The Bible and Homosexuality

[Ceridwen018]

LCMS, quick,

You both have good points here, even if they are of the 'opposing' view. (hehe)

Bottom line, even if homosexuality cannot be scientifically proven as something that one is born with, it is still in a category far above the murder and drugs that you place it with. Why? Because it doesn't hurt anyone. It may be against your bible and religion, but not everyone believes in that (duh). It is something that is difficult for our society to accept, but so were blacks.

There was certainly propaganda floating around about how blacks were particularly dangerous and detrimental to society, but we see the error of those thoughts today. I believe that it will be the same with homosexuals eventually. I have always thought that the parallels between the Civil Rights movement and this seeming homosexual movement were amazing. Gay's have begun to develop their own segregated facilities even.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

quick, pah


I decided I'd do a little but of rsearch myself

"There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative therapy' as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation." American Psychiatric Association fact sheet, 1994-SEP
"...scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works." American Psychological Association, 1994.
"...[reparative therapy] "can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation." American Academy of Pediatrics, 1993.


-The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses in 1973.
-The American Psychological Association followed suit in 1975;
-the National Association of Social Workers in 1977;
-the National Psychoanalytic Association finally followed suit in 1991, stating that homosexuality was not a disorder.



"The most important fact about 'reparative therapy,' also sometimes known as 'conversion' therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.' -"Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel"


Not much there to fix kids... Heres a question for ya? Why in the name of God would anyone choose to be gay (i am not meaning to offend anyone here). With all the bull that people dish out *ahem* and the way people mock and the whole attitude of many people of 'oo you shouldn't have sex with people of the same sex but oh you cant get married either, you should just live your life alone' i do not undestand why someone would choose that. A dear friend of mine was verbally abused in public, when all he did was go out to lunch with some friends. He was told that all the problems our nation has is because of him and 'people like you.' Now you explain to me why someone would make this choice.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

Just another thing I found... Someone who wants to change their sexual orientation because of hte social issues....

The National Association of Social Workers (NASW) adopted a policy statement on Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual issues. It states, in part: "Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful.

Looks like they can't change it even when they MAKE THE CHOICE

 

[Pah]

Just another thing I found... Someone who wants to change their sexual orientation because of hte social issues....

The National Association of Social Workers (NASW) adopted a policy statement on Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual issues. It states, in part: "Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful.

Looks like they can't change it even when they MAKE THE CHOICE

There is a study

Archives of Sexual Behavior
32 (5): 403-417, October 2003
Copyright © 2003 Plenum Publishing Corporation
All rights reserved
Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? 200 Participants Reporting a Change from Homosexual to Heterosexual Orientation

Robert L. Spitzer
Biometrics Research Department, New York State Psychiatric Institute, New York, New York. Department of Psychiatry, Columbia University, New York, New York; [email protected]

Abstract
Position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States state that there is no scientific evidence that a homosexual sexual orientation can be changed by psychotherapy, often referred to as “reparative therapy.” This study tested the hypothesis that some individuals whose sexual orientation is predominantly homosexual can, with some form of reparative therapy, become predominantly heterosexual. The participants were 200 self-selected individuals (143 males, 57 females) who reported at least some minimal change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation that lasted at least 5 years. They were interviewed by telephone, using a structured interview that assessed same sex attraction, fantasy, yearning, and overt homosexual behavior. On all measures, the year prior to the therapy was compared to the year before the interview. The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. Reports of complete change were uncommon. Female participants reported significantly more change than did male participants. Either some gay men and lesbians, following reparative therapy, actually change their predominantly homosexual orientation to a predominantly heterosexual orientation or some gay men and women construct elaborate self-deceptive narratives (or even lie) in which they claim to have changed their sexual orientation, or both. For many reasons, it is concluded that the participants' self-reports were, by-and-large, credible and that few elaborated self-deceptive narratives or lied. Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.

Some change is possible but most become bisexual.

