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The battle of evolution vs creationism

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is even harder is understanding the cultural anthropology, so you can understand just when they ancient men were actually being literal, and when they were not.
All the more reason why someone saying "The Bible tells us _______", is hardly reliable. And add to this what you pointed out, that at each stage of development how they read and interpret it through that developmental lens will radically change what they believe is being said.

For instance, in the Bible taking Jesus as an example, you have those who see him as a magical Jesus, those who see him as an ethnocentric warrior Jesus, those who see him as a universalist, those who see him as rationalist, those who see him as basically a reflection of their own level of seeing the world.

Understanding this radically changes how one approaches these things, and being literal and suggesting that the original authors meant this or that, misses the point of the function of sacred text altogether.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'm no scientist but there are non-credible scientists that are working on it. It's the study of baraminology.
Ah yes, baraminology. That notable creationist pseudo-science with its stellar underpinnings.
"The idea of a baramin was proposed in 1941 by Frank Marsh, but was criticized for a lack of formal definition. In 1990 Kurt Wise and Walter ReMine introduced baraminology in pursuit of acceptable criteria for membership in a baramin."
Kurt Patrick Wise is an American young earth creationist who serves as the Director of Creation Research Center at Truett-McConnell College. He has a PhD in geology from Harvard University.

Walter ReMine
Walter received an M.Sc. in Electrical Engineering (MSEE)
If only more geologists and electrical engineers would weigh in so as to set biology straight. :rolleyes:


Of course we know that change happens, so why couldn’t an intelligent being create a kind of creature with the genes in it already to change and adapt to its surroundings?
Maybe it has, but in as much as there's no evidence for such a being there's no reason to entertain the possibility.

Credible scientist agree that there were probably one or two original humans and look at the differences we have with them now.
If you're simply going to make up stuff I suggest you peddle to the gullible, not to those of us who know better.

Look at the different dogs, credible scientists agree that they probably came from the wolf or a wolf like creature.
And they're all considered to be a subspecies of Canis lupus. So, what's your point?

The creation orchard model best fits the credible scientist’s data.
No it doesn't because, for one thing, the orchard model is required to accommodate the Noah "kind" problem, which has yet to be explained away with anything other than ridiculous presumptions. At best the orchard model is a diversionary amusement, which doesn't warrant anyone's serious attention. Best to leave it on the shelf next to baraminology where it too can gather dust and mold.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Oh Mr. Man of Faith, I'm still waiting for some refutation of my earlier points. I'm also waiting for an explanation for how light can travel billions of light-years in only 6,000 years...

While I'm waiting, I feel that I will bring up another issue: radiological dating techniques. A lot of people have heard about them and understand some of the basics (measuring the ratio of radioisotopes to their decay products), but they do not understand the specifics of it. Due to this lack of in-depth understanding, there are a few common arguments made against it. Three such arguments are as follows:

(1) We cannot know what the original amount of decay products was when the rock was originally formed.
(2) Rocks are not closed systems.
(3) We cannot know that the decay rate has been constant.

Now let me refute each one of these points using my favorite dating technique: uranium-lead dating of zircon crystals. Uranium eventually decays into stable lead, so measuring the ratio of lead to uranium should yield information about the time it took for the uranium to decay. Here is how it works:

Zircon is another name for zirconium silicate, which has the formula ZrSiO4. During formation, other elements can sometimes enter the mineral while it is in a molten state and get stuck inside the crystal matrix. Uranium is known to do this, replacing zirconium in certain spots. What is interesting about zircon is that it will not allow lead into its lattice during formation. Lead has chemical properties that are incompatible with zircon. It's like mixing oil and water. This is how we know that there was no lead present when the zircon crystal first formed. Point one has been addressed.

Zircon is a mineral which is durable both chemically and physically. This allows it to survive long periods of time without being disturbed. Does this mean, however, that cracks never form which might allow lead to leak out? Of course not. However, scientists are aware of this. This is why many different rocks from a rock layer are used to establish a date for that layer. If an outside event has disturbed the layer, some rocks will be affected more than others. Some will be completely broken or fractured, others will have only tiny cracks and still others will be unharmed. The ones that have obvious damage are thrown out and not measured in the first place. It is by measuring the dates of all of the good quality rocks together and plotting them on a graph (forming what is called concordia and discordia lines) that we can extrapolate what the age of that layer is. The rocks that have lost the least lead would look the youngest and are therefore the ones that are closest to the true age of the layer.

Imagine what the case would be if some of the lead leaked out of all of the rocks that was studied in a way that we currently cannot predict. That would mean that the ages we measure for that layer would be an underestimate. This would be a mistake in the exact opposite direction that creationists would want, as it would mean that little 4.2 billion year-old rock we measured over there is actually older than we think it is.

