The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer

[The Hammer]

So. What we have learned is that being born female and having female on one's birth certificate is not what makes one a female/woman. One must be able to conform to cultural and preferable aesthetic standards of what constitutes feminity/womanhood. Interesting.

Say it again for the people in the back.

 

[Father Heathen]

Interesting indeed.

From the crowd that has been adamantly telling us that gender is decided by what's between one's legs and what one's birth certificate says.

Interesting indeed.

It is ironic that transphobes want to force her into being a trans man.

 

[Augustus]

You forgot why what the IBA did to her and the Taiwanese boxer made them lose their Olympic status.

That wasn’t what made them lose their Olympic status.

It was for financial corruption, lack of transparency and judging scandals (you know the way boxing authorities actually rig results as faking sex test result doesn’t work when someone simply takes you to CAS as they automatically can do).

They lost it before. One corrupt organisation and another corrupt organisation had a power struggle. The IOC has also had issues with financial corruption, lack of transparency and judging scandals in the past.

But blaming “The Russians”/a “conspiracy” for faking a sex test makes no sense as all the athletes need to do is challenge the result and they win world championships, millions of dollars and get to destroy those who tried to ruin their lives.

“Yeah of course they could objectively prove their innocence while getting rich and getting justice, they just don’t want to” is a phenomenal feat of cognitive dissonance.

But ignoring uncomfortable facts appears to be your specialty at times.

You consistently showed you have no idea about any facts.

Why the IBA was banned, that they had right of neutral arbitration, why Swyer is almost certainly not the case, etc.

Wrong again. I pointed out that she probably did not go through puberty at all. You were the one that kept insisting that she went through male puberty while the sort of intersex that she appears to have do not go through puberty. Male or female. Many of them in the civilized world will go through female puberty by using hormone replacement therapy. But I do not think that Algeria would be considered civilized in this sense since they are still using the Ostrich Defense when it comes to the fact that sexuality is a spectrum.

Yes, of course it’s far more probable that 2 of the women”s Olympic boxing champions are XY in a way that gives them athletic disadvantage rather than in one of the ways that gives massive advantage

3 cheers for science and reason…

You also forgot to add in the fact that her own trainer noted her chromosomes and testosterone.

The best possible explanation is certainly that this elite athlete has not gone through any puberty and is still an elite athlete with high testosterone.

 

[Viker]

How do you tell if someone is a woman or not?

I dunno. You go first.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Her trainer doesn’t seem to dispute it either

After the 2023 World Championships, where she was disqualified, I took the lead by contacting a renowned endocrinologist at the Paris University Hospital, Kremlin-Bicêtre, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane is indeed a woman, despite her karyotype and testosterone level. He said: "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman. That's all that mattered to us.

https://archive.md/Nrnw0

Despite her testosterone and chromosomes…

Another update. She is apparently now taking hormones to lower her testosterone. People are thinking this will resolve the problem. It won't. Here is why.

Once a person goes through male puberty, their body is PERMANENTLY altered in certain ways. Their bones thicken. Their heart is larger. Their lungs are larger. They develop longer arms and legs than women, they have larger muscle fibers (leading to greater muscle mass), higher hemoglobin levels, and less body fat. Taking hormones later in life to reduce testosterone levels changes NONE of those advantages.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What I heard is that the International Boxing Association has scientifically classed her as male in the past and the IOC decided to not use the IBA classification this year, but to use their own classification, with unscientific classification method.

We've already been over this. The IBA randomly sprung the test on her after she beat a Russian and they have never disclosed the details of those tests.

 

[Brian2]

We've already been over this. The IBA randomly sprung the test on her after she beat a Russian and they have never disclosed the details of those tests.

It's OK to randomely spring such a test on an athlete.
From what I hear, the organisation (IBA) legally cannot disclose the results of the test but have said that they base their testing on Chromosomes, male being XY and female being XX and that the athlete does not fall into the female category.
Look at this video from 10 minutes to 17 minutes to see what this Doctor says about the testing that the IBA and the IOC use.

 

[Augustus]

We've already been over this. The IBA randomly sprung the test on her after she beat a Russian and they have never disclosed the details of those tests.

The IBA are certainly corrupt, but that doesn’t mean everything they do is corruption. Corrupt people like to keep their power to continue their corruption, they don’t try to do it in a manner where they are certain to get caught if the victim acts like 99% of the population would.

So:

The IBA tested them in 2022 and 2023.

They can’t release the results legally, only the athlete can do this. The athlete refuses. I wonder why?

