The bible and gays

[Jumi]

I'm not grasping the situation myself really. Heterosexuals have interest in a specific kind of sex but some of them don't do it, yet they are still heterosexuals.

Well most Christians don't seem to be campaigning against the act, since there's more heterosexuals who engage in that act. They are only against people who happen to be male and engage in it with other males. If they did campaign against it for us heteros, we would not think them as biased. At least that's how looks like for me.

 

[ether-ore]

No, we're not going to just sweep this under the rug. This is important, because it speaks directly to entitlement that leads to dehumanization. It's not as simple as "agreeing to disagree." God's laws do not apply to those for whom they have no covenantal importance. Because that's what the laws are: instruments of covenant. And the covenants were between God and God's people -- not God and humanity. You can't just usurp other peoples' belief systems like that.

God is Creator. They are created. Therefore, God created them. Your reasons simply aren't good enough, because they're based on an understanding of the texts that is underdeveloped.

I do believe in agency. But I don't think you really do. You're simply giving lip service to it, because your belief system doesn't give people a real choice. Our purpose for being created is to give God someone to love and be in relationship with.

It is not and never will be swept under the rug. But in a debate, there will be disagreements that cannot be resolved. What we disagree about is to whom laws apply. You are saying that laws are restrictive to a group and I am saying that some laws are universal.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Your different opinion is forced upon others. I don't care what you believe. I do care about how you act toward others, based on your belief. Don't like homosexuality? Fine! Don't be one! But just because you think it's "wrong," doesn't mean that it's "wrong" for everyone else. And don't broadcast that it's wrong for everyone else. Haven't you ever heard the saying, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything?"

As a Christian, myself, I became really, really bothered when I discovered that friends and family members, whom I loved dearly and knew to be good, Christian people, were gay, and were suddenly "living in sin" and not going to be part of God's love for humanity. I watched a dear friend struggle For. Years. with suicide because he was homosexual. He tried therapy. He tried prayer. He tried all kinds of psychological and theological gymnastics. Nothing helped. He was suicidal because he knew he was gay and there was nothing that could help who he knew himself to be. Trying to be "straight" just made him worse. All the experts told his therapist that he was going to commit suicide in a few months; there was no help for it. That was 30 years ago. I just talked to him on the phone last night. He overcame his fear that who he was as a gay man was sinful.

Watching that go down the way it did, I had to ask myself if clinging to certain positions about righteousness, about sin, about grace, was worth perpetuating such pain -- if publicly pushing those "Christian" agendas was worth killing people over and losing family members over. It's not. God never meant for God's laws to hurt people. And where they do hurt people, I'm fairly certain God doesn't hold us to keeping those laws (Jewish friends, please either corroborate or refute). I'm not homosexual. Frankly, it turns my stomach. I could never see myself erotically loving another man. It's not me; it's not natural for me. BUT... I have to realize that, as much as loving another man turns my stomach, loving a woman turns the stomach of my friend. Loving a woman isn't natural for him. Does he berate me over my heterosexuality? He certainly did when I said I hoped that, one day, he would "get over his illness." That jeopardized our friendship which, when I got over myself, has lasted 35 years.

All this to say that, just because homosexuality isn't right for you, just because you think the bible teaches against, it, does not give you the right or the mandate to "correct" your homosexual sisters and brothers. It doesn't give you the right to make hurtful statements publicly. You see, where our belief about God's laws bumps up against human kindness, human kindness trumps God's laws every time. Do I enjoy seeing two men kissing in public? No, honestly I don't. But they're making more of each other, and that's a good thing, because that's what we're here for: to lift each other up and make each other more than we now are. And we can't make more of others when we're busy making less of others.

I suggest you read a thread I just created. a very personally thread in which

 

[ether-ore]

You asked me specific questions and then don't remark on any but the one about mortality. And this for you is the point of debate? What of my views of reincarnation and lessons and the Bardo state? See, this is why I asked you why you are here.

I felt I could only speak to what you said about where we came from. You left the rest of your comments undeveloped because you were tired and I took that to mean that you were going to return to those issues later. Besides, I'm not sure how to respond to reincarnation. I only have opinion and not reason to rebut to that. As for learning the lessons of life, I happen to agree with that aspect so there was nothing to comment on. I took "Bardo" state to mean the final resting place after mortality was finally over, which 'a rose by any other name', but it doesn't tell me much conditions there, so again, there was nothing to respond to.

