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The bible and gays

ether-ore

Active Member
Why should their stupidity and actions affect the rest of humanity? A drunk driver hits another person's car. Let's charge them both with a DUI...
I will tell you what my faith teaches me: I am eternally grateful for the choice that Adam and Eve made. For if they had not made it, I wouldn't have recieved this marvelous physical body which gives me the ability to manipulate matter and the ability to enjoy a hug. I believe we all existed as spirit children of God, before we came to this earth. You and I are eternal beings. We came into mortality for the express purpose of gaining these bodies and to learn how to control the temptations to which it is subject.

I believe our Heavenly Father granted us all agency and the ability to make choices. However choices cannot be made without conflicting things to choose from. So God placed the tree of knowledge and also gave a command that they should not eat of it. Thus our Heavenly Father gave them a choice of whether to gain knowledge of good and evil or to remain in a state of innocence. In gaining a knowledge of good and evil we progress both intellectually and in character as we learn to discipline ourselves in our various endeavors. Also, Since God said that if Adam and Eve partook of the tree they would surely die. In other words, I believe that eating of the fruit would cause a change within their bodies making them mortal and therefore subject to death.

I believe it was our glorious mother Eve who first came to the realization that she would not gain in further knowledge unless she partook. I can imagine that living in a perpetual state of innocence and in a paradise, with everything you need right at your fingertips, would get very boring. I think she also realized that without the change in her body, she would not be able fulfill the command to multiply and replenish the earth. I believe from the doctrine of my faith, that eating of that tree not only made them subject to death, it also caused that they pass from a state of innocence and become able to have children. We would not be here except for the choice Adam and Eve made.

By partaking first, Eve came to the realization that she had become dissimilar to Adam. She was now mortal, but he was still in his innocent state of immortality. For, when God creates something, it must remain in that state. The only thing that could change that state would be His children exercising their agency and thus change that state. The choice had to be Adam's. God could not make that choice for Adam, or Eve. Eve realized that without Adam, she could not have children, which meant that he had to become mortal as well. When Eve told Adam what she had done, Adam came to the realization that if he did not partake, we would never be. So he partook and by his partaking, we are here. Otherwise Adam would have remained in his state of innocence forever and we would never have had this opportunity to gain this wonderful physical body. So, I am grateful to our first parents for the choice they made. In essence, they sacrificed eternal innocence so that we could be.

The atonement of Jesus Christ provides the means whereby our Heavenly Father's children can become immortal again, but this time with physical bodies and then as an extra blessing, be able to return to our Father in Heaven depending on the choices we make and through the grace of Jesus Christ. In all of this, God, our Heavenly Father, is interested in our eternal progression. He has given us this opportunity so that we could ourselves grow in understanding and character through the challenges of mortality, but only in making the right choices in spite of those challenges. Our Heavenly father is to be praised for always wanting to bless His children. But it is our choices which determines which eternal blessings we get to enjoy. We can choose to give heed to the temptations of the flesh, or we can choose to be obedient to Jesus Christ and thereby avail ourselves of His atoning sacrifice which not only overcomes mortality, but enables us to return to our Heavenly Father.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
When God created men IMO he never had it planned for adam and steve to fall in love. It was always supposed to be Adam and Eve. But Adam and Eve fell away from God and sin was born. God never wanted us to be like we are now. We humans made that choice. That does not mean that God does not love us. God is a merciful loving God but he is also a holy God and can not let sin into Heaven. That is why Jesus had to come. Only through the sacrifice that Christ had made on the cross for our sins can we truly be right in the father's eyes. Sin leads to death and always will lead to death. The cross leads to eternal life. Which road would you rather take? A road that leads to death and pain or a road that leads to eternal life and happiness? We each have to make that choice.
So it was a choice that I am gay? I think not. I was born this way. And it is NOT a choice that I made.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Once again God never made it Adam and Steve. That is all I am going to say

I can "how do you know?" you until you realize you don't any such thing, and what you are relaying is just unreliable.

Instead, I'll ask this: Are you implying someone has the choice as to whether they are gay or not?
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
I can "how do you know?" you until you realize you don't any such thing, and what you are relaying is just unreliable.

Instead, I'll ask this: Are you implying someone has the choice as to whether they are gay or not?
Word of God made it clear he never made people to be gay. As a Christian I cant and won't rewrite what God says to please people. If God says it is a sin it is just many other sins. We make choices to live in sin.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
So it was a choice that I am gay? I think not. I was born this way. And it is NOT a choice that I made.
Jo, I agree that it was not a choice that you made. My belief is that we are born into this world and into a physical body which we have never before experienced. Our bodies have desires which are both naturally and perhaps even genetically inclined. But that is not the issue. I believe that we existed as the spirit children of God before coming to this earth and that our spirits are not naturally gay and that specific gender (male or female) is the natural condition of each spirit . Our spirits are the offspring of God our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother. God intends that after this life is over, if we have lived worthy of it, we can become as our Heavenly Parents are because we their children and can be heirs of all that They are and all that They have. Two people of the same sex cannot do this for the simple reason that they cannot have offspring.

