The Bible and the Zodiac

[First Baseman]

Ingledsva, I have no interest in your mere opinions. Are you God? Do you claim to speak for Him?

If you aren't God and you don't speak for Him you have no Earthly idea how creation came about because you weren't there when it happened.

I prefer to hear the Master's voice concerning all things to yours.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, I have no interest in your mere opinions. Are you God? Do you claim to speak for Him?

If you aren't God and you don't speak for Him you have no Earthly idea how creation came about because you weren't there when it happened.

I prefer to hear the Master's voice concerning all things to yours.

Which is ridiculous as we know the earth is older then the Bible says it is.

We also know people have been around longer then it claims.

We know Jonah could not have survived for three days - under water - in the stomach of a giant fish.

We also know the earth isn't a scribed flat pancake shape, - with the heavens a tent above it, - as the Bible says it is.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chug) of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Chug = a flat scribed circle = pancake shape.

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[GoodbyeDave]

Rather Satan has well convinced you of things that you don't and can't possibly understand. To think that anyone would take anything more seriously than Job's testimony is actually quite absurd.

To quote one of your earlier posts,

Prove it. Beyond doubt.

 

[First Baseman]

Which is ridiculous as we know the earth is older then the Bible says it is.

We also know people have been around longer then it claims.

We know Jonah could not have survived for three days - under water - in the stomach of a giant fish.

We also know the earth isn't a scribed flat pancake shape, - with the heavens a tent above it, - as the Bible says it is.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chug) of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Chug = a flat scribed circle = pancake shape.

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You know nothing but what you have been taught and have chosen to believe. End of story.

 

[First Baseman]

To quote one of your earlier posts,

Scientifically? Can't.

But scientists can't prove their science, either. That was my point.

 

[Ingledsva]

You know nothing but what you have been taught and have chosen to believe. End of story.

Actually I'm working with facts.

You are the one that "knows nothing but what you have been taught and have chosen to believe," - even though much of it is ridiculous and against the most basic science.

The verse I quoted is in the Bible and uses CHUG, - which means the Bible says the earth is a scribed flat pancake shape. Would you like to attempt to explain how the Bible is right on this earth description?

Or are you just going to continue to cover your ears and eyes and chant, - it ain't so cause my Bible is the inerrant word of God ?

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[Ingledsva]

Scientifically? Can't.

But scientists can't prove their science, either. That was my point.

AGAIN, - tell us how the Bible is correct in it's earth is a scribed flat pancake shape?

Tell us how the Bible is correct in it's animals that speak, - snakes for instance, that don't have vocal cords?

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[Nefelie]

Frankly, I don't want quotes from a lot of modern writers.

Apparently you didn't notice this quote:

<<…Many ancient astrologers, including Ibn Ezra [Arabic astrologer], recognised eagle symbolism as valid to this sign, since the biblical prophet Ezekiel described a vision, believed to be drawn from Babylonian astrology and representative of the ‘fixed cross of matter’…>>
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...on-the-eagle-and-the.html#KjjcgjTQUuyoZ5Gk.99​

Similarly, I'd like a little more evidence of any Israelite interest in astrology

Rabbi Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra, was Jewish, born in an Arab country (at the time). You would have known that if you just googled "Ibn Ezra", since I mentioned him. You know, you have to do some research yourself too and do not expect everything on a silver plater!
As for more references, I hope you understand that there are books about all this. The internet is a cheap and quick access to the basics, but if you really want to go in deep about something, you need to READ BOOKS.

And BTW, If you are too bored to read even the fragments that we offer (let alone the whole article at the link), then you are really not in any position to debate. You are just arguing for the sake of argument and basicly trolling the thread.

...And that goes for you too, Quagmire.
.

 

[Nefelie]

The Bible itself starts with creation and that predates your sun worshippers

The Book of Genesis is considered to be written sometime around the 6th century BC.

Moses is much older than that (considered to have lived sometime during the mid 13th century BC) and, through his story, we know for a fact that the Egyptian civilization with it’s Solar Religion was already thriving.

According to the timeline of Jewish and Christian dating, Biblical Creation is considered sometime around 6000 and 4000 BC… Which is ridiculous, since we know that mankind alone is WAY older than that. At this time, we have the Bronze Age.

I’ve heard people claim that by “creation” we actually mean the origins of the Jewish religion. That’s fine by me.

If we accept this claim, what you call “sun worshippers” predate Judaism by… at least 4000 years, during the Neolithic Age! Oops…

The worldwide oldest Temple known so far, the Göbekli Tepe, is dated sometime in the 10th millennium BC (Neolithic Age). At that time, Solar religion has already made an appearance.

Oh, the irony in all this? The first clear and beyond any doubt Solar God, was Shamash, of the Mesopotamian religion, dated … [wait for it] … together with the hypothetical Biblical Creation!

...hmmm...