 

[ether-ore]

Which tells me you are here to proselytize and/or pontificate. That is against forum rules. You have no desire to hear other people's POV. You only wish to forward your own agenda. That is NOT debate. The only agenda you have is to convince that 1 or 2 to see that you are right and they are wrong. How is that listening to the views of others?

I see, you don't like my point of view, so you accuse me of not listening to yours. I am listening; I just disagree and am presenting an alternative point of view. That is called debating. Jo, If my point of view offends you, there is an ignore function. Attempting to silence me by getting me banned for violating forum rules (which I am not doing) is a cheap shot.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

I see, you don't like my point of view, so you accuse me of not listening to yours. I am listening; I just disagree and am presenting an alternative point of view. That is called debating. Jo, If my point of view offends you, there is an ignore function. Attempting to silence me by getting me banned for violating forum rules (which I am not doing) is a cheap shot.

I agree

 

[sojourner]

It is not and never will be swept under the rug. But in a debate, there will be disagreements that cannot be resolved. What we disagree about is to whom laws apply. You are saying that laws are restrictive to a group and I am saying that some laws are universal.

Your "universal laws" are harming a lot of human beings.

 

[ether-ore]

That's not quite true. Although it's true that the bible supports multiple interpretations, isn't not true that one can just make it mean "whatever they want to."

No, not "Oh well." Because "Oh well" figuratively yawns at the systemic violence that's perpetrated upon these people through strict adherence to "what I believer is right, is right for everyone" to the exclusion of the feelings, respect, well-being, and very humanity of others. No, I'm afraid that you don't just get to piously and self-righteously slap your fellow human being in the face and walk off with a halo around your head. You're gonna get called on the carpet. Your "Oh well" attitude displays blatant disregard for fellow human beings, and that's patently not OK.

I didn't know there were "different 'kinds' of diversity." Perhaps you'd be so kind as to enlighten us?

Judging by your "Oh well" attitude, you could have fooled me..."

Because you know I'm right.

There first time my little girl said, "Daddy!"

Yes, as I said, it's "both/and." It takes a community. We aren't a "bunch of people who happen to believe in God." We're the body of Christ -- a community. What others think and how we treat them matters. The eye doesn't get to say to the hand, "I have no need of you." Which is precisely what your stance does to the homosexual community by labeling them as "sin." IOW: you're going against Jesus' teaching here.

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is that they are precious human beings -- your sisters and brothers. they need your bread -- not your stones.

Except that an identity isn't "a desire." It's who one is.

Heterosexuality is a "non-sin." Homosexuality is a "non-sin." Unity in diversity.

If you're wrong, then you're wrong about the nature of repentance as it relates to the salvific process.

Worry about this: There is something in what you're saying. It's called, "systemic violence." it's been perpetrated upon people who are different from the majority for millennia. It rears its head in the KKK, in Nazi Germany, in Westward Expansion, and in patriarchy. And also, if you're any indicator, in Mormonism.

Ignoring the systemic violence is to be complicit in the systemic violence. I don't aim to be complicit... unlike some.

I see anger has entered the debate; especially since you are accusing me of being violent toward anyone. I have never been violent toward anyone, nor have I ever advocated violence toward anyone. Telling someone I think what they are doing is a sin is not an act of violence because all the person with whom I am speaking has to do is disregard what I am saying as worthless information to them. Not all humans can be made to think a certain way. It has been said that I am "pontificating" and "proselytizing". I happen to see what you are doing is the same thing by saying that a contrary position to yours cannot be ignored; that unless and until the other party comes to your point of view, they need to be silenced by force... which is violence. I am not attempting to silence you!

 

[ether-ore]

Your "universal laws" are harming a lot of human beings.

Those laws could only cause "harm" (during mortality) if there was the force of government behind them. There isn't. Quite the contrary; you have the force of government on your side. You've won that debate. But, it seems you are not satisfied and will not be satisfied until you have rounded up all decedents and silenced them entirely. So, your comments about the "KKK" and "Nazi Germany" could be applied to you.

