The bible and gays

[Norman]

I would suggest listening to the following podcast from "Science vs.". It changed the way I looked at this issue. It has become increasingly clear that homosexuality is genetic, but not due to some magical "gay gene". Our attraction for the opposite or same sex in various aspects of life are controlled by various genes. Homosexuality causes these attractions to occur more so for the same sex rather than the opposite sex. But, listen to the podcast. It is very intriguing.

https://soundcloud.com/https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fscience-vs%2Fthe-gay-gene

Norman: Ok leibowde84, I will listen

 

[Smart_Guy]

Smart_Guy, here is a list of (wild) animals in nature that display homosexual/bisexual behavior in roughly between 8-10% of their population. These are all animals in the wild away from any human intervention. To claim that homosexuality is "unnatural" shows an immense ignorance of what the term "natural" means. Homosexuality exists all over the place "naturally" in the wild. Anyone claiming otherwise is merely dishonest and/or ignorant.

• 4 Some selected species and groups
  • 4.1 Birds
    • 4.1.1 Black swans
    • 4.1.2 Gulls
    • 4.1.3 Ibises
    • 4.1.4 Mallards
    • 4.1.5 Penguins
    • 4.1.6 Vultures
    • 4.1.7 Pigeons
  • 4.2 Mammals
    • 4.2.1 Amazon dolphin
    • 4.2.2 American bison
    • 4.2.3 Bonobo and other apes
    • 4.2.4 Bottlenose dolphins
    • 4.2.5 Elephants
    • 4.2.6 Giraffes
    • 4.2.7 Monkeys
    • 4.2.8 Japanese macaque
    • 4.2.9 Lions
    • 4.2.10 Polecat
    • 4.2.11 Sheep
    • 4.2.12 Spotted hyena
  • 4.3 Others
    • 4.3.1 Lizards
    • 4.3.2 Insects and arachnids
      • 4.3.2.1 Dragonflies
      • 4.3.2.2 Fruit flies
      • 4.3.2.3 Bed bugs

Are you implying I'm dishonest and/or ignorant?

Just kidding

Yes, I searched and found the above on Wikipedia. Does the definition cover same sex intimacy as well? Where I live we do things that others who don't know us well see us could guess we are homosexuals. Holding each others hands, kissing too much and hugging tight happens from time to time here. I always thought humans are naturally bisexual in interest actually. I just think it is not right to follow our desires just because we want to. But does it matter if what I think not right is done by others? Nope, as long as it does not hurt others. I do have gay friends after all that I care about.

Reminder:
Really, I'm just kidding about the first two lines

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: You dare ask ether-ore to not insult you when you did exactly that to me, you are a hypocrite. Let me help you remember.

Post # 207

1. Norman said: ↑

Norman: The only one giving Mormonism a black eye is you sojourner. You are on ignore, bye.

Click to expand...

Ah... the mark of someone with no ability to debate or even live up to their own faith. All too often, we see people of your faith ignoring others when they are faced with true debate. Sojourner is polite, articulate, funny, and always expressed his or her opinion well. I have no problem with you and what you believe. I do, however, lose a great deal of respect when someone has not the ability to live their faith and just shuts down. Sad really.

Norman: You started to attack me here because I ignored sojourner. You have no right to this comment you made "Ah... the mark of someone with no ability to debate" when we have not debated yet.

I think Jo is pointing out that you aren't willing to address ridicule of your beliefs, which is a healthy part of religious debate. No one is under any requirement to respect any religious beliefs. They are, however, required to show respect towards the one holding those beliefs. For example, I'm aloud to say whatever I want about Joseph Smith or Muhammad, as they are merely historical figures deserving of skepticism. But, I can't make fun of you for holding those beliefs. That being said, pointing out the stupidity or unreasonableness of any belief is absolutely fine.

 

[leibowde84]

Are you implying I'm dishonest and/or ignorant?

