The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer

[Kathryn]

I feel sorry for her, I really do. What a mess. She needs a hormonal work up though, and if she is not as "female" as her boxing opponents, she doesn't need to fight them. Let her fight someone else.

 

[Augustus]

I don't disagree with any of this; I just think the discussion about the competition of women with DSD against other women in physical sports certainly doesn't need the vile dehumanization and the misidentification of the former as "biological males" or "males who are cheating." Many media outlets and public figures, including ones with a lot of reach such as Elon Musk and J. K. Rowling, have repeated the factually incorrect claim that Imane Khelif is a male. I find this absolutely reprehensible, especially given that it can and has already contributed to inspiring a barrage of venomous attacks on her.

What could be a useful and necessary discussion has largely turned into yet another political football based on a false assumption (i.e., that Imane Khelif is a biological male), so now much of the discourse around the match against Angela Carini is focused on said assumption instead of DSD and its possible effects on athletic performance. I touched on this in an earlier post:

I agree it is a problem that these discussions are carried out in public and I have a lot of sympathy for the athletes involved as it must be awful for them.

This is where “inclusive” ideology does no favours as it creates these problems when the science is pretty clear on the advantages and thus dangers.

On DSD issues the science is absolutely clear that undergoing a form of male puberty gives massive advantages.

DSD conditions by definition are about atypical sex characteristics, and that can include children who appeared female to undergo a form of male puberty.

In developing countries DSD are less likely to be identified early and treated.

Describing her as biologically male, may actually be accurate, even though she was assigned female at birth and is not “pretending” to be a woman.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The problem is reducing a human to cold, scientific labels that go against their sense of self which is why such public trials are so distasteful.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Sporting News reports:

Imane Khelif gender eligibility test explained: Why IOC doesn't recognize
'sudden and arbitrary' disqualification from IBA World Championship​

BTW, according to the article:

Carini didn't say whether she believed Khelif should have been allowed to fight. "It's up to the IOC to judge," she said after the defeat.​

And from the BBC:

Italian boxer Angela Carini, who abandoned her Olympic bout against Algeria's Imane Khelif inside 46 seconds, says she "wants to apologise" to her opponent for how she handled the moments after the fight.​

​

Khelif is one of two athletes who have been cleared to compete in the women's boxing in Paris, despite having been disqualified from last year's Women's World Championships for failing to meet eligibility criteria.​

​

The 25-year-old's participation in the Games has proved controversial, leading the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to defend her right to compete.​

​

"All this controversy makes me sad," Carini told Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport.​

​

"I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision."​

​

Carini, also 25, said abandoning the fight had been a mature step to take, but she expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.​

​

"It wasn't something I intended to do," Carini said. "Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke."​

​

She added that if she met Khelif again, she would "embrace her".​

She, too, is a winner in my book.

 

[Augustus]

Does the fact that she has lost 9 figts previously not undermine the idea that this is a "male range" fighter?

Edit: Her record is not great. Fought 51, lost 9. That's nowhere near the top women boxing records.

Put me in the ring with the woman’s Olympic champion at my weight and she’d beat me no doubt.

Using this fact as a reason why we don’t need to worry about those who have undergone a form of male puberty boxing against those who have not would be a silly argument.

 

[Augustus]

It has to do with Harris and Biden just getting a bill passed that allows trans she-he's to use female facilities, thereby taking away their privacy and legally invading their sports. This is being kept hush since it will cause them to lose female votes.

It has literally nothing to do with this.

The world doesn’t revolve around parochial US partisanship.

 

[George-ananda]

This has nothing to do with Algerian law and society but biology.

The facts as I understand them is that she has XY (male) chromosomes and has failed female gender testing because of high testosterone.

My thought is that she should not be allowed to compete as a woman boxer because of these facts for the protection and fairness to other females with XX chromosomes.

Now, as far as I know, I have no problem with Imane Khelif personally. This appears to be a genetic birth condition over which she has no personal control. With this type of testing available I think she should not be allowed to box as a woman for the safety and fairness of the women with the standard XX chromosomes.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This has nothing to do with Algerian law and society but biology.

The facts as I understand them is that she has XY (male) chromosomes and has failed female gender testing because of high testosterone.

My thought is that she should not be allowed to compete as a woman boxer because of these facts for the protection and fairness to other females with XX chromosomes.

Now, as far as I know, I have no problem with Imane Khelif personally. This appears to be a genetic birth condition over which she has no personal control. With this type of testing available I think she should not be allowed to box as a woman for the safety and fairness of the women with the standard XX chromosomes.

Any actual link to the test or who made the test of XY?

 

[Augustus]

Any actual link to the test or who made the test of XY?

I think it was done by boxing authorities which is why she was banned from previous competitions.

These can be done with cheek swab tests of the kind you can send off in the post to discover your ancestry.