 

[quick]

quick, pah




Not much there to fix kids... Heres a question for ya? Why in the name of God would anyone choose to be gay (i am not meaning to offend anyone here). With all the bull that people dish out *ahem* and the way people mock and the whole attitude of many people of 'oo you shouldn't have sex with people of the same sex but oh you cant get married either, you should just live your life alone' i do not undestand why someone would choose that. A dear friend of mine was verbally abused in public, when all he did was go out to lunch with some friends. He was told that all the problems our nation has is because of him and 'people like you.' Now you explain to me why someone would make this choice.

Why would someone choose to throw themselves on a live hand grenade in combat?; Or choose to follow Christ in the Sudan, where your family is killed and your property confiscated?

I've heard your argument before and it never made any sense to me.

Below is an interesting web link giving testimonies of Christians who were former practicing homosexuals--you know, the people that cannot really exist. Take a look:

http://www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_homosexuality_04.shtml

As far as homosexuality not hurting anyone, all you have to do is look around and you can see the hurt--promiscuity, disease, bizarre lifestyles, lost productivity, lost self-esteem. I suggest you do some research to see what these issues are. However, I do not think this is a strong argument--most people do a number of things that are not good or positive.

The problem with homosexuality is its wrong, according to God. Today, we accept divorce as just another step in life--it is terribly wrong Biblically, and even many Christians just conveniently ignore this. That it has become more acceptable does not make divorce good, right or positive.

 

[Green Gaia]

OK... here's what I don't get... I would never ask or want a heterosexual to change their sexual orientation, so why do some want to force all homosexuals to change theirs?

It seems that a few people have become "ex-gay" but why do they assume that just because they made the "change" that all other homosexuals can and should do the same? Most, if not all, those so called "ex-gay" people were not happy being gay and were miserable for whatever reason (internalize homophobia, social pressure, family issues, etc.). If they are happier now being "ex-gay" then I am happy for them. But they should not assume that all homosexuals are miserable because of their oreintation, nor do we wish to change it.

 

[Green Gaia]

As far as homosexuality not hurting anyone, all you have to do is look around and you can see the hurt--promiscuity, disease, bizarre lifestyles, lost productivity, lost self-esteem.

And heterosexuals never do these things or have these issues, right? You cannot condemn a whole group of people because of the actions of a few.

 

[Pah]

Obviously, some combination of factors cause people to engage in homosexual acts; just as obviously, none of these are outcome determinative.

I've been giving this some thought.

There is no biological determinative factor for anything but male and female - not for sexual identity(masciline or feminine) - not for morpology (external seen gentials breasts fat, muscles etc.) - not for internal forming of reproductive organs, brain and the aural struct - not for orientation. When the only thing certain is male or female, it would be wrong to require something determinate for orientation which occurs well after the other developements are finished. All that can be identified are the factors that go into each stage.

 

[Pah]

Below is an interesting web link giving testimonies of Christians who were former practicing homosexuals--you know, the people that cannot really exist. Take a look:

http://www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_homosexuality_04.shtml

Perhaps you didn't see the study, not just testimonials, that preceded your post

 

[Green Gaia]

http://www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_homosexuality_04.shtml

The American Psychiatric Association position on Reparative Therapy.

Official Statement Concerning Homosexuality and Repartive Therapy from the American Medical Association.

The American Psychological Association position on Repartive Therapy.

Here are three professional medical groups all stating the same thing: by and large reparitve therapy does not work, and may even be harmful. Who should the public believe? These three professional associations or one group that is pushing it's anti-homosexuality agenda for it's own purposes because of their own personal beliefs?

 

[anders]

quick,

You yourself explained it; quoting you: "Why would someone choose to throw themselves on a live hand grenade in combat?; Or choose to follow Christ in the Sudan, where your family is killed and your property confiscated?"

The simple explanation is that the respective "choices" were made from the belief and understanding that this was the only way for them to follow their inclination, their nature and their conscience.