Just kidding

Yes, I searched and found the above on Wikipedia. Does the definition cover same sex intimacy as well? Where I live we do things that others who don't know us well see us could guess we are homosexuals. Holding each others hands, kissing too much and hugging tight happens from time to time here. I always thought humans are naturally bisexual in interest actually. I just think it is not right to follow our desires just because we want to. But does it matter if what I think not right is done by others? Nope, as long as it does not hurt others. I do have gay friends after all that I care about.

Reminder:
Really, I'm just kidding about the first two lines

Haha. You are the best, Smart_Guy. And, I think you have a very good head on your shoulders about this stuff. You seem to be, at least mentally, challenging the feelings toward homosexuality in your culture. Can't ask for more than that, even if you remain with them. All any of us can ask is genuine consideration and the attempt to re-think traditional views.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I don't think it's an increase. Nothing points to there having been a change. The ducks in the local church pond I was talking about were in the early 90s.

I think we have a different definition of mind here, leading to some confusion. Most animals don't plan long-term, beyond ability to solve multi-step puzzles. Not sure about some smarter ones like bonobos, they seem very humanlike and sometimes surprises me what they can do.

Yes, it happens without human intervention. The ducks in that church pond weren't limited by humans either.

Cool, I had some worries one day chickens would stop breading and I can't eat them any more

 

[Smart_Guy]

Haha. You are the best, Smart_Guy. And, I think you have a very good head on your shoulders about this stuff. You seem to be, at least mentally, challenging the feelings toward homosexuality in your culture. Can't ask for more than that, even if you remain with them. All any of us can ask is genuine consideration and the attempt to re-think traditional views.

Yup, my beliefs do say that God made us different people (emphasis on different) to know each other
It is bad that some people took it the other way around and chose to hate those different than them

Edit:
It is too bad that head over my shoulders is getting bald

 

[Norman]

I think Jo is pointing out that you aren't willing to address ridicule of your beliefs, which is a healthy part of religious debate. No one is under any requirement to respect any religious beliefs. They are, however, required to show respect towards the one holding those beliefs. For example, I'm aloud to say whatever I want about Joseph Smith or Muhammad, as they are merely historical figures deserving of skepticism. But, I can't make fun of you for holding those beliefs. That being said, pointing out the stupidity or unreasonableness of any belief is absolutely fine.

Norman: Hi leibowde84, She became upset when I ignored Sojourner. Her post was an assumption of why I ignored Sojouner. There was nothing factual about her statement to me at all as to why I ignored Sojouner and I do not think it is anyone's business why someone ignored a person. That is my opinion.

 

[sojourner]

Norman: You dare ask ether-ore to not insult you when you did exactly that to me, you are a hypocrite. Let me help you remember.

Post # 207

1. Norman said: ↑

Norman: The only one giving Mormonism a black eye is you sojourner. You are on ignore, bye.

Click to expand...

Ah... the mark of someone with no ability to debate or even live up to their own faith. All too often, we see people of your faith ignoring others when they are faced with true debate. Sojourner is polite, articulate, funny, and always expressed his or her opinion well. I have no problem with you and what you believe. I do, however, lose a great deal of respect when someone has not the ability to live their faith and just shuts down. Sad really.

Norman: You started to attack me here because I ignored sojourner. You have no right to this comment you made "Ah... the mark of someone with no ability to debate" when we have not debated yet.

Hiding behind semantics now.

 

[Norman]

This is anti gay if not homophobic. So what if homophobic was not defined in the bible. What does that prove?

Btw, you're reading other people's accounts of God. Heresay, if you will. Why should I believe this truly came from God?

Norman: I answered the OP exactly as it was asked. As far as why should you believe scriptures truly come from God is something you will need to study, ponder and ask God yourself.

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: I answered the OP exactly as it was asked. As far as why should you believe scriptures truly come from God is something you will need to study, ponder and ask God yourself.