 

[ether-ore]

The topic of this particular thread is "The bible and gays". The debate (with that topic in mind) would naturally be around what the Bible has to say, if anything, about homosexuality. There are sides to that issue saying that the Bible declares that homosexuality is a sin, as well as others who do not believe that that is what it says. Those are the two sides of the debate, and it is a legitimate debate. For one side to attempt to silence the other side by getting them banned is really inappropriate.

 

[Smart_Guy]

So what do we make of animals that naturally pick same sex animals for courtship and partner with them along with the acts? Do believers think it is God trying to confuse people that it's his will or is nature all wrong?

I heard of occasional homosexual intercourse in animals, but I'm yet to find long term partnering (I'll search for that). Maybe the occasional ones happen when the animal loses control in heat due to lack of the other sex's presence. I guess this could happen to heterosexual humans too. Also, should partnering exist, it could be a test from God thru animals since animals are mindless and probably don't face judgement for such a thing in the after life.

All of the above are assumptions for now. Please consider them passing thoughts.

Well most Christians don't seem to be campaigning against the act, since it's mostly heterosexuals who engage in that act. They are only against people who happen to be male and engage in it with other males. If they did campaign against it for us heteros, we would not think them as biased. At least that's how looks like for me.

Yes, even some Muslims don't (believe it or not ). My post was exclusively on what the Bible (the scriptures) has to offer (what the topic is about, I believe), not how people tend to it. Religion is religions and people are people, right?

 

[Doug Shaver]

Why is the bible homophobic

As a whole, it's not. Some parts of it are, because the authors of those parts were homophobic.

 

[sojourner]

I see anger has entered the debate; especially since you are accusing me of being violent toward anyone.

You see too dimly. I'm not angry; I'm indignant. Which, given your stance, is to be expected.

I have never been violent toward anyone, nor have I ever advocated violence toward anyone.

The hubris of dividing humanity into "those who are sin," and "those who are righteous," is violence, because, to so divide humanity and attempt to deprive one segment from God's grace, based upon who they are, is dehumanizing, this dehumanization is systemic within our society, and such dehumanization is violence.

Telling someone I think what they are doing is a sin is not an act of violence because all the person with whom I am speaking has to do is disregard what I am saying as worthless information to them.

the problem is, it's Not. Just. You. That message comes at them from all quarters. That's why I refer to the violence as "systemic." Society tells them, "You are worthless because of your 'sin.'" They can't "just ignore it," any more than the blacks who, to this day, continue to demonstrate in Ferguson, MO, because it's all around them, stinging them like a thousand bees all the time. One pesky mosquito can be dismissed as "worthless pain." A million of them swarming you every single moment of every single day puts you in a position where there is no "all you have to do." That "doing" becomes impossible.

Your belief is your business. But when that belief joins those of a million other people, it becomes my business, because those aggregate beliefs are hurting people. It needs to stop. A million voices is no longer "worthless information." It becomes "unmanageable suffering."

Not all humans can be made to think a certain way.

Then stop trying to do that! Why can't you just let people be who they are, instead of trying to "fix" them to be who you want them to be? Huh? Homosexuals are seeking wholeness within loving relationships, just the same as you and I seek wholeness within loving relationships. Why can't you acknowledge that search, instead of obsessing on the means of that search?

It has been said that I am "pontificating" and "proselytizing".

Correct.

I happen to see what you are doing is the same thing by saying that a contrary position to yours cannot be ignored

No, there's a significant difference here. Your position seeks to have all people believe what you believe. My position seeks to allow everyone to hold diverse beliefs equally, without reprisal. The first is pontification. The second seeks justice.

that unless and until the other party comes to your point of view, they need to be silenced by force... which is violence. I am not attempting to silence you!

You misinterpret my point of view. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I'm trying to raise awareness of the harm you're causing with your words. With your words, you're attempting to silence the acceptability of homosexual expression.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As a whole, it's not.

Because, as a whole, the 'bible' is not addressing sexual relationships among same-sex couples, but that fact offers scant solace.

 

[sojourner]

Those laws could only cause "harm" (during mortality) if there was the force of government behind them.

