The bible and gays

[JoStories]

Jo I already stated many times why I bleieved as I do. People don't like what I say.

No Ben. You have repeatedly been rude to Immortal and Sojourner. Both have been trying to help you see different points of view. You have your friend who is gay and your gay. Do you tell them you hate them for what they are doing? That you think they are damned? Are they Christian? And if they are, do you then tell them that their views are not God's? This is what people are trying to say. And if you hate gays so much I would then assume you hate me. That just makes me sad Ben. Really sad. Its the sort of thing the Randy or JT would say.

 

[JoStories]

I'm not worried about Pete's sake. I'm more concerned with 'some' (one or two) who might be reading and think there is something in what I'm saying. If you do not like what I am saying, you are free to put me on ignore.

Which tells me you are here to proselytize and/or pontificate. That is against forum rules. You have no desire to hear other people's POV. You only wish to forward your own agenda. That is NOT debate. The only agenda you have is to convince that 1 or 2 to see that you are right and they are wrong. How is that listening to the views of others?

 

[Pudding]

A is non-believer.
B-H...etc is believer to different God/religion/beliefs.

B: I believe/know what my God says in my God's holy book is true. I believe/know my interpretation about it is true.

A: Please prove that how your beliefs/knowledge is true.

B: My God's holy book is the evidence, and the prophecy in it which has been prophesied is the evidence. I believe/know it's right.

A: Not good enough, it's self fulfilling prophecy, it's a fallacy.

B: I believe/know i'm right, i [believe in/know] my God, i believe/know it's not self fulfilling prophecy. You don't believe it? Please don't, or else you'll receive bad consequence in your afterlife.

A: I maintain my opinion's position that it's self fulfilling prophecy. Please prove the existence of the bad consequence in the afterlife that'll receive by non-believer.

B: I maintain my beliefs/knowledge's position that it's not self fulfilling prophecy. The bad consequence in the afterlife to non-believer can't be prove objectively but subjectively. The procedure to receive the proof is as follow: trying sincerely believe in my God ---> then my God will enlighten you the proof and knowledge ---> proof successfully obtained. If you fail to obtain the proof, it's because you're [not sincere enough/insincere/misguided/using wrong method/not ready/not open-minded].

A trying to sincerely believe in B's God, but fail to obtain the enlightenment from the God which further fail to obtain the proof.

A: I've already try your method to obtain the proof, but i didn't experience the enlightenment from the God and therefor cannot obtain the proof.

B: It must because you're [not sincere enough/insincere/misguided/using wrong method/not ready/not open-minded]. Please try to adjust your attitude to real sincerelity and avoid being [misguided/using wrong method], make sure you're open-minded and ready for the procedure of obtaining the proof. If you've fulfill the condition that i've mention, then i believe/know it's impossible that you'll fail to obtain the proof.

A: How many times should i invest in this procedure if i keep failing to obtain the proof?

B: You should invest all your life's times in this procedure to obtain the proof, because if you success then you'll know that what my God say is true and therefor you can willingly follow my God and not receive the bad consequence for disbeliefs/disobedience. Or, you can also just have faith in my God that he's the true God and follow my God without the attempt to obtain the proof, in this case you also will not receive the bad consequence for disbeliefs/disobedience.

A: Many other God/religion/beliefs may also have the same claims as your God/religion/beliefs, which one is true?

B: I believe/know only mine is true.

(C,D,E,F,G,H...etc's different God/religion/beliefs have the similar claims as A's God/religion/beliefs)

C: I believe/know only mine is true.
D: I believe/know only mine is true.
E: I believe/know only mine is true.
F: I believe/know only mine is true.
G: I believe/know only mine is true.
H...etc

A: It's so confusing, you all believe/know only yours is true, but i only have one life to try one God/religion/beliefs. Okay, i decide that i just live my life as a good person and not follow any of your God/religion/beliefs.

B-H...etc: No, if you don't follow my God/religion/beliefs, then you'll receive bad consequence in the afterlife. Please consider carefully which God/religion/beliefs to follow or not. I believe/know you should follow my God/religion/beliefs, not to mention you also can receive the good consequence in the afterlife if you do so.

1 ---> B-H...etc preach to A to follow their God/religion/beliefs ---> A can't know which God/religion/beliefs is true and also [can't just believe in any of them to be true without any justified evidence], so A don't follow any of them ---> (go back to 1)

In the opinion of B-H...etc, what they think will happen to A's afterlife:
B-H...etc preach to A to follow their God/religion/beliefs ---> A can't know which God/religion/beliefs is true and also [can't just believe in any of them to be true without any justified evidence], so A don't follow any of them ---> A receive B/C/D/E/F/G/...etc's version of bad consequence in A's afterlife

What'll actually happen to A's afterlife if A don't follow any of B-G...etc's God/religion/beliefs?