By not challenging the athletes legally accepted the results.

If the results are fake, the athletes can challenge the ruling at CAS and have a 100% certainty of winning if XX.

The labs that did the test are WADA accredited and could destroy their business by faking results. Why would they take part in such a hare-brained conspiracy with a near certainty of being found out?

A conspiracy that can be objectively proved if the athletes simply dispute the result if the tests at CAS is perhaps the most implausible conspiracy imaginable.

If they wanted the Russian to win they just bribe the judges. That has happened in boxing since the 19th C.

You don’t give the victims a smoking gun and the court to prove it in as the scandal will end your ability to be corrupt.

But hey, the big bad Russians are being mean again so all the above makes perfect sense.

 

[Brian2]

I dunno. You go first.

The usual way has been to just look at someone and come up with an answer in our own heads.
These days it is not as simple and many people who look female say they are males and many who look male say they are female and that is OK also except that it has caused some problems in certain areas.
In an area like competition sport there needs to be more of a scientific determination of gender so that women are actually competing against women who haven't had the advantages of male testosterone in their development. It's a matter of fairness and in sports such as boxing, a matter of safety also.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The IBA are certainly corrupt, but that doesn’t mean everything they do is corruption. Corrupt people like to keep their power to continue their corruption, they don’t try to do it in a manner where they are certain to get caught if the victim acts like 99% of the population would.

So:

The IBA tested them in 2022 and 2023.

They can’t release the results legally, only the athlete can do this. The athlete refuses. I wonder why?

By not challenging the athletes legally accepted the results.

If the results are fake, the athletes can challenge the ruling at CAS and have a 100% certainty of winning if XX.

The labs that did the test are WADA accredited and could destroy their business by faking results. Why would they take part in such a hare-brained conspiracy with a near certainty of being found out?

A conspiracy that can be objectively proved if the athletes simply dispute the result if the tests at CAS is perhaps the most implausible conspiracy imaginable.

If they wanted the Russian to win they just bribe the judges. That has happened in boxing since the 19th C.

You don’t give the victims a smoking gun and the court to prove it in as the scandal will end your ability to be corrupt.

But hey, the big bad Russians are being mean again so all the above makes perfect sense.

I'm not saying the big bad Russians but pointing out the conflict of interest that inherently arose when the IBC, a Russian organization, suddenly tested her after she beat a Russian. It's not because they're Russian, it's because the nation the organization belongs to tested her after beating someone also if the same nation. Doesn't matter who, it's a conflict of interest.
There's also the reality the IBC didn't disclose information about the tests. For all we know a sample was collected and the tests never ran.
And to her not challenging it, all there is is speculation.

 

[Augustus]

There's also the reality the IBC didn't disclose information about the tests. For all we know a sample was collected and the tests never ran.

They named the labs. If they were lying the labs would point this out. They are accredited labs that can be used for drug testing, not just some random back alley charlatans.

It is suspicious that an organisation that is legally prevented from releasing the details of the tests didn’t break the law by releasing the test results?

Seriously?

Yet you don’t find it suspicious that the boxers who had the test results that objectively prove their innocence refuse to release them?

Can’t say that makes much sense.

And to her not challenging it, all there is is speculation

Saying the Russians all made it up is just speculation.

Pretending that it makes sense for people to maliciously engage in corruption that they have a near certainty of being caught for is ludicrous.

Why would any innocent party simply accept the injustice, tarnished legacy and no money over world championships an immaculate legacy and vast riches?

Why do you find that the most probable explanation?

I'm not saying the big bad Russians but pointing out the conflict of interest that inherently arose when the IBC, a Russian organization, suddenly tested her after she beat a Russian. It's not because they're Russian, it's because the nation the organization belongs to tested her after beating someone also if the same nation. Doesn't matter who, it's a conflict of interest.

A conflict of interest that is overseen by a neutral court of arbitration at which they have the automatic right of appeal with 100% certainty of success.

 

[Augustus]

That's funny because I'm Canadian.

Apologies. My mistake.

The idea that the only reason people could care about biological males fighting females is rank prejudice does seem to assume a side in the culture wars, rather than a desire to consider things rationally though.

 

[Augustus]

It is ironic that transphobes want to force her into being a trans man.

She probably wouldn’t be a trans man.

But some non-binary and trans men did compete in female events at the Olympics. Some non-binary and trans women (not at the Olympics though afaik) compete in male events.

This is fine as long as they don’t take PEDs.