Your description "promiscuity, disease, bizarre lifestyles, lost productivity, lost self-esteem" does not match those gays that I have met. I think that there is no way to find proof for your view.

pah,

Your Armstrong article was just great. My only protest is, however, that I think that "The story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 condemns homosexual rape" is wrong. Lot didn't like the thought of it, of course, but there is no direct reference to it; as the article states, the point for Job, as he himself clearly states, is that he has to protect his male guests, even if that meant the rape of his two daughters. So the story may as well be interpreted as "sacrifice any number of girls, as long as males are saved".

 

[Pah]

http://www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_homosexuality_04.shtml

The American Psychiatric Association position on Reparative Therapy.

This statement was issued in 1998

Official Statement Concerning Homosexuality and Repartive Therapy from the American Medical Association.[/quote]

This statment was a statement of policy undated but around the time of the APA statement

The American Psychological Association position on Repartive Therapy.

This, from a statement issued in 1997.

The Spitzer study is more recent (2003) and shows some change in the degree of orientation but found it was "uncommon" for a complete change. Change does occur but not in the way that would justify the claim of "choice'.

Just to be fair

 

[Green Gaia]

The Spitzer study is more recent (2003) and shows some change in the degree of orientation but found it was "uncommon" for a complete change. Change does occur but not in the way that would justify the claim of "choice'.

Just to be fair

And I'm not disagreeing with that. But it does not imply that all homosexuals can or should change their orientation.

 

[Pah]

pah,

Your Armstrong article was just great. My only protest is, however, that I think that "The story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 condemns homosexual rape" is wrong. Lot didn't like the thought of it, of course, but there is no direct reference to it; as the article states, the point for Job, as he himself clearly states, is that he has to protect his male guests, even if that meant the rape of his two daughters. So the story may as well be interpreted as "sacrifice any number of girls, as long as males are saved".

* Off topic - it is a little strange that the two daughters saved from the destruction of Sodom went on to commit incest with Lot.

I think Armstrong's emphasis was on the rape. for she says "not homosexuality per se". Most scholars consider the inhostality to be a large factor in the destruction of the city.

 

[Pah]

The Spitzer study is more recent (2003) and shows some change in the degree of orientation but found it was "uncommon" for a complete change. Change does occur but not in the way that would justify the claim of "choice'.

Just to be fair

And I'm not disagreeing with that. But it does not imply that all homosexuals can or should change their orientation.

Yes, certainly!!!

It only points to including the factor of nuture in the equation. My thread, Sexual Orientation, in the Off Topic forum points to that as well. The results conclusively show that there is a strong, albeit not succinctly defined, genetic causation.

added:
If choice is eliminated, howerver, and inded it is, than morality has little to do with homosexuuality.

 

[quick]

OK... here's what I don't get... I would never ask or want a heterosexual to change their sexual orientation, so why do some want to force all homosexuals to change theirs?

Because it is Biblically wrong--that is the entire point of this thread, is it not? We lapse into these "practical" discussions, but at the root of this issue is that homsexuality is Biblically wrong.

We seem to be repeating ourselves over and over again. I think we should agree to disagree.

I do want to make one new point. I agree with the Laurence v Texas decision, at least in philosophy, that homosexual acts in private among consenting adults should be legal. In our secular society, there is really no other Constitutional option.

However, when homosexual activists reach into the high and junior high schools with their organizations, when homosexuals cruise the hot areas, when homosexuals use bath houses and bars for liasons, when homosexuals foster male prostitution, etc., I think all of this is wrong and off limits, even in our secular culture. We do not have to, and should not have to, tolerate this kind of public or semi-public activity, either heterosexual or homosexual.