This is a very dangerous way of thinking. If you do in fact have reasoning behind your granting scriptures validity, you should be able to articulate them. If this is not possible, then it says something about your willingness to grant validity to something you have no reason to. In other words, it might show that your faith in scripture is based on taking other's word for it. We should all be able to discuss the validity of scripture objectively, shouldn't we? If not, why not?

 

[Norman]

I don't have a book to quote verses from to use in my debates as you've been doing. I haven't asserted actually what makes a good family outside of asserting what is homophobia and anti gay.

Norman: Hi suncowiam, were you referring to me? By the way, sorry if I seemed rude in my post (s) to you.

 

[Jumi]

Where I live we do things that others who don't know us well see us could guess we are homosexuals. Holding each others hands, kissing too much and hugging tight happens from time to time here.

I have seen and it leads to alot of confusion among some people not at all familiar with your culture.

I always thought humans are naturally bisexual in interest actually. I just think it is not right to follow our desires just because we want to.

Based on myself I'd disagree on that, since I've felt no sexual attraction to my own gender. I might be the odd one out though!

But does it matter if what I think not right is done by others? Nope, as long as it does not hurt others.

This is my thought as well. You could say it's my main guiding thought in life.

 

[Norman]

This is a very dangerous way of thinking. If you do in fact have reasoning behind your granting scriptures validity, you should be able to articulate them. If this is not possible, then it says something about your willingness to grant validity to something you have no reason to. In other words, it might show that your faith in scripture is based on taking other's word for it. We should all be able to discuss the validity of scripture objectively, shouldn't we? If not, why not?

Norman: Why is it dangerous? I simply stated that I cannot prove to anyone that the Bible is true, only God can answer that through prayer. However, people can quote scripture to try and prove someone wrong and not believe in them. Did I address your question (s) or am I off the mark?

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: Why is it dangerous? I simply stated that I cannot prove to anyone that the Bible is true, only God can answer that through prayer. However, people can quote scripture to try and prove someone wrong and not believe in them. Did I address your question (s) or am I off the mark?

I just think it is unreasonable for God to expect anyone who doesn't believe in him to pray to him. Blind or automatic belief seems, to me, to be extremely dangerous. So, in your opinion, how can one gain belief in the validity of scripture by praying to a God that they may or may not believe in? Are you suggesting that atheists are hopeless, or God doesn't want them? Isn't it up to theists, for the benefit of atheists, to provide reasoned arguments backing up their beliefs? I certainly do, and I feel that theists have not been doing a very good job lately. They point to subjective experience, which, in reality, suggests that atheists just aren't good enough, aren't open enough, or have some other kind of issue that is their fault. That is insulting, to say the least, and it actually acts to turn people away from belief. It also opens the door for theists to ridicule, as they can't expect to insult atheists for not being "open enough to God" and not expect retaliation.

Sorry to rant, but I feel very strongly about this.

 

[JoStories]

Hi
It's quite sad to see people writing and talking about the bible, and take things out of context.
I have children and whether they do good or bad I still feed them, but I don't condone the wrong they do.
I have a question does God hate murderers
Does he hate people who commit adultery
Does God hate people that commit rape.

Why do homosexuals always complain about the bible? We Christians don't waste our time talking about Homosexuals all the time we have better things to do
.
God hates sin and so do most of you , every one of you will judge a murderer or a robber you will judge a rapist.

This is a debate forum so that is why we debate these issues. I don;t believe in sin, so I am not one of your 'most'. And for the record, I don't complain about the Bible. I take issue with some interpretations of what is written there. And lastly, I judge no one. Its not my place to judge others.

 

[Norman]

I just think it is unreasonable for God to expect anyone who doesn't believe in him to pray to him. Blind or automatic belief seems, to me, to be extremely dangerous. So, in your opinion, how can one gain belief in the validity of scripture by praying to a God that they may or may not believe in? Are you suggesting that atheists are hopeless, or God doesn't want them? Isn't it up to theists, for the benefit of atheists, to provide reasoned arguments backing up their beliefs? I certainly do, and I feel that theists have not been doing a very good job lately. They point to subjective experience, which, in reality, suggests that atheists just aren't good enough, aren't open enough, or have some other kind of issue that is their fault. That is insulting, to say the least, and it actually acts to turn people away from belief. It also opens the door for theists to ridicule, as they can't expect to insult atheists for not being "open enough to God" and not expect retaliation.

