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The Believabliltiy of Evolution

ppp

Well-Known Member
What are we talking about here? It's not babies. Sheesh.
You don't get to dance around avoiding the question and then sheesh me. If you cannot be straightforward in your dealings then I am going to nail you down and give you no wiggle room. If you don't like it, then exercise some probity.

Obviously it wasn't a re arrangement. "Creation"
Not " re creation" . Is that even a real question?
Good. Finally. That is why your baby analogy breaks. That is why I say that we have no evidence of anything coming into existence a la "creation." You don't get to use the rearrangement of existing stuff, like a baby, as evidence of your alleged god poofing stuff into existence from nothing.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Good. Finally. That is why your baby analogy breaks. That is why I say that we have no evidence of anything coming into existence a la "creation." You don't get to use the rearrangement of existing stuff, like a baby, as evidence of your alleged god poofing stuff into existence from nothing.
Lol, that's not what I was using it for... move on.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Cope with the fact that your understanding of what Big Bang cosmology actually says is fundamentally wrong. And that every time you .try to take cosmologist to tasks for your something coming from nothing complaint, you are complaining about a position that doesn't exist outside of the minds of creationists.

Also, cope with the fact that demonstrating that other people are wrong (such as your non-existent cosmologists) does nothing to demonstrate that you are correct. Even if you were able to prove everyone else in the world was incorrect, that would do Absolutely Nothing to lend credence to your position.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Obviously you can either have eternal energy which came from nothing that we can explain or eternal matter or an eternal being... take your pick.
If it comes from absolute nothing, then it is not eternal. What is wrong with energy that is not eternal and has a phase of non-existence? Hawking did not dismiss that possibility.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Lol, another person who has no answers bashing those who offer answers...
I'm not being dishonest at all.

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I gave you answer..I gave you explanations...and nothing I wrote, did I advocate that “something from nothing”, but you keep claiming that’s my answers. Hence, the repeating strawman, and you keep attacking what I didn’t say.

Like I said he just gave point A to point B theory. That's not what I asked.

That because in sciences, with every discoveries and with every understanding of that discoveries, what scientists have learned over the centuries, have been very small and incremental.

There are no scientific field, where you would have ALL THE ANSWERS in a single instance, whether it be in science fields or in the technology and engineering worlds.

Every single knowledge in Natural Sciences and Physical Sciences, today, are based on building each theories, upon past theories and past understanding. So it is understandable that my replies to you go from point A to B, etc.

But we don't just build theories upon past theories (eg through additional understanding, but also modifying and updating, where evidence support such changes and corrections), science also remove theories that's not only outdated, but have been tested to be wrong.

About 270 years ago, they have only started tapping into explain what electricity is (eg Benjamin Franklin), but his explanation and experiment, didn't include understanding of electric and magnetic fields, nor did anyone in this time, knew anything about electrons and the roles electrons play not only electricity, but also EM fields as well as in molecular structure of matters and chemical reactions.

Around this time, they still thought of atoms being the smallest units that make up matters. They didn't know anything about the nuclei, the hadron particles, eg protons and neutrons, and other subatomic particles, quarks, neutrinos, photons and other force-carrier particles.

The understanding of atoms and their composition took time, a long time, and they are still learning something new.

With the advent of Quantum Mechanics, it revolutionary the ways we think. Throughout it all, QM is involved breaking everything down to their small discrete particles. Then it was explained that particles aren't elementary, but everything in the universe, including particles are made of (quantum) fields, hence the Quantum Field Theory (QFT).

Then in 1919, Edwin Hubble discovered with a more powerful telescope - the Hooker Telescope, the largest constructed around that time - discovered that the Milky Way is not the only galaxy in the universe, there were more galaxies, some of which, like Andromeda and Triangulum, were misidentified as nebula during the 18th century.

It was more than just correction of some misidentified objects, the universe is even larger than what Hubble could observe, because apparently the Hooker Telescope isn't powerful to observe more of the universe.

But this discovery did a lot more than just discovering how small the Milky Way is, it revolutionized our understanding of not only astronomy, but also in astrophysics and physical cosmology.