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[GoodbyeDave]

Rabbi Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra, was Jewish, born in an Arab country (at the time). You would have known that if you just googled "Ibn Ezra", since I mentioned him. You know, you have to do some research yourself too and do not expect everything on a silver plater! As for more references, I hope you understand that there are books about all this. The internet is a cheap and quick access to the basics, but if you really want to go in deep about something, you need to READ BOOKS. And BTW, If you are too bored to read even the fragments that we offer (let alone the whole article at the link), then you are really not in any position to debate. You are just arguing for the sake of argument and basicly trolling the thread.

I was talking about ancient Israel, not the Middle Ages.

I don't need to search for Abraham ibn Ezra: I've read some of his books (The Beginning of Wisdom and The Book of Wisdom) and a biography. I know my astrological history: my writings on the subject have appeared in the Astrological Journal, Astrology Quarterly, and Traditional Astrologer. I know the literature: I have a shelf-full of ancient and medieval texts, and access to a major academic library. If I criticise, it's because I approach the topic from a scholar's point of view, rather than that of a New Ager.

But since a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse, I'll leave you in peace!

 

[Nefelie]

I was talking about ancient Israel, not the Middle Ages. […] If I criticise, it's because I approach the topic from a scholar's point of view, rather than that of a New Ager.

How can you mention a Middle Ages’ opinion to a New Age point of view? Can’t you see that it’s an oxymoron?

Also, it’s really funny that you both (you and Quagmire) prefer to focus all your time and energy to only one little reference, rather than comment on the many other examples we have given and continue giving.

Why is that?

Is it maybe because this Scorpio-Eagle thing is the only kinda “loose end” from your point of view?

Or maybe is it because the other examples can not possibly be debated?

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[Quagmire]

Apparently you didn't notice this quote:

<<…Many ancient astrologers, including Ibn Ezra [Arabic astrologer], recognised eagle symbolism as valid to this sign, since the biblical prophet Ezekiel described a vision, believed to be drawn from Babylonian astrology and representative of the ‘fixed cross of matter’…>>
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...on-the-eagle-and-the.html#KjjcgjTQUuyoZ5Gk.99​

That article doesn't prove anything other than that other people are making the same claim you're making. I could probably find just as many articles saying that Elvis was spotted at Wallmart last weekend.

All you've given is a name, so basically you want people to google "Ibn Ezra [Arabic astrologer]" and read through EVERYTHING on the internet that has anything to do with him in search of some one trivial detail that may or may not exist.

Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

IMO, that fact that YOU can't provide anything specific from a reliable source demonstrating (not just claiming) your point tells me that you haven't been able to find anything either, or that you haven't even tried. You heard it, it meshed with what you already believed, so you decided to accept it.​

And btw: I actually did read through a few of the sites discussing Ibn Ezra, even googled "Ibn Ezra Scorpio + eagle" . Guess what? Nothing came up. Want to know why? Well my guess is that it's because nothing exists, other than an internet rumor that's become popular in some circles.

Rabbi Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra, was Jewish, born in an Arab country (at the time). You would have known that if you just googled "Ibn Ezra", since I mentioned him. You know, you have to do some research yourself too and do not expect everything on a silver plater!

I'm not asking for anything on a silver platter, just don't want to have to dig through a lot of crackpot nonsense in search of something that may or may not be there. You're asking people to do your work for you.

As for more references, I hope you understand that there are books about all this. The internet is a cheap and quick access to the basics, but if you really want to go in deep about something, you need to READ BOOKS.

And you need to be a little more selective about the books you read.

And BTW, If you are too bored to read even the fragments that we offer (let alone the whole article at the link), then you are really not in any position to debate. You are just arguing for the sake of argument and basicly trolling the thread.

...And that goes for you too, Quagmire.
.

And you should probably make some attempt to understand what the words "research" and "debate" mean before you go lecturing other people about how to go about theirs.

 

[Quagmire]

How can you mention a Middle Ages’ opinion to a New Age point of view? Can’t you see that it’s an oxymoron?

Also, it’s really funny that you both (you and Quagmire) prefer to focus all your time and energy to only one little reference, rather than comment on the many other examples we have given and continue giving.

Why is that?

Is it maybe because this Scorpio-Eagle thing is the only kinda “loose end” from your point of view?

It's because when I ask a question I like to get a straight answer.

 

[Ingledsva]

Similarly, I'd like a little more evidence of any Israelite interest in astrology

Did you miss the link to those pictures of ancient Hebrew Temple floors showing YHVH in his Solar Chariot surrounded by the zodiac?

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...astrology-in-the-gospels.187552/#post-4782864

It was obviously in early Jewish Kabbalah.

Astrology was called hokmat ha-nissayon, (the wisdom of prognostication.)

Astronomy was called hokmat ha-hizzayon (the wisdom of star-seeing.)

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[Nefelie]

And btw: I actually did read through a few of the sites discussing Ibn Ezra, even googled "Ibn Ezra Scorpio + eagle" . Guess what? Nothing came up

That’s really weird, because I did that too. And guess what: many things came up!