Now consider what might occur if lead leeched into cracks in the rocks through ground water. Would we be able to tell? The answer is yes. When various isotopes of uranium decay, they can only produce certain kinds of lead isotopes. One isotope that does not result from uranium decay (or indeed, the decay of any other naturally occurring isotopes) is lead-204. Lead-204 makes up between 1-2% of naturally-occurring lead. So if any lead-204 is found inside a zircon crystal, then we know that rock has been contaminated and can therefore throw it out. Point two has been addressed.

Now we have point three: the idea that decay rates can change over time. We do know that decay rates can be changed by certain things. One such example is sustained nuclear fission. In essence, that is the definition of radioactive decay happening at a crazy high rate. However, nuclear fission requires a very specific set of circumstances (not exactly common in nature) and not all isotopes of uranium will work. The ratio of uranium-238 to uranium-235 would tell us if fission has occurred. Since U238 is not fissile but U235 is, then the presence of fission would cause the amount of U235 to be depleted relative to the amount of U238. Indeed, there is some speculation that a natural fission reactor once existed in Oklo, Gabon due to the depleted levels of U235 there.

The common factors that affect rocks, such as heat, pressure, weathering and humidity have absolutely no effect on natural decay rates. I have seen one suggestion that neutrino background radiation could change the decay rate of radioisotopes, but there are some problems with that idea. Firstly, neutrino interactions with matter are extraordinarily rare. In fact, neutrinos could pass through light-years of lead without being absorbed. Secondly, even if background neutrinos did affect decay rates, then the original measure of the decay rates of uranium isotopes would have automatically taken that into account (since neutrinos are zipping through the Earth every moment of every day and so would have caused the tested sample to decay just as quickly as their counterparts stuck in the rocks). If one was to suggest that background radiation was significantly higher in the past than it is now, it would be up to that individual to provide evidence for this. As of now, we have no reason to believe it has changed enough to matter.

So there you have it. That's why the rocks that we have dated simply cannot be only 6,000 years old (unless you want to argue that God made the rocks look old when they are in fact young, which would not only present an "author of confusion" problem but it would also raise the question of why He would want us to believe in a young Earth if He went through the trouble to make it look old).
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Oh Mr. Man of Faith, I'm still waiting for some refutation of my earlier points. I'm also waiting for an explanation for how light can travel billions of light-years in only 6,000 years...

.


He magically remains hidden when faced with credible and valid questions he has no answers to.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I feel like putting up another point that I want Man of Faith (or any other creationist here) to address:

In humans, there is a gene called PMP-22 that has identical sequences of DNA on both sides of it called CMT1A repeats. The reason it is on both sides is because of a duplication mutation which copied it from one side and added it to the other side. There is no known function for this duplication and indeed it can even have a negative impact (such as generating genetic diseases during fertilization). So we can consider this to be a random genetic flaw. No problem here, right? Creationists accept that mutations can have bad effects.

The interesting thing is that the two species of chimpanzees have this exact same mutation whereas gorillas and orangutans do not. To explain this, we can offer three possibilities:

(1) God created the exact same useless/harmful DNA sequence in the exact same place in both humans and chimpanzees. If so, that would not only imply that God originally created humans and chimps with flawed DNA, but that he gave us the same flaw for no apparent reason.
(2) Humans and chimpanzees coincidentally experienced the exact same kind of mutation (a duplication event of CMT1A) in same place in their DNA. Sounds kind of unlikely doesn't it, given that we have thousands of genes and billions of base pairs.
(3) Humans and chimpanzees inherited the duplication mutation from a common ancestor. More specifically, an ancestor that existed after it had already branched off from the gorilla and orangutan lines (explaining why they didn't get the mutation but humans and chimps did). Common ancestry makes it easy to explain.

When you combine this with the fact that both humans and chimpanzees have broken Vitamin C production genes (despite the fact that the vast majority of mammals have theirs still intact), then we now have two coincidentally similar flaws in our DNA. There are probably many more that I have yet to learn of as well.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh no. I've just learned that Mr. Sea Spong may not be the first animal, but the comb jellyfish! Behold the great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparent of Adam and Eve: http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/38619/title/A-New-Basal-Animal/

See, we can't trust science. Always changing their damned minds on these things! From the article, “If the placement of Ctenophores is correct,” he added, “it really changes quite a bit of the text book interpretation that we have about the evolution of morphological complexity.” How can we trust it? Next thing, they're going to say the Bible was right! But at least then, we'll know we can trust them. :)
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Kryptid,

My favorite is the ERV of the c-vitamin gene. The broken gene that we share we chimps.

There are something like 22 ERVs we share. 'Statistically impossible" (something creationists love to use) to be by chance. We have to be related. That's the only explanation, or God is crazy.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
:facepalm:

That's the key word, credible. Because as soon as they have an issue with it, they are no longer deemed credible. Better to keep their head down and do their work, go home and have dinner, watch a movie.
They simply don't have any evidence to the contrary. The evidence for evolution is demonstrable. So much so that its preverse to think otherwise. Every scientist in the world that deals with evolution is game for a challenging theory. However that theory better be able to stand up to scrutiny equal to what evolution has withstood.

