Absolutely Frank
Member
That's what you should have pointed out. I appreciate your correction so much I will now subscribe to you instead of Grammarly
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
Whine less ...
Absolutely Frank
Member
Do I have to explain to you why most civilize people believe people who constantly nitpick about grammar and spelling are fricking annoying? You don't get to whine about my grammar then call me a whiner. Quit trying to derail the thread.
Augustus
…
She is banned by boxing authorities, Olympic rules are different and cover all kinds of events.
Governing bodies for individual combat and collision sports take the risks more seriously.
Amateur boxing matches are not always won by the hardest punchers. If she was a technically better boxer should she be banned? She is still young so is still likely still improving.
But the argument that we should let athletes with DSD conditions who have undergone a form of male puberty fight in women’s classes unless they are too good is silly.
The science is pretty clear on the benefits of male puberty on athletic performance, and the risks it increases in combat and collision sports.
Your argument seems to be that we should wait until someone gets seriously injured before accepting well established scientific understandings.
Augustus
…
@Debater Slayer you might be interested in this discussion.
This is not a polemicist or culture warrior, but a Professor in sports science who has been involved in crafting the regulations for World Rugby, and also as an expert advisor in the legal cases around Caster Semenya.
It is a very nuanced and reasoned discussion regarding the science of DSD and why people raised as females and who view themselves as females may technically be biologically male and have undergone male puberty.
As such these athletes are not females with elevated testosterone, but males with normal levels of testosterone who have a DSD that prevents it from being used in the same way as most males.
Either they have androgen insensitivity, or can process it fully except for the part that causes male genitalia to develop.
They are clear that it is not necessarily people “pretending” to be female, but do point out it only usually happens in the developing world as it is not identified and treated when they are young.
It’s about 45 mins long, but it is very interesting as regards the science.
shows.acast.com
This is not a polemicist or culture warrior, but a Professor in sports science who has been involved in crafting the regulations for World Rugby, and also as an expert advisor in the legal cases around Caster Semenya.
It is a very nuanced and reasoned discussion regarding the science of DSD and why people raised as females and who view themselves as females may technically be biologically male and have undergone male puberty.
As such these athletes are not females with elevated testosterone, but males with normal levels of testosterone who have a DSD that prevents it from being used in the same way as most males.
Either they have androgen insensitivity, or can process it fully except for the part that causes male genitalia to develop.
They are clear that it is not necessarily people “pretending” to be female, but do point out it only usually happens in the developing world as it is not identified and treated when they are young.
It’s about 45 mins long, but it is very interesting as regards the science.
Paris 2024: Males Are About To Fight in Women's Boxing. How Did We Get Here? | The Real Science of Sport Podcast
Controversy in Paris as biological males compete in women's boxing and football. We explore the issues
shows.acast.com
Yerda
Veteran Member
I have read she was banned from one event, right before the final.
My argument would be that this person obviously does not have a significant advantage over other women. I don't know whether she really has a developmental condition - I've only seen speculation.
I was responding to your suggestion that she is akin to male fighter. Her fighting record suggests otherwise.
rocala
Well-Known Member
I just feel so very,very sorry for this young woman. This should / could have been the most exciting time of her life. Instead, although she has done nothing wrong, it has probably become her nightmare.
I can see that there are issues here that people feel are very important but surely it could have been handled with more sensitivity.
I can see that there are issues here that people feel are very important but surely it could have been handled with more sensitivity.
Augustus
…
The science is unequivocal that she has a natural advantage from being biologically male and undergoing male puberty.
Whether she is better overall is impacted by skill levels too. A non elite male can be an elite female.
She was fighting for a world championship.
The other fighter with DSD condition is a multiple world champion.
I’m not sure how much better they need to get before it becomes relevant to consider the risk factor.
But basing the rules on whether any individual is “too good” makes no sense.
If you are interested, this is a leading expert who has been involved in creating safety rules for world rugby and was also involved in the Caster Semenya case.
He explains the science behind it, and later on explains how people with DSD assigned female at birth and raised female can actually be biologically male. This is not to say they are pretending or deliberately cheating, just that a medical condition has not been identified.
From around 7 mins in for 5 or so minutes if you don’t want to listen to the whole thing.
Paris 2024: Males Are About To Fight in Women's Boxing. How Did We Get Here? | The Real Science of Sport Podcast
Controversy in Paris as biological males compete in women's boxing and football. We explore the issues
shows.acast.com
Augustus
…
I agree it is awful on a personal level and it must be terrible for her.
This is a problem with the rules and governance of the IOC though.
With issues like this you can prioritise inclusion or you can prioritise safety and fairness.
When you prioritise inclusion over safety and fairness then you should be open and honest about it. If legal gender is what matters, not biological sex then be open about the increased risks this entails. They are not though.
There is a genuine risk involved and those being exposed to that risk also have a right to feel hard done by on both safety and fairness grounds.
It does no one any favours.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
You are aware that the rules of the IOC are in a sense in the end international politics when it really matters.
I get what you are saying and I agree. I just feel that our POV is colored by a certain cultural understanding.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
"The IOC has established a zero-tolerance policy to combat cheating and hold accountable anyone responsible for using or providing doping products. The organisation’s efforts are focused on prevention through detection and deterrence, supported by athlete and entourage education.
The IOC’s fight against doping began in earnest in the 1960s. In 1999, it supported the establishment of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), a global anti-doping regulator made up of, and funded equally by, the sports movement and governments of the world to carry out scientific research, education, development of anti-doping capacities, and monitoring of the World Anti-Doping Code.
At the Olympic Summit held in October 2015, the IOC proposed an anti-doping testing and sanctioning system independent from sports organisations.
Since March 2016, it has delegated the decisions on alleged anti-doping rule violations during the Games to an independent body, namely a new Anti-Doping Division of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). The CAS Anti-Doping Division has replaced the IOC Disciplinary Commission to hear and decide on doping cases at the Olympic Games.
In 2017, the IOC Executive Board included the creation of the International Testing Agency (ITA), an independent organisation specialised in managing anti-doping programmes, in its 12 principles for a more robust and independent global anti-doping system to protect clean athletes.
Since 2019, the IOC has delegated responsibility for the organisation and management of doping control at the Olympic Games to the ITA.
The IOC has called on all International Federations to follow these steps and fully delegate their entire testing programmes to the ITA and sanctioning to the CAS Anti-Doping Division."
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Who do you suggest she should fight?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hopefully someone else like her. If there's no one to fight, that's the breaks, I guess.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How's that supposed to work?
Or she just continues to fight women because she is a woman.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Mayve and hopefully it does work. I don't know whether it would or not. And neither do you.
Like I said, I feel sorry for her but boxing needs more controls IMO than the Olympics is using.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Why do you say that?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Sigh. Because I believe it.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Sigh. Why do you believe it?