I found 2 of them really interesting:

1) From the book “Horoscopes and Public Spheres: Essays on the History of Astrology”, page 150 (presented to the link) it says that Ibn Ezra in his commentary of Num 2:2 (Weizer 1976, 115) associates the eagle with the scorpio, through the tribe of Dan. https://books.google.gr/books?id=Vp...AD#v=onepage&q=Ibn Ezra Scorpio eagle&f=false

2) THIS one is really good: The Mazzaroth (Zodiac) By Rabbi Dr. Hillel ben David (Greg Killian) http://www.betemunah.org/mazaroth.html
The guy is a RABBI and connects (again) the tribe of Dan, who is mentioned as an eagle in the OT, with the Scorpio and of course with one of the 4 creatures around god in Ezekiel.
Just scroll down around the middle of the page to see it (I can’t copy it because it is a table) or just search in the page for “eagle” and it will take you there. Or is that too much for you?

…And BTW, how can you lecture me about research when even Google is too much for you to handle…?

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[Ingledsva]

Thought I would throw this in.

'Dan's position in the journey was on the north of the Tabernacle, with Asher and Naphtali. The standard of the tribe was of white and red, and the crest upon it, an eagle, the great foe to serpents, which had been chosen by the leader instead of a serpent, because Jacob had compared Dan to a serpent. Ahiezer substituted the eagle, the destroyer of serpents, as he shrank from carrying an adder upon his flag. It may prove worthwhile to consider the possible connection to the tribe of Dan whenever an eagle is used as the symbol of subsequent leaders or nations.' " Unger's Bible Encyclopedia - or Unger's Bible Dictionary

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[Quagmire]

That’s really weird, because I did that too. And guess what: many things came up!

Yup, lots of stuff came up. I meant nothing came up that actually supports your claim.

I found 2 of them really interesting:

1) From the book “Horoscopes and Public Spheres: Essays on the History of Astrology”, page 150 (presented to the link) it says that Ibn Ezra in his commentary of Num 2:2 (Weizer 1976, 115) associates the eagle with the scorpio, through the tribe of Dan. https://books.google.gr/books?

Do you really think that's what that article is saying? Here's what it actually says:

Absolutely nothing there to indicate that Ibn Ezra made the association between Scorpio and the eagle. The parenthetical notes belong to the essays author. It's his association, not Ibn Ezra's, so it proves nothing.

2) THIS one is really good: The Mazzaroth (Zodiac) By Rabbi Dr. Hillel ben David (Greg Killian)

http://www.betemunah.org/mazaroth.html
The guy is a RABBI and connects (again) the tribe of Dan, who is mentioned as an eagle in the OT, with the Scorpio and of course with one of the 4 creatures around god in Ezekiel.

Again, this a is a modern scholar making that association. How and in what way does this demonstrate that the ancients made the same association?

Just scroll down around the middle of the page to see it (I can’t copy it because it is a table) or just search in the page for “eagle” and it will take you there. Or is that too much for you?

…And BTW, how can you lecture me about research when even Google is too much for you to handle…?

.

Me and Google get along just fine. I think the fact that I'm actually capable of understanding what I read is what's handicapping me in this situation.

Anyway, I've had enough tantrums and false leads for one thread, so I'm done here.

Feel free to post whatever self-consoling rationalizations you need to in the space below.

 

[Nefelie]

Feel free to post whatever self-consoling rationalizations you need to in the space below.

How about: it’s time we agree that we disagree?

This conversation is pointless and I still don’t like your attitude.

If there is anything else in the other examples presented that you like to comment on, besides the Scorpio-Eagle connection, I’m willing to talk about it.

…Oh wait! There is nothing other than that! Your whole disagreement about Astrology/Astronomy in the Bible, stands ONLY to that Scorpio-Eagle connection, doesn’t it…?

OK, bye-bye then from this conversation. Take care

 

[Nefelie]

Here is another connection:

The betrayal of Judas

In ancient Egypt, the Scorpio constellation was associated with the mythological scorpion that killed Horus, and the one that killed Osiris. In ancient Greece it was associated with the scorpion that was sent to kill Orion and finally killed eachother. Horus, Osiris and Orion are essentially the same person and are all connected with the Sun. Orion was later associated with Christ.

In the story of Jesus, Scorpio can be connected with Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus with a kiss [Mt. 26: 48-50, Mk 14: 43-50, Lk 22: 47-53, Jn 18: 3-12].

Much has been said and written about this kiss. The main reason is the absurdity of it’s existence. Jesus was a public person. Everybody knew him, especially in Jerusalem. There was a large crowd greeting him [Mt. 21: 8] and he was every day in the Temple teaching [Mt. 26:55].

So, why this kiss for "recognition" that Judas gave to a person so well known throughout the city?

Simple: it can not be explained literally, only allegorically: the kiss of Judas is the sting of Scorpio which "condemned to death" the Sun-Christ.

 

[Sister Cyber]

So after the birth in the manger we skip adolescents and where do we find Jesus, or the Sun? In the next zodiac house after passing through the manger of Capricorn and Sagittarius we find Aquarius the water bearer or "John who baptizes with water".

Actually, you may want to forget all you thought you learned and recalculate all you think you knew, because there are 13 Zodiac signs in Astrology. After Scorpio comes Ophiuchus, after which comes Sagittarius.

All these years I was a proud Sagittarius, until I found out I'm an Ophiuchus, so now I'm a proud Ophiuchus.