Nothing has come close. Scholars for more than a hundred years has thrown evolution against a brick will over and over and over just to make sure its a solid theory. It hasn't cracked yet.
 

McBell

Unbound
I'm no scientist
Yes, you have made that painfully obvious.

but there are non-credible scientists that are working on it. It's the study of baraminology. Of course we know that change happens, so why couldn’t an intelligent being create a kind of creature with the genes in it already to change and adapt to its surroundings? Credible scientist agree that there were probably one or two original humans and look at the differences we have with them now. Look at the different dogs, credible scientists agree that they probably came from the wolf or a wolf like creature. The creation orchard model best fits the credible scientist’s data.

Now that we have the whole "you are not a scientist" thing out of the way, would you please be so kind as to let us know who it is you are parroting?
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Kryptid,

My favorite is the ERV of the c-vitamin gene. The broken gene that we share we chimps.

There are something like 22 ERVs we share. 'Statistically impossible" (something creationists love to use) to be by chance. We have to be related. That's the only explanation, or God is crazy.
Ah yes, thanks for bringing this up. I just went and took a look at this webpage about endogenous retroviruses: ERVs - Evidence for the Evolutionary Model. It would seem that less than 0.1% of the ERVs in chimpanzee and human lineages are unique to either. That means that over 99.9% of the ERVs between us are the same. According to the site, there are about 200,000 ERVs in the human genome, and if 99.9% of those are shared between us and chimps, then it would mean that more than 199,000 ERVs are the same between us. The idea that humans and chimps could have 199,000 instances (or tens of thousands, which is stated at another point) of the same viral DNA inserted into the same spots in our DNA is amazingly laughable. I'd have to say that this may very well be the most powerful evidence of a common ancestor. I like how they even have a response to creationist rebuttals to ERV evidence at the bottom of the page.
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Kryptid,

And then you have unique transposons that we share too.

And genetic markers

And synonymous codons.

Btw, how did Noah avoid scurvy? He would have had a supply of lemons for himself and his family and for the chimps on the ship (and a few other species who has another type of broken c-vitamin gene). It rained for 90 days (very humid and warm, imagine the fermentation of any food, how fast it would spoil), then it was no land to see for another 3 months (or more?). It's hard to imagine the food supply in total for them and all animals.
 
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johnhanks

Well-Known Member
But you are asking me how a tree differs from a web.
Basically the way that I understand it is, based on the scientific data, the tree model can no longer be defended.
But you still will not explain the way you understand it. What "scientific data", exactly, have felled the tree?
Man of Faith, don't you think that if you are going to declare a major scientific paradigm dead and buried, and that you have scientific data to back up that assertion, that it might strengthen your case if you share the data and explain how they kill off the paradigm?
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Kryptid,

And then you have unique transposons that we share too.

And genetic markers

And synonymous codons.

Btw, how did Noah avoid scurvy? He would have had a supply of lemons for himself and his family and for the chimps on the ship (and a few other species who has another type of broken c-vitamin gene). It rained for 90 days (very humid and warm, imagine the fermentation of any food, how fast it would spoil), then it was no land to see for another 3 months (or more?). It's hard to imagine the food supply in total for them and all animals.

Manna from heaven is chock full of vitamin C, silly.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Btw, how did Noah avoid scurvy? He would have had a supply of lemons for himself and his family and for the chimps on the ship (and a few other species who has another type of broken c-vitamin gene). It rained for 90 days (very humid and warm, imagine the fermentation of any food, how fast it would spoil), then it was no land to see for another 3 months (or more?). It's hard to imagine the food supply in total for them and all animals.
The lower decks of the ark were refrigerated. Problem solved.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Relatively simple methods of food preservation have existed for thousands of years. I don't think the vitamin C issue is particularly problematic here. That's not to say that other, much more challenging problems for a literal global flood don't exist.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Relatively simple methods of food preservation have existed for thousands of years. I don't think the vitamin C issue is particularly problematic here. That's not to say that other, much more challenging problems for a literal global flood don't exist.
Drying perhaps? Using salt wasn't used much back then, was it? I saw that there were some references to using certain herbs or something during the ancient Greek, but still, that wasn't for very long trips like this one. Supposedly they were on that ark for something like 9 months (or maybe more?), and even after that, not much would've grown for quite a while. Many fruit trees and such takes a few years to give good crops. Which makes me wonder, they must've had food supply for years to follow. The carnivore animals didn't have anything besides that other arc animals to eat for many years. What did the lions eat after the flood?
 
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McBell

Unbound
Relatively simple methods of food preservation have existed for thousands of years. I don't think the vitamin C issue is particularly problematic here. That's not to say that other, much more challenging problems for a literal global flood don't exist.

Where did they keep all this preserved food?
Remember, there had to be enough food for not only the people, but for the animals.
They were on the Ark for how long?
And then we have to figure in the amount of time for the vegetation to grow back...

So that is an awful lot of food they not only had to preserve, but also store.
 
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