The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer

[Subduction Zone]

Because the only person who can release them and prove her innocence refuses to do so.

Funny that.

She does not bear the burden of proof. It is rather amazing that you do not understand this. As to the rest of your nonsense, I have repeatedly stated and shown that she likely has Swyer Syndrome and would not have undergone male puberty. I posted images of more muscular female Olympians. I must have missed the response to that.

One poorly designed test cannot prove that she went through male puberty. The IBA has not made its details public but it appears that they were so foolish as to only do a DNA swab.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A major international sporting body, citing multiple test conducted by accredited labs, where both defendants have a legal right to neutral arbitration is shaky ground?

Those things weren't disclosed, so yes it's shaky ground.

 

[Augustus]

She does not bear the burden of proof. It is rather amazing that you do not understand this

It's rather amazing that you can't understand that once you are banned by a major sporting body based on tests conducted by 2 accredited labs and accept the test results in a legally binding manner instead of using your right to neutral arbitration to prove your innocence you now have a burden of proof if you expect other people not to believe the results that you personally have accepted in a legally blinding manner.

It's not just some chap off the internet, it is a major sporting body signed up to legally binding arbitration from the CAS with tests done by 2 named labs.

I have repeatedly stated and shown that she likely has Swyer Syndrome and would not have undergone male puberty.

How did you "show" this?

Swyer would be required to take hormones to even undergo female puberty. She would require a TUE for anti-doping reasons for this, Unless you think she hasn't even undergone female puberty, that is. She would also likely have had surgery to remove undeveloped gonads that can become cancerous.

Also feel free to explain rationally how, contingent on being an elite women's athlete, the most likely XY DSD is one that gives you an athletic disadvantage, rather than one of the forms that gives you a massive athletic advantage.

I did link you to a discussion by a leading expert if you want to be better informed.

One poorly designed test cannot prove that she went through male puberty. The IBA has not made its details public but it appears that they were so foolish as to only do a DNA swab.

Again the test could have been overturned in court if it had been false. Keep clutching at those straws.

Also, her own trainer said she was tested in France and was "a woman despite her chromosomes and testosterone level". Sound quite strange for Swyer, no?

If only there were well known XY DSDs that lead to high testosterone too and are the ones we would almost certainly expect contingent on knowing the woman in question is both XY and an elite athlete.

 

[Father Heathen]

They should be free to identify and live as women and be treated as women if that is their choice.

Just that elite sports should be based on sex, not gender identity. Especially boxing as risk to participants is based on sex rather than gender identity, and exposing others to this increased risk is unethical.

You have to favour inclusion or safety/fairness. There is no way to balance these. Currently, the IOC rules allow biological males who have undergone male puberty to fight females.

What are your views on those who have undergone male puberty fighting females? Is inclusion or safety more important?

My post was mostly addressed to those who suggested that she be addressed as "he", despite her identifying as female and isn't even trans.
But personally I believe safety and fairness should be prioritized.

 

[Augustus]

Those things weren't disclosed, so yes it's shaky ground.

They weren't disclosed as she chose to accept the results in a legally binding manner thus severely limiting her career, stripping her of world medals and tarnishing her legacy forever instead of just proving them to be malicious lies and getting rich in the process.

*Homer Simpson voice* "Of coooourse I can objectively prove myyyy innocence, I juuust don't want toooo"

You can't seriously think that that the most likely explanation is a massive conspiracy that people planned knowing it would only work if she decided to play along with their lies rather than doing what you would expect any reasonable person to do which is use the objective evidence they have which proves their innocence.

Also by your logic, no one could ever fail a sex eligibility test for any sport, as all they need to do is keep the results secret while taking the lifetime ban. Anyone who said this alone suggests they likely failed the test would simply be engaging in baseless speculation!

 

[Brian2]

There are already two threads about this, but I wanted to clarify in a separate thread what I find to be an absolutely disgraceful, misogynistic, and dehumanizing false narrative pushed by some media outlets and social-media ideologues who traffic in outrage.

Imane Khelif is an Algerian boxer whose win over her Italian counterpart, Angela Carini, has sparked controversy and objections, including from Giorgia Meloni, the Italian prime minister:

https://www.reuters.com/sports/olympics/boxing-algerian-khelif-advances-after-italys-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-2024-08-01/

Imane Khelif is and has always been a biological female. She is not trans; she is a woman whose appearance is masculine by typical perceptions. She is a biological female competing in women's boxing.

Algerian law and society wouldn't allow Khelif to represent the country if she were trans, as both the state and society are not accepting of trans people. The outrage is not even grounded in an accurate understanding of Algerian social and legal norms.

I find the venom and hatred aimed at her over her appearance and strength, which have been attributed to her supposedly being trans, even though she's a biological female to be absolutely repulsive and disgraceful. Many of those who claim to be against misogyny in women's sports are now engaging in rank misogyny against a woman for her appearance. I just wanted to clarify this piece of news, especially given that many of the comments I have seen on it demonstrate complete lack of knowledge about Algerian law and society. I believe that there are legitimate and strongly grounded concerns regarding trans women's participation in physical women's sports, but this woman is a biological female and has always been so. She is being baselessly dragged into a completely separate controversy.

