity for inclusion into female sport; and (d) accepting that sport must have means of testing eligibility to fulfill the category purpose.

.. there is ample evidence that biological sex is a crucial differentiator in ensuring fairness and influencing safety for female athletes [1]. The participation of male-born competitors (e.g., transgender women) and athletes with certain XY DSDs in female sport is a growing concern. These athletes experience male-typical development from testes producing testosterone, with resultant physiological differences creating athletic advantages and safety risks [4–6], even in athletes with XY DSDs who might have been observed as female at birth.

The ethical failures of sports federations in the past cannot be allowed to obstruct accessible solutions to such an important issue in women's sport. The ethical framework that governs modern genetic testing is thorough and, importantly to overcome the shortcomings of the past, it emphasizes individual consent, confidentiality, and dignity. Current technology enables a screening procedure for “sports sex” that involves a simple cheek swab to determine sex chromosomes. This screen can be performed reliably and quickly and should be done in duplicate to ensure reliable results. The results of this sex chromosome screening should be used to indicate the need for follow-up tests as part of standard medical care, including counseling and psychological support as part othe ongoing duty of care to the athlete. This will permit greater understanding of a potential medical condition, but also allow for an evidence-based assessment of male advantage in sport [5]. However, to preserve confidentiality and dignity, athletes must be screened early—perhaps when they first register in the female category in an affiliated competition and before they are thrust into the global spotlight. This would prevent the individual targeting and unsolicited public scrutiny that has occurred numerous times, most recently in the 2024 Olympic Games.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14715?saml_referrer=

 

[Brian2]

She looks like a man. Let's genetically test all boxers for safety.

Khelif has been tested by the IBA and it seems has been shown to be a make chromisomally. I say "it seems" because the test results have not been made public but logic points to him/her being chromosomally male.
The IOC knows the results of the test but the IOC says it does not use the IBA. It seems that the IOC wants to be inclusive and uses birth certificates or passports etc to see if someone is male of female, but that does not tell us if they are biologically male of female.
In the meantime biological males beat up biological females in the boxing ring and win gold medals for doing it because the IOC want to be inclusive instead of being fair.
And many people think that this is a fantastic situation and should continue like this.

 

[Augustus]

And many people think that this is a fantastic situation and should continue like this.

I’m not sure they do. They prefer the ostrich approach.

Many people like to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it’s just a Russian conspiracy uncritically accepted by right wing bigots. If they pretend the evidence doesn’t exist they can pretend they are on an unimpeachable moral high ground.

Many also like to pretend you can be fully inclusive without forcing women to face significant risk by fighting biological males. Hence you get some platitudes about there being more than one way to be a woman, etc. Others try to muddy the waters about the science behind male advantage and pretend it’s just the same as a swimmer having slightly bigger feet than others.

I’m sure some must exist, but I’ve never seen anyone simply acknowledge that they accept the science behind male advantage, that this creates significant higher risk of life changing injury, that it gives an unmatchable advantage to the biological males but consider inclusion to be more important than safety and fairness.

 

[Debater Slayer]

@Debater Slayer you might be interested in this discussion.

This is not a polemicist or culture warrior, but a Professor in sports science who has been involved in crafting the regulations for World Rugby, and also as an expert advisor in the legal cases around Caster Semenya.

It is a very nuanced and reasoned discussion regarding the science of DSD and why people raised as females and who view themselves as females may technically be biologically male and have undergone male puberty.

As such these athletes are not females with elevated testosterone, but males with normal levels of testosterone who have a DSD that prevents it from being used in the same way as most males.

Either they have androgen insensitivity, or can process it fully except for the part that causes male genitalia to develop.

They are clear that it is not necessarily people “pretending” to be female, but do point out it only usually happens in the developing world as it is not identified and treated when they are young.

It’s about 45 mins long, but it is very interesting as regards the science.

Paris 2024: Males Are About To Fight in Women's Boxing. How Did We Get Here? | The Real Science of Sport Podcast

Controversy in Paris as biological males compete in women's boxing and football. We explore the issues

shows.acast.com

Sorry for the very delayed reply; this is the first time I have logged on in a few weeks.

Thanks for the link. It's nice to hear the input of a medical professional on the issue away from politics.

From what I have read about Imane Khelif's condition since, it seems reasonable to me that some restrictions may be needed in the case of at least some athletes with DSD in order to preserve fairness and, in combat sports, safety. I don't see it as a question of whether she's a woman, as she definitely is; it's just that, given the physical traits obtained from male puberty (if an athlete with DSD has gone through it) and certain levels of testosterone, I see no way around picking between inclusion and fairness and, in some cases, safety. It's unfortunate, but there don't seem to be any solutions that can achieve both at this time.