B-G...etc: Wait and see who's right in our afterlife, i believe/know only mine is right. But when we're already in our afterlife, it's already too late for the non-believer to change their mind to follow my God/religion/beliefs. So i advise everyone should follow my God/religion/beliefs now, before they when into their afterlife to know it's too late to change their mind.

......

 

[Pudding]

And how many denomination/sect/individual's different version of interpretation can be [found/branch into] from those different God/religion/beliefs of B-H...etc, which those denomination/sect/individual also believe/know only theirs is right but every other's which contradict to theirs is wrong?

 

[BenTheBeliever]

No Ben. You have repeatedly been rude to Immortal and Sojourner. Both have been trying to help you see different points of view. You have your friend who is gay and your gay. Do you tell them you hate them for what they are doing? That you think they are damned? Are they Christian? And if they are, do you then tell them that their views are not God's? This is what people are trying to say. And if you hate gays so much I would then assume you hate me. That just makes me sad Ben. Really sad. Its the sort of thing the Randy or JT would say.

Jo people been rude to me on here as well. I am done with this and done with feeling guilty for having a different opinion then you guys and evening a Christian

 

[Leo613]

Jo people been rude to me on here as well. I am done with this and done with feeling guilty for having a different opinion then you guys and evening a Christian

Are hetero sexuel really gays waiting to come out of the closet

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Are hetero sexuel really gays waiting to come out of the closet

No we are not

 

[Smart_Guy]

Why is the bible homophobic

Does the Bible say something against homosexuals? As far as I know, it says things against homo-sex intercourse.

 

[MARCELLO]

Does the Bible say something against homosexuals? As far as I know, it says things against homo-sex.

But how can you be called a homosexual without homosexual acts? Does it make me homosexual if I wear pink jeans only? or I talk like a girl do?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But how can you be called a homosexual without homosexual acts?

Gee gosh: and how can one be a celibate heterosexual?

 

[sojourner]

If that is what you think, then anything can be construed of mean other than what it means.

That's not quite true. Although it's true that the bible supports multiple interpretations, isn't not true that one can just make it mean "whatever they want to."

Oh well.

No, not "Oh well." Because "Oh well" figuratively yawns at the systemic violence that's perpetrated upon these people through strict adherence to "what I believer is right, is right for everyone" to the exclusion of the feelings, respect, well-being, and very humanity of others. No, I'm afraid that you don't just get to piously and self-righteously slap your fellow human being in the face and walk off with a halo around your head. You're gonna get called on the carpet. Your "Oh well" attitude displays blatant disregard for fellow human beings, and that's patently not OK.

No. and you are conflating different kinds of diversity. Being right for myself isn't my motive.

I didn't know there were "different 'kinds' of diversity." Perhaps you'd be so kind as to enlighten us?

Being right for myself isn't my motive.

Judging by your "Oh well" attitude, you could have fooled me..."

Nothing to add here.

Because you know I'm right.

did your children tell you that you were their father?

There first time my little girl said, "Daddy!"

Or did you identify yourself to them?

Yes, as I said, it's "both/and." It takes a community. We aren't a "bunch of people who happen to believe in God." We're the body of Christ -- a community. What others think and how we treat them matters. The eye doesn't get to say to the hand, "I have no need of you." Which is precisely what your stance does to the homosexual community by labeling them as "sin." IOW: you're going against Jesus' teaching here.

Except that I don't believe that God created people that way.

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is that they are precious human beings -- your sisters and brothers. they need your bread -- not your stones.

I believe we are born into bodies that are predisposed for numerous reasons having to do with the desires and appetites of the physical body, to some form of temptation or other which God allows but does not cause.

Except that an identity isn't "a desire." It's who one is.

There is no unity of diversity between sin and non sin.

Heterosexuality is a "non-sin." Homosexuality is a "non-sin." Unity in diversity.

If I am wrong then there is no such thing as repentance.

If you're wrong, then you're wrong about the nature of repentance as it relates to the salvific process.

I'm not worried about Pete's sake. I'm more concerned with 'some' (one or two) who might be reading and think there is something in what I'm saying.

Worry about this: There is something in what you're saying. It's called, "systemic violence." it's been perpetrated upon people who are different from the majority for millennia. It rears its head in the KKK, in Nazi Germany, in Westward Expansion, and in patriarchy. And also, if you're any indicator, in Mormonism.