Each child of God is faced with the challenge of over coming the desires of the flesh and subduing it to the will of the spirit. Each child of God is faced with different challenges and for good or ill, some have a harder time of it than others. The desires of my body have always been towards women but that matters not if is done outside of wedlock. Any sexual activity outside of wedlock between a man and a woman is against God's law, and it doesn't matter which direction the attraction goes. I believe you are a child of God and I give it as my opinion that you can overcome the desires of the flesh. Hope lies in the belief that after this life is over and we are resurrected with immortal bodies, propensities of this nature will no longer exist; that same sex attraction is only a manifestation of a temporary mortal body.


Anyway, that is what I believe and I do not impair your feeling to believe otherwise.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Word of God made it clear he never made people to be gay. As a Christian I cant and won't rewrite what God says to please people. If God says it is a sin it is just many other sins. We make choices to live in sin.

Alright so you're playing it smart and going from a moral perspective.
So, why is sin immoral? I can understand some of it, but at the end of the day what is defined as sin is subjective.
Even if it's God saying it's bad it doesn't make it any less of an opinion, this is second grade stuff.

So, after touching on that, I'll ask: why do we listen to your God?
It's very obvious, unless you are extremely bigoted, that being gay isn't at all bad for you, body or otherwise.
But you still abide by God saying it is bad, why? What happens when you go against the all loving father?

(Btw, I've decided not to throw a bunch of scientific studies at you and tell you to disprove them, it would be counterproductive)
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Word of God made it clear he never made people to be gay. As a Christian I cant and won't rewrite what God says to please people. If God says it is a sin it is just many other sins. We make choices to live in sin.
Did God make people who are mentally ill? Who are deformed in some way or have dealt with cerebral palsy or whatever else? Being gay is as much a part of my physical being as my feet. If having feet is a sin then I guess I will be going to hell.
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
Alright so you're playing it smart and going from a moral perspective.
So, why is sin immoral? I can understand some of it, but at the end of the day what is defined as sin is subjective.
Even if it's God saying it's bad it doesn't make it any less of an opinion, this is second grade stuff.

So, after touching on that, I'll ask: why do we listen to your God?
It's very obvious, unless you are extremely bigoted, that being gay isn't at all bad for you, body or otherwise.
But you still abide by God saying it is bad, why? What happens when you go against the all loving father?

(Btw, I've decided not to throw a bunch of scientific studies at you and tell you to disprove them, it would be counterproductive)


Because Jesus is the truth the way and the life. He is knocking at each of our hearts if we just let him in. I don't care about studies or anything like that. What I care about is what God says. That is a choice I made. I made the choice once again last weekend to regive my life to my Lord again. If that makes me weak or judgmental in the world eyes that is a small price I will gladly pay in order to be right in the eyes of my Lord.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Did God make people who are mentally ill? Who are deformed in some way or have dealt with cerebral palsy or whatever else? Being gay is as much a part of my physical being as my feet. If having feet is a sin then I guess I will be going to hell.

Hey now, let's not forget the children born only to die painfully over the course of days, months, or years.
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
Did God make people who are mentally ill? Who are deformed in some way or have dealt with cerebral palsy or whatever else? Being gay is as much a part of my physical being as my feet. If having feet is a sin then I guess I will be going to hell.


Yes he made all of them and guess what they can be healed. My wife has been healed for 2 years now from her bi polar. After she really gave her life to the Lord she begin to change. She went from hearing and obbession over Demons to now only being on one pill a day. 15 years of struggling with bi polar and God healed her the moment she gave it to him and left it at the cross
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Because Jesus is the truth the way and the life. He is knocking at each of our hearts if we just let him in. I don't care about studies or anything like that. What I care about is what God says. That is a choice I made. I made the choice once again last weekend to regive my life to my Lord again. If that makes me weak or judgmental in the world eyes that is a small price I will gladly pay in order to be right in the eyes of my Lord.

Cool, so how do you know he exists?
Simple question, easy to answer, right?

(turns out I do have to use this tactic :D )
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
God created a perfect world, paradise, without death or disease. Any of those things. Then he created man. He gave us a wondrous but dangerous gift; free will. And soon paradise was lost. It fell to murder, war, greed and pride; terrible things. All of which sprung from the heart of man. He didn't create one of them.

Cause of our free will we now have the choice to follow life or death. Each of us have to make that choice. Sometimes in order to find who you are in Christ you have to kill your old self so that you can be a new creation in Christ.
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
Cool, so how do you know he exists?
Simple question, easy to answer, right?