Sex based categories that are open to any gender are inclusive too, as well as being safer and fairer.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The usual way has been to just look at someone and come up with an answer in our own heads.
These days it is not as simple and many people who look female say they are males and many who look male say they are female and that is OK also except that it has caused some problems in certain areas.
In an area like competition sport there needs to be more of a scientific determination of gender so that women are actually competing against women who haven't had the advantages of male testosterone in their development. It's a matter of fairness and in sports such as boxing, a matter of safety also.

There seem to be a ton of people who don't seem to know that women's bodies naturally produce testosterone.
You sound like one of them, judging from your use of the term "male testosterone" here.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Apologies. My mistake.

The idea that the only reason people could care about biological males fighting females is rank prejudice does seem to assume a side in the culture wars, rather than a desire to consider things rationally though.

I just disagree that we're talking about "biological males" when we're talking about Khelif.
No need to make this into something it isn't ("culture wars")

 

[Brian2]

There seem to be a ton of people who don't seem to know that women's bodies naturally produce testosterone.
You sound like one of them, judging from your use of the term "male testosterone" here.

Thanks for that.

 

[Augustus]

I just disagree that we're talking about "biological males" when we're talking about Khelif.
No need to make this into something it isn't ("culture wars")

Given we know it is not uncommon for males with DSDs to be incorrectly assigned female at birth,
why would you consider it more probable that:

The IBA lied in a way that was almost certain to get found out and cause them significant problems as the organisation would basically be untenable without significant reforms.

That the IBA being blocked from releasing the results by the boxers is good evidence the results are false?

Why is it remotely probable that both boxers legally accepted the verdicts despite them being malicious lies, and both continue to block the release of the test results that prove their innocence?

Given the conspiracy involves 2 accredited labs, why not just frame for PEDs rather than sex which is simple to disprove? The labs do both tests. Why is it most probable they chose the most stupid and easily disproven conspiracy in history?

Why is it most probable that 2 super competitive athletes care enough about the sport to win world titles ( or be in the final), but not care enough to do the simple task of getting to keep them by proving a conspiracy in the court they automatically could appeal to?

Why is it most probable that the IBA were confident neither would appeal?

Why haven’t they sued the IBA and the many major media organisations that have certainly libelled them if they are XX?

Why is it most probable that 2 people who aren’t especially rich chose to pass up millions in free money while gaining justice and respect?

Why is it probable that they prefer their greatest triumphs to be tarnished rather than simply prove they are victims and have won a great victory for the underdog?

Why is it most probable that her own trainer was lying or mistaken when he said her chromosomes and testosterone were abnormal for a female?

Ditto the IOC when the accidentally confirmed a DSD.

Why is it probable that neither they nor their proponents have ever even said the tests were false given they complained about them being arbitrary and numerous other things? The IOC has the test results after all.

Why do you think that contingent on having a DSD, a chromosomal abnormality, high testosterone and being an elite woman’s boxer , that it is most likely she is biologically female and hasn’t undergone male puberty? This alone makes it extremely probable she is biologically male, let alone when combined with all the others. To go against this balance of probabilities is like saying contingent on someone being an NBA player who is known for being good at dunking and rebounding, it is more probable they are of below the male average height.

Other than for reasons of politics, why would anyone view such an unlikely series if contingencies as being by far the most probable?

 

[wellwisher]

If you look at a transgender man to woman, you need to artificially add female hormones to fool the body to be more female. Plus you need plastic surgery to alter secondary sexual characteristics to fool the eyes. The Algerian Boxer has male DNA to dispense free male hormones instead of having to buy drug company hormones. While the Algerian boxer had nature do the surgery to fool the eyes.

The question is should all women boxers be able to use male hormones to get the same advantage? We can say these women self identify as champions and to achieve this self identity they should be able to get the same medical care as a trans women to male, while skipping the surgery step to retain female characteristics. Gender is very fluid, I heard someone say and drugs can be used to promote it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you look at a transgender man to woman, you need to artificially add female hormones to fool the body to be more female. Plus you need plastic surgery to alter secondary sexual characteristics to fool the eyes. The Algerian Boxer has male DNA to dispense free male hormones instead of having to buy drug company hormones. While the Algerian boxer had nature do the surgery to fool the eyes.

The question is should all women boxers be able to use male hormones to get the same advantage? We can say these women self identify as champions and to achieve this self identity they should be able to get the same medical care as a trans women to male, while skipping the surgery step to retain female characteristics. Gender is very fluid, I heard someone say and drugs can be used to promote it.

Khelif isn't trans.

 

[Kathryn]

She looks like a man. Let's genetically test all boxers for safety.