If you do not like what I am saying, you are free to put me on ignore.

Ignoring the systemic violence is to be complicit in the systemic violence. I don't aim to be complicit... unlike some.

 

[sojourner]

Oh, I shake hands with them all of the time at church.

How big of you! You're likely to feel really contrite when the Seer and Revelator grows a brain stem and decides that God thinks homosexuals are OK, just as he did with blacks, and here you've been figuratively beating them up all this time.

 

[sojourner]

God honors those types of marriage. No picking

Where does the bible say that "God honors those types of marriages?"

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Where does the bible say that "God honors those types of marriages?"

When he created Adam and Eve common sense 101

 

[sojourner]

Jo people been rude to me on here as well. I am done with this and done with feeling guilty for having a different opinion then you guys and evening a Christian

Your different opinion is forced upon others. I don't care what you believe. I do care about how you act toward others, based on your belief. Don't like homosexuality? Fine! Don't be one! But just because you think it's "wrong," doesn't mean that it's "wrong" for everyone else. And don't broadcast that it's wrong for everyone else. Haven't you ever heard the saying, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything?"

As a Christian, myself, I became really, really bothered when I discovered that friends and family members, whom I loved dearly and knew to be good, Christian people, were gay, and were suddenly "living in sin" and not going to be part of God's love for humanity. I watched a dear friend struggle For. Years. with suicide because he was homosexual. He tried therapy. He tried prayer. He tried all kinds of psychological and theological gymnastics. Nothing helped. He was suicidal because he knew he was gay and there was nothing that could help who he knew himself to be. Trying to be "straight" just made him worse. All the experts told his therapist that he was going to commit suicide in a few months; there was no help for it. That was 30 years ago. I just talked to him on the phone last night. He overcame his fear that who he was as a gay man was sinful.

Watching that go down the way it did, I had to ask myself if clinging to certain positions about righteousness, about sin, about grace, was worth perpetuating such pain -- if publicly pushing those "Christian" agendas was worth killing people over and losing family members over. It's not. God never meant for God's laws to hurt people. And where they do hurt people, I'm fairly certain God doesn't hold us to keeping those laws (Jewish friends, please either corroborate or refute). I'm not homosexual. Frankly, it turns my stomach. I could never see myself erotically loving another man. It's not me; it's not natural for me. BUT... I have to realize that, as much as loving another man turns my stomach, loving a woman turns the stomach of my friend. Loving a woman isn't natural for him. Does he berate me over my heterosexuality? He certainly did when I said I hoped that, one day, he would "get over his illness." That jeopardized our friendship which, when I got over myself, has lasted 35 years.

All this to say that, just because homosexuality isn't right for you, just because you think the bible teaches against, it, does not give you the right or the mandate to "correct" your homosexual sisters and brothers. It doesn't give you the right to make hurtful statements publicly. You see, where our belief about God's laws bumps up against human kindness, human kindness trumps God's laws every time. Do I enjoy seeing two men kissing in public? No, honestly I don't. But they're making more of each other, and that's a good thing, because that's what we're here for: to lift each other up and make each other more than we now are. And we can't make more of others when we're busy making less of others.

 

[Smart_Guy]

But how can you be called a homosexual without homosexual acts? Does it make me homosexual if I wear pink jeans only? or I talk like a girl do?

I'm not grasping the situation myself really. Heterosexuals have interest in a specific kind of sex but some of them don't do it, yet they are still heterosexuals. Heterosexual adultery/fornication is something the Bible forbids yet I don't think the Bible can be called "heterophobic" (if I get the word right).

 

[sojourner]

When he created Adam and Eve common sense 101

To the best of my 30+ years of serious bible study recollection, marriage is never mentioned in the creation myths.

 

[Jumi]

But how can you be called a homosexual without homosexual acts? Does it make me homosexual if I wear pink jeans only? or I talk like a girl do?

You can just be the type that feels attracted to the same sex and falls in love with people of your own sex and want to spend your life with them. No act is needed to be one.

 

[Jumi]

So what do we make of animals that naturally pick same sex animals for courtship and partner with them along with the acts? Do believers think it is God trying to confuse people that it's his will or is nature all wrong?

 

[sojourner]

When he created Adam and Eve common sense 101

"Common sense" tells us that the ancients didn't have a real good grasp of the nature of homosexuality, and that the writings reflect the way they thought the world worked, according to their understanding. Common sense doesn't tell us that one writer's take on creation is factually the way the world is.