An adverse finding would then potentially lead to more advanced testing.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think it was done by boxing authorities which is why she was banned from previous competitions.

These can be done with cheek swab tests of the kind you can send off in the post to discover your ancestry.

An adverse finding would then potentially lead to more advanced testing.

I found an Forces article that stated it was only alleged by a leader of a boxing organisation.

 

[George-ananda]

Any actual link to the test or who made the test of XY?

I don't have links to the test but am reporting what I've read from different sources.

But let's not make the case about this particular individual. A better topic is the general question of should women with XY chromosomes and high testosterone levels be allowed to box against women with XX chromosomes. I am saying 'No' for fairness and safety reasons.

 

[Augustus]

I found an Forces article that stated it was only alleged by a leader of a boxing organisation.

Medical test results would be confidential unless released by the person in question.

The fact she was banned suggests something showed up as doing this without evidence would go to court.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Medical test results would be confidential unless released by the person in question.

The fact she was banned suggests something showed up as doing this without evidence would go to court.

Yeah, that is it. Something showed up.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't have links to the test but am reporting what I've read from different sources.

But let's not make the case about this particular individual. A better topic is the general question of should women with XY chromosomes and high testosterone levels be allowed to box against women with XX chromosomes. I am saying 'No' for fairness and safety reasons.

Okay. I leave it to the people involved.

 

[Yerda]

Put me in the ring with the woman’s Olympic champion at my weight and she’d beat me no doubt.

Using this fact as a reason why we don’t need to worry about those who have undergone a form of male puberty boxing against those who have not would be a silly argument.

It would be, yes.

Whether people with atypical sex development are involved in sports is something for the sports to decide. I think we can safely rule out the idea that this woman is capable of fighting like a similarly weighed male (if the SDS rumours are true), given that she has lost on 9 separate occasions to other women.

 

[Absolutely Frank]

Drug testing at the Olympics is conducted by the International Testing Agency which was founded by and is a part of the International Olympic Committee (IOC)

Did you read the article? It says the same damn thing I have been repeating over and over again. The IFs conduct the test under the watchful eyes of the various NADAs utilizing the guidelines provided by the WADAs. The tests are then managed by the ITA for the IOC.

 

[Absolutely Frank]

It has to do with Harris and Biden just getting a bill passed that allows trans she-he's to use female facilities, thereby taking away their privacy and legally invading their sports. This is being kept hush since it will cause them to lose female votes.

Democracy is about the will of the majority and not a DNC cabal lording over everyone to entitle a few. We need to take a vote and let the majority decide. The DNC is not about a Democratic process. Maybe a male boxer can challenge Imane Khelif, so the shoe can be put on the other foot.

This has nothing to do with Harris or Biden. They don't run the IOC.

 

[Absolutely Frank]

AFAIK She is someone who has a DSD condition that gives her something close to a male puberty type advantage.

It’s not that she simply looks masculine or has higher than normal testosterone for a woman.

In a sport like boxing you can’t just aim to be maximally inclusive regarding things like this.

The average male punches at 167% of the average female, and some people with DSD are more in the male range, not the female. It genuinely can be a matter of life and death. This is why boxing has so many weight classes as mismatches in power are dangerous.

This is not simply US culture wars spilling over it is the view of many scientists who have looked at the evidence.

This is why governing bodies in combat and collision sports are much stricter than the IOC on this because they will get sued as they understand the science behind injuries.

In many sports it’s simply a question of inclusion v fairness with regard to DSD, in others it will reduce the number of deaths or life changing injuries.

Just because some bigots jump on the bandwagon, doesn’t mean the objection is simply irrational bigotry.

She is banned from competing in most other boxing events for scientific reasons that have nothing to do with right wing politics.

There is no longer any boxing federation that the IOC cooperates with to do the testing. The IOC banned the IBA dues to politics - namely the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. Unless a boxing federation is created to replace the IBA boxing events might be eliminated from LA 2028

 

[Absolutely Frank]

Could you please edit or rephrase this?

No. My grammatical or spelling mistakes are not the issue being discussed here. If you wish for me to clarify then simply ask for clarity. Stay on topic.

 

[The Hammer]

Did you read the article? It says the same damn thing I have been repeating over and over again. The IFs conduct the test under the watchful eyes of the various NADAs utilizing the guidelines provided by the WADAs. The tests are then managed by the ITA for the IOC.

Mmmmm. Acronym soup.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you wish for me to clarify then simply ask for clarity.

I thought that's what I did.

You wrote: "But what we know know is if she juiced or not but ..."

I make typing and grammatical mistakes all the time. It happens. Still, what you wrote could be read as

1. "But what we know don't know is if she juiced or not but ...", or
2. "But what we know now know is if she juiced or not but ..."

I'm sorry you took offense.