What I heard is that the International Boxing Association has scientifically classed her as male in the past and the IOC decided to not use the IBA classification this year, but to use their own classification, with unscientific classification method.
I got my information from this site:

It is an interesting discussion.
The first 16 minutes give all the relevant information but the rest of the discussion is interesting also.

 

[Viker]

So. What we have learned is that being born female and having female on one's birth certificate is not what makes one a female/woman. One must be able to conform to cultural and preferable aesthetic standards of what constitutes feminity/womanhood. Interesting.

 

[Brian2]

So. What we have learned is that being born female and having female on one's birth certificate is not what makes one a female/woman. One must be able to conform to cultural and preferable aesthetic standards of what constitutes feminity/womanhood. Interesting.

Was this post directed to my post directly above it? If so, it appears not to make sense unless you did not listen to the interview I posted.
Having "female" on one's birth certificate and passport does not mean that the person in question should compete against women in sporting contests. That should be a question of science.

 

[Viker]

Was this post directed to my post directly above it? If so, it appears not to make sense unless you did not listen to the interview I posted.
Having "female" on one's birth certificate and passport does not mean that the person in question should compete against women in sporting contests. That is a question of science.

So. They're not a woman? What standard are we using now?

My post was to the general spirit in this thread that suggests, after being debunked, that this maligned boxer is not a woman.

If she's a woman why can't she compete in women's sports? This is insanity. Women aren't even women anymore. They have to be pretty and perfectly feminine and be able to prove they're women first! A visual test? An examination?

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's rather amazing that you can't understand that once you are banned by a major sporting body based on tests conducted by 2 accredited labs and accept the test results in a legally binding manner instead of using your right to neutral arbitration to prove your innocence you now have a burden of proof if you expect other people not to believe the results that you personally have accepted in a legally blinding manner.

It's not just some chap off the internet, it is a major sporting body signed up to legally binding arbitration from the CAS with tests done by 2 named labs.



How did you "show" this?

Swyer would be required to take hormones to even undergo female puberty. She would require a TUE for anti-doping reasons for this, Unless you think she hasn't even undergone female puberty, that is. She would also likely have had surgery to remove undeveloped gonads that can become cancerous.

Also feel free to explain rationally how, contingent on being an elite women's athlete, the most likely XY DSD is one that gives you an athletic disadvantage, rather than one of the forms that gives you a massive athletic advantage.

I did link you to a discussion by a leading expert if you want to be better informed.



Again the test could have been overturned in court if it had been false. Keep clutching at those straws.

Also, her own trainer said she was tested in France and was "a woman despite her chromosomes and testosterone level". Sound quite strange for Swyer, no?

If only there were well known XY DSDs that lead to high testosterone too and are the ones we would almost certainly expect contingent on knowing the woman in question is both XY and an elite athlete.

That was all explained to you many times. If you can't understand by now you will never understand.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They weren't disclosed as she chose to accept the results in a legally binding manner thus severely limiting her career, stripping her of world medals and tarnishing her legacy forever instead of just proving them to be malicious lies and getting rich in the process.

*Homer Simpson voice* "Of coooourse I can objectively prove myyyy innocence, I juuust don't want toooo"

You can't seriously think that that the most likely explanation is a massive conspiracy that people planned knowing it would only work if she decided to play along with their lies rather than doing what you would expect any reasonable person to do which is use the objective evidence they have which proves their innocence.

Also by your logic, no one could ever fail a sex eligibility test for any sport, as all they need to do is keep the results secret while taking the lifetime ban. Anyone who said this alone suggests they likely failed the test would simply be engaging in baseless speculation!

Wrong again. You are not properly representing her choices or why the IBA was stripped of their authority with the Olympics .

 

[Augustus]

That was all explained to you many times. If you can't understand by now you will never understand.

You insisted she almost certainly has a performance inhibiting DSD that requires HRT to undergo female puberty as well operations and would have to be declared to anti doping authorities.

Obviously more likely than the performance enhancing DSDs we know are very over represented in elite women’s sports.

You also insist she prefer fewer medals, life bans and tarnished legacies than vindication, pristine legacy and millions of dollars.

Of course she does, who wouldn’t if put in her shoes…

You also failed to address the fact her own trainer confirmed she has abnormalities with chromosomes and testosterone. Perhaps he’s in on the conspiracy too though.

Unsurprisingly, I’m not putting much stock in your rationality of objective consideration of evidence in this case

Never had you for a science denier though before this thread.

Wrong again. You are not properly representing her choices or why the IBA was stripped of their authority with the Olympics .

Basically all major sporting bodies are corrupt. The IBA, the IOC, FIFA, etc. That doesn’t mean they just randomly engage in malicious vendettas for no reason.

Even if they did, people engage in corruption on a manner that is hard to detect or challenge, not one that can be objectively proved by the victim at any point they choose to defend themselves.

The point of corruption is money or power, getting caught so blatantly loses you both.

