The bible and gays

[sojourner]

We might be born in his image but it is clear we need salvation and grace to be forgiven of our 'sins'

And born in God's image is who we are. And that includes skin color, sex, and sexual identity.

 

[sojourner]

Since God established laws against homosexuality

I don't find ANY laws in the bible against homosexuality.

I say 'some', you say 'many'; it is still not 'all'. Man's acceptance says nothing about what God will acept.

It does when humanity speaks for God, as through the bible, or as through the church. And then, it has to be taken with a grain of salt until context can be applied. Not even the Jewish Levitican Law is absolute. Why should some imagined "law against homosexuality" be absolute? Because you say so?

That humanity is diverse does not offer conclusive evidence that religion should be diverse.

Look around you! Religion is diverse -- and always has been. there are as many perspectives of God as there are people in the world. the LDS doesn't have a corner on the "what's right for everyone" market.

What you mean by God being very big seems to depend on a human definitions of what God identity is rather then on how God sees Himself and how He chooses to reveal it.

Human perspective is the only perspective we have. Remember: We tried to build a tower to get God's perspective, and it was knocked down.

If God is not diverse in Himself, then there can only be one choice; in which case, each individual must indeed decide what that entails. But, I still maintain that such diverse opinions cannot, by their nature, all be right.

God is diverse in God's Self. If we are the imago dei, and we are diverse, how diverse must God be? What you "believe" is immaterial for anyone other than yourself.

Time will tell

Time has already told. It's called the Constitution.

Being black is not an action; homosexuality is and it is against God's law.

No, homosexuality is an identity, not an action. God has no laws against one's identity.

No. I don't believe I can stop it. I would that I could because I believe it is not in their best interest of their eternal welfare.

IOW: "I wish I had control over everyone's life, because I know what's best for them."

Perhaps it is so ingrained that they cannot be reached, but perhaps there are some that can be.

"Reached" for what purpose? It's been proven: you can't "pray the gay away." It's not a choice.

If I think one of them might have AIDS, no, I won't drink after them. That is only a common sense precaution.

AIDS is only spread through blood to blood contact. This is ludicrous!

I want to reason with them that what they are doing is harmful to their eternal welfare and that it will indeed keep them out of the presence of God.

If you want to reason with them, then gather medical, psychiatric, sociological, and scientific facts and take "belief" out of the equation. But I don't think you'll be left with much of an arsenal, because medical science is on the side of reason -- and on the side of homosexuality being normal and healthy.

 

[sojourner]

The point of that parable was not to dwell on the thieves because they were not the point. The issue was neighborliness which Christ intended to illustrate with those that He did dwell on. I think you are making assumptions about what an Elder or a Stake President, or even myself might do.

The point stands. You see the Samaritan (read: "homosexual") as "not a neighbor." But that's not what Jesus says. Jesus says that the kind outcast is a better neighbor than an unkind religious leader. Thus far, your posts have not been at all neighborly toward the outcast (read: "homosexual").

Indeed! That question will be asked when we both stand before the bar of god.

I'm more interested in the now -- where we live -- giving them bread instead of stones.

I think you are attempting to interpret my motives to support your own position. And it is not what I want them to be, but what God would have them be.

It is what you want them to be, because it is only your "belief" that gives you ANY indication what you *think* "God would have them be." Your thoughts, your belief, your motive.
Take responsibility for your own poor attitude.

Warning a neighbor of impending danger because of something he is doing is love.

Only if the danger is real. Otherwise, your unfounded assumptions about them are tantamount to systemic violence.

 

[JoStories]

I would hope that you would understand that from my perspective, having been to seminary myself, and having studied all of my life, I consider that any theological seminary that teaches a theology contrary to what I believe is handing out invalid degrees. No. I do not read or speak any other language, but then I don't need to. I believe the KJV Bible to be the word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. I also believe the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine & Covenants to be the word of God. That newly minted PhD s are reading original transcripts and coming up with new interpretations is again no concern of mine. Besides, how many of them agree among themselves? How many of them have started a new denomination (to add to the thousands of others) based on their interpretation? It is still, after all is said and done, about interpretation and I believe in the theological interpretation I espouse. No other theological interpretation I have heard of has such a compelling and coherent concept concerning of where we came from, why we are here in mortality and what will happen to us after this life is over (depending on our behavior) than does the theology is espouse.

If what you say here is true, I would ask you why you are here. This is a debate forum, as Immortal has been trying to say to Ben. If you are only interested in your own POV, and do not wish to hear what others think or feel, why be here at all?