A few years later after Hubble's discovery, Alexander Friedmann (1922), Howard Percy Robertson (1924-25) and Georges Lemaitre (1927), were the earliest pioneer for expanding universe model (which was later known as the Big Bang model, starting in 1949). All 3 physicists used Albert Einstein's field equations from General Relativity as framework, to work backwards on how the universe formed, including the formation of stars and galaxies. Then in 1948, George Gamow (former student of Friedmann), Ralph Alpher & Robert Herman teamed up, and built upon the 1920s' expanding universe model, predicting two vital concept the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN, or the Primordial Nucleosynthesis) and the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).

What does all this Big Bang cosmology, have to do with atoms and smaller particles (Standard Model of Particle Physics, Fundamental Forces, and Quantum Mechanics)?

If you want to understand how do stars, planets, life and matters form, then with some understanding of Standard Model and Quantum Mechanics?

This is where all matters formed, as well as smaller particles. Both BBN and CMBR explain the origin of matters, especially the lightest elements (hydrogen being the most abundant, as well as helium and lithium) which was most of the universe were made of, after Recombination Epoch and CMBR.

Everything we have learned in the last 120 years, with QM & GR, plus Standard Model (particle physics) and more recently the study of fields, Quantum Field Theory (QFT) - all of these require going from point A to B, etc.

But what does religions have to offer, especially Genesis creation, and the pseudoscience Intelligent Design?

Neither offered any logical and testable explanation: and the backward "God did it" and even stupider the life/world/universe being designed requiring a Designer. Both of these are based on ignorance and archaic superstitious beliefs in the supernatural.

You keep saying that sciences have no facts, you keep asking for everyone "to prove it", and yet what have you done?

You have offered less than zero explanation, and you have never demonstrate your belief in the Creator or the Designer, and you haven't proven a thing.

When I had asked you prove what you have claims, you flat out told me, you don't have to prove anything.

What evidence or proof have you given about Creator or Designer?

None. Your claims are backward and illogical. You cannot test or demonstrate the existence of Creator or Designer, and you cannot logically prove either.

Perhaps, I will take you more seriously if "you prove it".
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
If it comes from absolute nothing, then it is not eternal. What is wrong with energy that is not eternal and has a phase of non-existence? Hawking did not dismiss that possibility.
A phase of non-existence? So, it didn't exist and then it does? How? That solves nothing.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
If you want to understand how do stars, planets, life and matters form, then with some understanding of Standard Model and Quantum Mechanics?
No I want to understand how anything came to be, not how already existing elements change. I'm sure you can see the difference. But thanks for the history lesson. It doesn't get to the point but thanks anyway.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
I responded to a specific question about the broken parts of nature. Nature in general tells us that God is artistic- there's no reason that colors are required in nature for example...it tells us he loves order and patterns and diversity. That he is a big God, creating a massive universe we can't see the send of... That's just a little of it.
No. You made a claim that a created universe demands a creator and that you can tell a lot about God by examining creation.

I believe that, but do you consider that demonstrable?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
A phase of non-existence? So, it didn't exist and then it does? How? That solves nothing.
For 'how?', you need to study at least a little of Quantum Mechanics.
And that is better than 'God being eternal' without giving any reason.

Modern Physics:
"The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change. The zero-energy universe hypothesis states that the amount of energy in the universe minus the amount of gravity is exactly zero. In this kind of universe, matter could be created from nothing through a vacuum fluctuation, assuming such a zero-energy universe already is nothing. Such a universe would need to be flat, a state which does not contradict current observations that the universe is flat with a 0.5% margin of error.
Some physicists - such as Lawrence Krauss, Stephen Hawking, and Michio Kaku - define or defined 'nothing' as an unstable quantum vacuum that contains no particles.
Quantum mechanics proposes that pairs of virtual particles are being created from quantum fluctuations in this "empty" space all the time. If these pairs do not mutually annihilate right away, they could be detected as real particles, for example if one falls into a black hole and its opposite is emitted as Hawking radiation"
Nothing comes from nothing - Wikipedia
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
No. You made a claim that a created universe demands a creator and that you can tell a lot about God by examining creation.

I believe that, but do you consider that demonstrable?
Of course... I see God's artistic work everywhere... Took a drive today to admire the ice frosted trees shining in the Sun. There's no reason for such diversity and order and beauty in an accidental world.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
For 'how?', you need to study Quantum Mechanics.
And that is better than 'God being eternal' without giving any reason.
Quantum mechanics...Quantum mechanics is a fundamental theory in physics that provides a description of the physical properties of nature at the scale of atoms and subatomic particles.
That deals in the behavior of particles that already exist, not where they originated.
 
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