(turns out I do have to use this tactic :D )


Because one I have Faith. Two I've seen enough in my life to know and three I have felt his peace that surpass any understand that human minds will never be able to understand until you let him in.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Jo, I agree that it was not a choice that you made. My belief is that we are born into this world and into a physical body which we have never before experienced. Our bodies have desires which are both naturally and perhaps even genetically inclined. But that is not the issue. I believe that we existed as the spirit children of God before coming to this earth and that our spirits are not naturally gay and that specific gender (male or female) is the natural condition of each spirit . Our spirits are the offspring of God our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother. God intends that after this life is over, if we have lived worthy of it, we can become as our Heavenly Parents are because we their children and can be heirs of all that They are and all that They have. Two people of the same sex cannot do this for the simple reason that they cannot have offspring.

Each child of God is faced with the challenge of over coming the desires of the flesh and subduing it to the will of the spirit. Each child of God is faced with different challenges and for good or ill, some have a harder time of it than others. The desires of my body have always been towards women but that matters not if is done outside of wedlock. Any sexual activity outside of wedlock between a man and a woman is against God's law, and it doesn't matter which direction the attraction goes. I believe you are a child of God and I give it as my opinion that you can overcome the desires of the flesh. Hope lies in the belief that after this life is over and we are resurrected with immortal bodies, propensities of this nature will no longer exist; that same sex attraction is only a manifestation of a temporary mortal body.


Anyway, that is what I believe and I do not impair your feeling to believe otherwise.
What you speak of here is why I cannot abide the tenets of your faith. You--generic you; spend your life hopping from one foot to the other hoping you are getting it all right on the hope that you will get into this heaven that you believe in. And if you have not done well, you get to roast in hell. I mean no disrespect Either-Ore but for many, including me, this is how we see your faith. I do see the great things that Christ taught, minus the things Paul said of course. But me being gay is as much a part of me as breathing.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
God created a perfect world, paradise, without death or disease. Any of those things. Then he created man. He gave us a wondrous but dangerous gift; free will. And soon paradise was lost. It fell to murder, war, greed and pride; terrible things. All of which sprung from the heart of man. He didn't create one of them.

Cause of our free will we now have the choice to follow life or death. Each of us have to make that choice. Sometimes in order to find who you are in Christ you have to kill your old self so that you can be a new creation in Christ.

Cool... So how do you know any of that.
I already have the answer. You think you know. You have no proof. No valid evidence.
Yet you still just believe it? Interesting.

Because one I have Faith. Two I've seen enough in my life to know and three I have felt his peace that surpass any understand that human minds will never be able to understand until you let him in.

Well, haha.
1. Zero evidence and reliability.
2. to think you know, you mean. You have no evidence so you don't know anything of the sort.
3. How would it be past human level, and how do you know it is past human level?
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
Cool... So how do you know any of that.
I already have the answer. You think you know. You have no proof. No valid evidence.
Yet you still just believe it? Interesting.

Yes I believe. I believe so much I would even be willing to give my life for my Lord. I don't care about evidence. I have Faith and for me that is enough.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
@BenTheBeliever "Yes I believe. I believe so much I would even be willing to give my life for my Lord. I don't care about evidence. I have Faith and for me that is enough."

It's people like you that are so easily exploited by the higher ups in your organization.
How far will you go for your God before you realize the flaws in his "reality"?
Will you kill? Promote violence? Hate others? You're willing to commit suicide if need be.

I wonder if this is how the men of God in the crusades thought as they were slaughtering families.
 

BenTheBeliever

Active Member
@BenTheBeliever "Yes I believe. I believe so much I would even be willing to give my life for my Lord. I don't care about evidence. I have Faith and for me that is enough."

It's people like you that are so easily exploited by the higher ups in your organization.
How far will you go for your God before you realize the flaws in his "reality"?
Will you kill? Promote violence? Hate others? You're willing to commit suicide if need be.

I wonder if this is how the men of God in the crusades thought as they were slaughtering families.


I don't promote violence never have and never will. I don't hate others. I can't agree with sins that God says are sins that includes my own sins and I have a lot of them that I am daily working on. I am what you call a working progress but I got the winning side behind me. I also have no organization. I don't even go to church like I should. Everything I say is from my own walk with the Lord.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
What you speak of here is why I cannot abide the tenets of your faith. You--generic you; spend your life hopping from one foot to the other hoping you are getting it all right on the hope that you will get into this heaven that you believe in. And if you have not done well, you get to roast in hell. I mean no disrespect Either-Ore but for many, including me, this is how we see your faith. I do see the great things that Christ taught, minus the things Paul said of course. But me being gay is as much a part of me as breathing.
While I do think it necessary to discipline myself according to God's law (what you call hopping from one foot to the other) I don't actually believe in the roasting in hell bit. I do believe that unless a person repents, other than being resurrected, the atonement of Jesus Christ cannot be applied to that person and they will have to pay the penalty for their own sins. That paying for one's own sins has been likened to eternal flame, is just that... a simile or a metaphor. But I suspect it is not fun. I guess, based on your response though, you must really think you will be gay for eternity and that condition has nothing to do with the nature (or breathing) of your mortal body. OK.
 
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