 

[JoStories]

Tell me. What do you believe concerning all of those things? Please, what do you believe concerning our origens? Why do you think we are here in mortality? What is your conception of what will happen to each individual after they depart mortality? Is the after life gradated according to the severity of the sin or is there only heaven and hell? I would be interested to see if you can paint a compelling picture of who we are in eternal terms and what our potential is.

One question at a time. My sight is poor and I can only do this a little at a time. Our origens? We climbed out of the ooze and went from there. However, I do believe God sent things in motion. And yes, we evolved from primates, IMO. Here is mortality? I have answered this before. I am Buddhist and believe in reincarnation. We are here for lessons to learn to become enlightened. When we die, we enter the Bardo state and then are reincarnated. About the after life and gradations, I don't believe in sin, heaven or hell so that question has no meaning for me. If you want more than that, you will have to wait as its late in the day and my eyesight is going away fast.

 

[JoStories]

That makes no sense. What does black and white have to do with anything?

His point was that God made some people Black and made some gay. Do you see now?

 

[ether-ore]

Do you happen to recall the thread about insults? Its very hard to be kind to you when you tell me I am or rather that my opinions are absurd. NO opinions here are to be insulted or demeaned by anyone else. You are free to disagree with me but you will find that there are other people, some right here on this board, that agree with me and call people Paulian. And your opinion about Paul is just that, an opinion. And nothing more.

What I do is challenge opinions. If you take offense, then that is on you for "not being tolerant" and "accepting me as I am" And as for your opinion about Paul, that is your opinion and nothing more.

 

[JoStories]

To be honest I view you the same way you seem to view me.

Ben, Immortal has been extremely patient and polite with you. It is you who has been on the defensive. He is merely asking you to state WHY you believe as you do or to explain those things that you say that make no sense. You have the one saying you don't care about other people's views. You need to understand that.

 

[JoStories]

Being black is not an action; homosexuality is and it is against God's law. None of those other things you mentioned are action either, so those are false comparisons. Homosexuality is a sin.

No, being gay is just like being Black. You can believe it is not but that does not equate reality. Being gay is what I was born to be. As well as Native American. Are you willing to tell me being NA is an action?

 

[JoStories]

What I do is challenge opinions. If you take offense, then that is on you for "not being tolerant" and "accepting me as I am" And as for your opinion about Paul, that is your opinion and nothing more.

You called me absurd and that is on you sir. And my opinion of Paul is one held by many theologians. Be it opinion or not it is based on serious study.

 

[Awoon]

And your point is? He asked me so I answered from my own POV

You and Christians like you LOVE Sin. It is all you talk about.

 

[sojourner]

The laws as they exist, are objective as will be discovered on the day of judgment.

No. I'm afraid God's laws have never applied to all humans -- only to the Hebrews.

Both would be sinning, but that wasn't the point of what I said. One cannot continue to sin and expect to be saved. They have to stop it or they cannot be saved.

So... the homosexual has to stop being who God created her/him to be, in order to stop being sin? That makes no real theological sense at all.

 

[sojourner]

It is the simple fact that God says that no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God.

I'm sure that, in the world of Substitutionary Atonement, uncleanliness was taken care of once, for all.

The atonement of Jesus Christ will wash us clean so that we can enter, but only on condition of repentance.

So, that act of "love" was conditional -- contrary to what Paul says about love, which is that it is unconditional.

Christ saves us from sins that we have committed if we repent. He cannot violate His own law and allow us into His Kingdom if we do not repent and keep sinning.

Doesn't sound s if the sacrifice was as efficacious as you imagine it to be...

If that were the case, then there would have been no point in our coming into mortality.

So the whole point of our being mortal is so that many of us won't make it to heaven? Gotcha. You're not making any brownie points for Mormonism here as a loving fellowship of believers. You're more painting a picture of Mormonism as a club that's more concerned with checking IDs at the door than about having compassion on the downtrodden.

He could have then saved us from the start and avoided all of this misery.

So, "life is misery." Translation: <sarcastically> "Thanks, God, for breathing that wretched breath into me. I really love it here. <rolls eyes>" I guess all that balloon juice about "Taste and see that the Lord is good," and "How good and how pleasant it is when brethren dwell in unity" is just there to take up space in the bible? I'm just glad I don't have to sit next to Harry Hardluck and Sally Sobstory in your church every week...

I know it because it is stated in scripture. Matthew 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. If this life is a test (and I believe it is) then what one does during the test is what determines the reward.

He thinks heaven is a reward.

it is on His terms, and His terms are that everyone repent and be baptized... not on what terms you hope it will be.