As far as Christians being anti-sex, well, here are a few bits from the Song of Solomon:

Song of Solomon 7


Admiration by the Bridegroom

1
"How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O (1) prince's daughter!
The curves of your hips are like jewels,
The work of the hands of an artist.
2
"Your navel is like a round goblet
Which never lacks mixed wine;
Your belly is like a heap of wheat
Fenced about with lilies.
3
"Your (2) two breasts are like two fawns,
Twins of a gazelle.
4
"Your (3) neck is like a tower of ivory,
Your eyes like the pools in (4) Heshbon
By the gate of Bath-rabbim;
Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon,
Which faces toward Damascus.
5
"Your head crowns you like (5) Carmel,
And the flowing locks of your head are like purple threads;
The king is captivated by your tresses.
6
"How (6) beautiful and how delightful you are,
My love, with all your charms!
7
"Your stature is like a palm tree,
And your breasts are like its clusters.
8
"I said, 'I will climb the palm tree,
I will take hold of its fruit stalks.'
Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine,
And the fragrance of your breath like (7) apples,
9
And your (8) mouth like the best wine!"
"[1] It (9) goes down smoothly for my beloved,
Flowing gently through the lips of those who fall asleep.


The Union of Love

10
"(10) I am my beloved's,
And his (11) desire is for me.
11
"Come, my beloved, let us go out into the country,
Let us spend the night in the villages.
12
"Let us rise early and go to the vineyards;
Let us (12) see whether the vine has budded
And its blossoms have opened,
And whether the pomegranates have bloomed.
There I will give you my love.
13
"The (13) mandrakes have given forth fragrance;
And over our doors are all (14) choice fruits,
Both new and old,
Which I have saved up for you, my beloved.


God invented sex, and it is beautiful and wonderful--in its correct place. When two become one flesh in marriage, it is the closest thing to the intended fellowship we were to have with God prior to Adam's sin. Try it.

 

[Pah]

Because it is Biblically wrong--that is the entire point of this thread, is it not? We lapse into these "practical" discussions, but at the root of this issue is that homsexuality is Biblically wrong.

It has also been show in this thread that the Bible does not say it is wrong. Given that there is disagreement among Christians how can Christianity foreclose the full enjoyment of the rights of every citizen?

The topic is homosexuality and the Bible - the acts of homsexual orientation. Marriage is but one of the acts where homosexuals may express sexuality and love.

 

[quick]

[

It has also been show in this thread that the Bible does not say it is wrong.

Marriage is but one of the acts where homosexuals may express sexuality and love.

I think I have clearly demonstrated your first point is just plain wrong. I know the Bible very, very well, and the tortured sophistry some go through to make black seem white in the Bible is amusing and sad. If anything, the fact that people go to such extremes to discredit the Word is a testament to how powerful the Word truly is and how hated it is by its Satanic enemy.

As to your second point, homoseuxals cannot get married in a Biblical sense--sure, some state may say they can legally marry now, under huge pressure from homosexual activists, but God created marriage in the first three chapters of Genesis, and it did not involve homosexuality, and it cannot change.

As to someone's point that Christians disagree about the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality, I think it is more correct to say that a few sects--primarily older, mainline protestant denominations like the Episcopal, PC (USA) and United Methodists--have succumbed to the pressure to fill their coffers, to get on the good side of the homoseuxal activists and protestors, and to infiltration by unrepentent practicing homosexuals in their ranks. The Bible has not changed, so what a certain sect thinks today, yesterday, or tomorrow isn't the issue. The only divinely inspired Word does not change its spots--nor does God.

Some others have mentioned Lot's daughters and his incest with them. Let me remind you--the Old Testament is filled with awful behavior by mankind, even those who are closest to God. Why? To point to how flawed and fallen we are, and how much we need grace and forgiveness through Christ, as the entire Old Testament, beginning in Genesis, points to Christ. These stories are not there to demonstrate that incest is a good thing, although some incest activist group is probably working up that argument right now between Levitra commercials and condom ads.