Sorry to rant, but I feel very strongly about this.

Norman: No problem leibowde84, I understand now what you are trying to convey, sorry, I am a bit slow. Good points.

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: Why is it dangerous? I simply stated that I cannot prove to anyone that the Bible is true, only God can answer that through prayer. However, people can quote scripture to try and prove someone wrong and not believe in them. Did I address your question (s) or am I off the mark?

In other words, no one is asking for "proof". But, if you can't explain the reasoning behind your beliefs in the validity of scripture with historical reasoning, you should do more research on the subject and test your faith. The Bible to the best of our current knowledge, for example, was written by unknown men who never met Jesus thousands of years ago, but still claim to speak for God. Doesn't that trouble you? Is it unreasonable to demand reasoning for overcoming this from those who grant the Bible validity?

 

[JoStories]

Yes, there are sides. But the implication here is, once a side is taken, what is the implication for us as Christians? You've taken a position about what the bible says. Fine. you think it's a sin. But the question for you becomes not, "How can I save everybody else from sinning?" but, "How do I keep from falling into that sin?" Just because you've reached a position of faith doesn't give you the right to broadcast stuff that hurts people. It does give you license to improve your own life -- including wrestling with the implications of differing biblical stances, and how we can learn to live with those differences without hurting each other.

This is a beautiful post and I thank you Sojourner. I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to see someone taking a stance that does not portray me as some less than person based on my sexual orientation which is then based on the Bible. I have no issue with anyone who doesn't agree with my lifestyle. I do have an issue with others telling me I am some 'sinner' or that I am less than they are.

 

[JoStories]

I just think it is unreasonable for God to expect anyone who doesn't believe in him to pray to him. Blind or automatic belief seems, to me, to be extremely dangerous. So, in your opinion, how can one gain belief in the validity of scripture by praying to a God that they may or may not believe in? Are you suggesting that atheists are hopeless, or God doesn't want them? Isn't it up to theists, for the benefit of atheists, to provide reasoned arguments backing up their beliefs? I certainly do, and I feel that theists have not been doing a very good job lately. They point to subjective experience, which, in reality, suggests that atheists just aren't good enough, aren't open enough, or have some other kind of issue that is their fault. That is insulting, to say the least, and it actually acts to turn people away from belief. It also opens the door for theists to ridicule, as they can't expect to insult atheists for not being "open enough to God" and not expect retaliation.

Sorry to rant, but I feel very strongly about this.

Leibowde, this was not a rant. It was a beautiful and well spoken post from your heart and one I fully agree with. You, dear friend, get a permanent speaks for me card.
Kiss kiss darling.

 

[leibowde84]

Hi
It's quite sad to see people writing and talking about the bible, and take things out of context.
I have children and whether they do good or bad I still feed them, but I don't condone the wrong they do.
I have a question does God hate murderers
Does he hate people who commit adultery
Does God hate people that commit rape.

Why do homosexuals always complain about the bible? We Christians don't waste our time talking about Homosexuals all the time we have better things to do
.
God hates sin and so do most of you , every one of you will judge a murderer or a robber you will judge a rapist.

Murder, adultery, and rape are bad for society and, thus, we have criminalized/created consequences for these things. On the other hand, no valid argument has been given for why homosexuality is harmful to society or "wrong" as you put it. Not even the writers of the Bible are permitted to say things are wrong without providing sufficient reasoning and evidence for why they are detrimental to society. So, I fail to see why you are surprised.

In short, Christians who adhere to the teachings of the Bible on homosexuality have utterly failed to defend their stance. Hence, we have seen overwhelming support for things like homosexual rights and same-sex marriage.