Wrong. Those laws harm others through force of peer derision.

But, it seems you are not satisfied and will not be satisfied until you have rounded up all decedents and silenced them entirely. So, your comments about the "KKK" and "Nazi Germany" could be applied to you.

No, I'm not seeking to silence anyone. I'm seeking to turn the conversation from one of condemnation to one of respect and understanding. You don't want to understand them. All you want to do is change them.

Yes, we do have the government on our side -- and that's a good thing, because now the equal rights of these people to be who they are and to seek life, liberty, and happiness is being protected from bigots, at least on a legal scale. The battle now turns (as has been happening for more than a century now with the black and First Nations communities) to understanding and acceptance of differences. We now seek to give the minority a voice that has, heretofore, been oppressed by the majority.

You see, this is all about power. You're in the majority, and you don't want to give up any of your power. And you do that in subtle ways, not through head-on confrontation, but by intimating that the minority is, somehow, unacceptable to "polite society." Which is fine for you, being a member of "polite society." Your bases are covered simply by being in the majority. It's the outcast that need protection, not the in-crowd. It's the downtrodden that need to be lifted up, not the high-and-mighty. It's the disenfranchised that need to be included, not the club members. That's what this is about. You don't want your little club sullied by "them," so you're fighting against the notion that it's a real good idea to include "them" on their terms. The parameters of what constitutes "polite society" need to change in order to include the ones who have systemically been labeled as "unacceptable as-is." What is "acceptable" needs to be expanded to include more than what falls within the scope of your comfort zone.

 

[john pratt]

Hi
It's quite sad to see people writing and talking about the bible, and take things out of context.
I have children and whether they do good or bad I still feed them, but I don't condone the wrong they do.
I have a question does God hate murderers
Does he hate people who commit adultery
Does God hate people that commit rape.

Why do homosexuals always complain about the bible? We Christians don't waste our time talking about Homosexuals all the time we have better things to do
.
God hates sin and so do most of you , every one of you will judge a murderer or a robber you will judge a rapist.

 

[john pratt]

Early Christians were against homosexuality and other "sins". How they came to be against it I do not know. If one looks at the writings Didache and the letter to the Roman Emperor by Justin Martyr one might see that this seems to be the case.

 

[sojourner]

The topic of this particular thread is "The bible and gays". The debate (with that topic in mind) would naturally be around what the Bible has to say, if anything, about homosexuality. There are sides to that issue saying that the Bible declares that homosexuality is a sin, as well as others who do not believe that that is what it says. Those are the two sides of the debate, and it is a legitimate debate. For one side to attempt to silence the other side by getting them banned is really inappropriate.

Yes, there are sides. But the implication here is, once a side is taken, what is the implication for us as Christians? You've taken a position about what the bible says. Fine. you think it's a sin. But the question for you becomes not, "How can I save everybody else from sinning?" but, "How do I keep from falling into that sin?" Just because you've reached a position of faith doesn't give you the right to broadcast stuff that hurts people. It does give you license to improve your own life -- including wrestling with the implications of differing biblical stances, and how we can learn to live with those differences without hurting each other.

 

[sojourner]

Hi
It's quite sad to see people writing and talking about the bible, and take things out of context.
I have children and whether they do good or bad I still feed them, but I don't condone the wrong they do.
I have a question does God hate murderers
Does he hate people who commit adultery
Does God hate people that commit rape.

Why do homosexuals always complain about the bible? We Christians don't waste our time talking about Homosexuals all the time we have better things to do
.
God hates sin and so do most of you , every one of you will judge a murderer or a robber you will judge a rapist.

What does "sin" have to do with "homosexuality?" It's not a sin. The act isn't a sin, since homosexuals can now be married.

 

[loveendures]

The bible is against just about everything you can think of, it doesn't like anyone having fun in life, it wants to make you sour and sad, it is said that Jesus never laughed, how sad for him.

Have you really read the Bible ? Jesus was a party man, when he attended the wedding at Cana you think he didn't have fun ? Supposedly he made lots of best tasting wine.
Jesus was a joyful person, continually urging his followers to be joyful. He explains to his disciples, "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete" (John 15:11).