He thinks there are terms for love.

 

[sojourner]

If what you say here is true, I would ask you why you are here. This is a debate forum, as Immortal has been trying to say to Ben. If you are only interested in your own POV, and do not wish to hear what others think or feel, why be here at all?

To proselytize and pontificate?

 

[sojourner]

We are given agency

We don't have agency where there's no real choice to be made. "Do this or die!" simply isn't in God's lexicon.

 

[ether-ore]

I don't find ANY laws in the bible against homosexuality.

Perhaps you do not want the verses in Leviticus 18:22,,, 20:13 and Romans 1:26,27 to mean what they do mean, but they are there.

It does when humanity speaks for God, as through the bible, or as through the church. And then, it has to be taken with a grain of salt until context can be applied. Not even the Jewish Levitican Law is absolute. Why should some imagined "law against homosexuality" be absolute? Because you say so?

No, but I interpret it to mean so. But I acknowledge my interpretation has not been upheld in a mortal tribunal. We'll have to see about the heavenly tribunal.

Look around you! Religion is diverse -- and always has been. there are as many perspectives of God as there are people in the world. the LDS doesn't have a corner on the "what's right for everyone" market.

I said that what is, is not evidence of what should be. There is diversity, it is just that it shouldn't necessarily be that way. If I didn't believe that LDS has a corner on the market, I wouldn't espouse it.

Human perspective is the only perspective we have. Remember: We tried to build a tower to get God's perspective, and it was knocked down.

The human perspective is all we have if you don't accept the collective testimony of all the prophets which corroborate each other which gives God's perspective.

God is diverse in God's Self. If we are the imago dei, and we are diverse, how diverse must God be? What you "believe" is immaterial for anyone other than yourself.

That makes no sense. Is your identity determined by the diverse opinions of others or do you decide what you identity is and reveal it to others?

Time has already told. It's called the Constitution.

For its application in mortality, yes it has.

No, homosexuality is an identity, not an action. God has no laws against one's identity.

Sorry, I have this tendency to see fire where there is smoke. I assume that if one has that identity, then they are performing the associated action.

IOW: "I wish I had control over everyone's life, because I know what's best for them."

No. I only admit to wishing I could convince them. That is all.

"Reached" for what purpose? It's been proven: you can't "pray the gay away." It's not a choice.

Except that I believe it is and that you can. It only doesn't work if the desire is not there to make it work.

AIDS is only spread through blood to blood contact. This is ludicrous!

Maybe, but I'll still take the precaution thank you.

If you want to reason with them, then gather medical, psychiatric, sociological, and scientific facts and take "belief" out of the equation. But I don't think you'll be left with much of an arsenal, because medical science is on the side of reason -- and on the side of homosexuality being normal and healthy.

I have no doubt.

 

[ether-ore]

If what you say here is true, I would ask you why you are here. This is a debate forum, as Immortal has been trying to say to Ben. If you are only interested in your own POV, and do not wish to hear what others think or feel, why be here at all?

Exactly what do you believe is the point of a debate? It is to pursued the listeners to the debate (and perhaps even the other side) that your point of view is the correct one. There is no other point to it. I'm aware that there more people (according to the numbers) watching the discussions in here than actually participate.

 

[ether-ore]

One question at a time. My sight is poor and I can only do this a little at a time. Our origens? We climbed out of the ooze and went from there. However, I do believe God sent things in motion. And yes, we evolved from primates, IMO. Here is mortality? I have answered this before. I am Buddhist and believe in reincarnation. We are here for lessons to learn to become enlightened. When we die, we enter the Bardo state and then are reincarnated. About the after life and gradations, I don't believe in sin, heaven or hell so that question has no meaning for me. If you want more than that, you will have to wait as its late in the day and my eyesight is going away fast.

I believe God is eternal and that this isn't the first earth He has created and it won't be His last. If that is the case, then it makes little sense for Him to keep re-inventing the wheel each time He creates man. Yes, here is mortality.

 

[ether-ore]

No, being gay is just like being Black. You can believe it is not but that does not equate reality. Being gay is what I was born to be. As well as Native American. Are you willing to tell me being NA is an action?

No. I do not believe being Native American is an action, but neither do I believe that being gay is the same as either.

 

[ether-ore]

No. I'm afraid God's laws have never applied to all humans -- only to the Hebrews.

We will just have to disagree about that.

So... the homosexual has to stop being who God created her/him to be, in order to stop being sin? That makes no real theological sense at all.

It is you that believes that God created homosexuals. I written several times in here why I do not believe that is the case.