Finally, to contest some other spurious point, no real Christian condones licentious heterosexual behavior while condemning the same in homosexuals. All of it offends our Heavenly Father, as we are using his gift in a manner he did not intend and in a manner that cuts mankind off from true fellowship with God.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

the bible basically tells what is right and what is wrong

it is in man's nature to do what is opposite. to try out somethings. like adultry. people are not going to fully be convinced by words.

but concerning homosexuality, i doubt God condemned it. i believe he condemns ALL forms of aductry and minor sex acts, but when it boils down, homosexuals are not doing anything wrong except loving someone they love...

 

[Pah]

pah:
It has also been show in this thread that the Bible does not say it is wrong.

Marriage is but one of the acts where homosexuals may express sexuality and love.

I think I have clearly demonstrated your first point is just plain wrong.

No sir, you have only given us your interpretation.

I know the Bible very, very well, and the tortured sophistry some go through to make black seem white in the Bible is amusing and sad.

Then I'm sure you are familiar with the Biblical verses that was used to justify slavery. Our Southern Churches used the Bible quite well in perpetuating that evil supression of minorities much the same way as homosexuals are being surpressed today.

But I would also hazard a guess that you know the Bible no better than any of the Bishops of the Episcopal Church that voted for and accepted a homosexual Bishop. Even Karen Amrstrong (a former nun) can match your knowledge and her words appeared in this thread. They do not agree with you, sir, and they are every bit as prayerful and Spiriit filled as I imagine you are.

If anything, the fact that people go to such extremes to discredit the Word is a testament to how powerful the Word truly is and how hated it is by its Satanic enemy.

I have always stated in this thread that the disagreement you have is with other Christians. I, personally, am neither here or there regarding Biblical authority.

My authority, and yours too if you are American, is the Constitution which has no mention of God or his Word. This is the actual arena that the decision will be made to acknowledge the full rights of homosexuals (and the transgendered where they are also given second-class citizenship).

As to your second point, homoseuxals cannot get married in a Biblical sense--sure, some state may say they can legally marry now, under huge pressure from homosexual activists, but God created marriage in the first three chapters of Genesis, and it did not involve homosexuality, and it cannot change.

I am not aware of Genesis winning any cases in the Supreme Court nor am I aware of any state that quotes Genesus in the state laws that prescribe marriage. It is a secular, state function not beholden to Genesis.

The pressure that was excerted is from the law - from the 10's of cases over the past 100 years that provided precedent to the decision of the Massachuesttes Supreme Court. The pressure for a Constitutional admendment will not change the status of those being lawfully married today. Only death or divorce will end the homosexual marriage.

As to someone's point that Christians disagree about the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality, I think it is more correct to say that a few sects--primarily older, mainline protestant denominations like the Episcopal, PC (USA) and United Methodists--have succumbed to the pressure to fill their coffers, to get on the good side of the homoseuxal activists and protestors, and to infiltration by unrepentent practicing homosexuals in their ranks. The Bible has not changed, so what a certain sect thinks today, yesterday, or tomorrow isn't the issue. The only divinely inspired Word does not change its spots--nor does God.

Be careful. You may be mocking the Holy Spiriit.

Some others have mentioned Lot's daughters and his incest with them. Let me remind you--the Old Testament is filled with awful behavior by mankind, even those who are closest to God. Why? To point to how flawed and fallen we are, and how much we need grace and forgiveness through Christ, as the entire Old Testament, beginning in Genesis, points to Christ. These stories are not there to demonstrate that incest is a good thing, although some incest activist group is probably working up that argument right now between Levitra commercials and condom ads.

We are going astray from the thread but I will answer you. Lot and his daughters were not condemed but were,in fact, rewarded with a important Biblical lineage.

Finally, to contest some other spurious point, no real Christian condones licentious heterosexual behavior while condemning the same in homosexuals. All of it offends our Heavenly Father, as we are using his gift in a manner he did not intend and in a manner that cuts mankind off from true fellowship with God.

That has been understood and our discussion points were given with just that in mind - there should be no focus - no additional weight given to homosexuality. Lust, more specifically, the abuse of lust, is what is being read from the Bible by those you would accuse of being wrong.