Of course they lied in a manner so stupid they are near certain to get caught. That’s clearly the most plausible explanation of the evidence

 

[SkepticThinker]

So. What we have learned is that being born female and having female on one's birth certificate is not what makes one a female/woman. One must be able to conform to cultural and preferable aesthetic standards of what constitutes feminity/womanhood. Interesting.

Interesting indeed.

From the crowd that has been adamantly telling us that gender is decided by what's between one's legs and what one's birth certificate says.

Interesting indeed.

 

[Augustus]

So. What we have learned is that being born female and having female on one's birth certificate is not what makes one a female/woman. One must be able to conform to cultural and preferable aesthetic standards of what constitutes feminity/womanhood. Interesting.

What we have learned is that people with male DSDs are sometimes assigned female at birth, especially in developing countries (for example Caster Semenya).

They are raised as girls then undergo male puberty.

At this point most socially transition to their biological sex. Some retain a female gender identity.

Also, many female boxers do not conform to traditional feminine aesthetics, yet for some reason 2 were singled out for a baseless conspiracy that had a 100% probability of being overturned in the court they had an automatic right to challenge the decision in.

If she's a woman why can't she compete in women's sports? This is insanity.

Many sports are based on sex, not gender identity.

You can favour inclusion or safety/fairness, but not both.

Boxing based on gender identity means significantly increased risk for females.

Even if you favour inclusion, it should seem perfectly reasonable that others may prefer to follow what the science shows regarding safety and fairness.

 

[Kathryn]

Here's a plain ol' 21st century white American woman's perspective:

Typically yes, gender is decided by what is between one's legs and what one's birth certificate says. However, this scenario is not typical, because it involves an Olympic boxer. She needs to be tested thoroughly as to whether she is male or female. My gosh, she should have already been tested, by a doctor of medicine. She needs to also be categorized appropriately for her weight, height, etc. in Olympic boxing.

There's much ado made over the fact that she has not won all her matches. Good grief, so what. She's been competing at a world class level. Many men could not win against some of these female boxers at world class levels.

 

[Brian2]

So. They're not a woman? What standard are we using now?

My post was to the general spirit in this thread that suggests, after being debunked, that this maligned boxer is not a woman.

If she's a woman why can't she compete in women's sports? This is insanity. Women aren't even women anymore. They have to be pretty and perfectly feminine and be able to prove they're women first! A visual test? An examination?

How do you tell if someone is a woman or not?

 

[Augustus]

Interesting indeed.

From the crowd that has been adamantly telling us that gender is decided by what's between one's legs and what one's birth certificate says.

Interesting indeed.

This seems to be the problem.

Americans cannot get past the idea that not everything in the world revolves around their parochial partisan politics.

So folk must reflexively pick a side and assume the other side reflects the enemy in the American political divide.

For both sides it’s science be damned if it doesn’t support the party line.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This seems to be the problem.

Americans cannot get past the idea that not everything in the world revolves around their parochial partisan politics.

So folk must reflexively pick a side and assume the other side reflects the enemy in the American political divide.

For both sides it’s science be damned if it doesn’t support the party line.

That's funny because I'm Canadian.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You insisted she almost certainly has a performance inhibiting DSD that requires HRT to undergo female puberty as well operations and would have to be declared to anti doping authorities.

Obviously more likely than the performance enhancing DSDs we know are very over represented in elite women’s sports.

You also insist she prefer fewer medals, life bans and tarnished legacies than vindication, pristine legacy and millions of dollars.

Of course she does, who wouldn’t if put in her shoes…

You also failed to address the fact her own trainer confirmed she has abnormalities with chromosomes and testosterone. Perhaps he’s in on the conspiracy too though.

Unsurprisingly, I’m not putting much stock in your rationality of objective consideration of evidence in this case

Never had you for a science denier though before this thread.




Basically all major sporting bodies are corrupt. The IBA, the IOC, FIFA, etc. That doesn’t mean they just randomly engage in malicious vendettas for no reason.

Even if they did, people engage in corruption on a manner that is hard to detect or challenge, not one that can be objectively proved by the victim at any point they choose to defend themselves.

The point of corruption is money or power, getting caught so blatantly loses you both.

Of course they lied in a manner so stupid they are near certain to get caught. That’s clearly the most plausible explanation of the evidence

Wrong again. I pointed out that she probably did not go through puberty at all. You were the one that kept insisting that she went through male puberty while the sort of intersex that she appears to have do not go through puberty. Male or female. Many of them in the civilized world will go through female puberty by using hormone replacement therapy. But I do not think that Algeria would be considered civilized in this sense since they are still using the Ostrich Defense when it comes to the fact that sexuality is a spectrum.

And of course all of your claims about me are just strawman arguments again. Where or how did I ever argue any of that? You forgot why what the IBA did to her and the Taiwanese boxer made them lose their Olympic status. But ignoring uncomfortable facts appears to be your specialty at times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's funny because I'm Canadian.

Oh noes!! That means that you are extra woke. There is a reason that Tim Horton's is banned in the US!!