The Bible declares that Jesus is God

[kjw47]

So this is your rebuttal against my argument which also utilized James White's 32 Scripture references demonstrating Christ as YHWH? Debate interaction is something that you need to study in order to be taken seriously and if you want to be regarded as a rational opponent. If someone does not directly respond to their opponents proposition presented in debate but runs down rabbit trails or other non-responses they are simply considered absurd. And there has been virtually no direct responses attempting to refute the Scriptural and historical evidence or syllogisms that the Bible Declares Jesus is God.

YHVH was in heaven while Jesus was on earth--Lords prayer--Our Father-Who art in heaven--hallowed be thy name= YHVH--no other name existing will fit here--YHVH is the only true living God. Jesus' God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12

 

[kjw47]

I'm totally lost on how you draw parallels between your Organization and Noah's arc.

Your Organization has a history of ever changing truths. Can you imagine what would have happened if God asked your Governing Board to build an arc?

God: What are you doing?

GB: We're building a shark, just like you asked.

God: I asked your Organization to build an arc!

GB: New light..we're building a tarp!

God: Tarp? Who told you that?? I said arc!

GB: Forgive us Lord, we are only fallible humans.

God: You're forgiven... Now if you can kindly get started...

GB: Yes God, but we will need a boat to fish for carp.

God: Look, I need you to listen carefully. Build an arc...A-R-C!!

GB: New truth! The light get's brighter!! We are building an ARCH!!!

At this Jehovah send down a mighty lightening bolt, which narrowly misses the GB.

GB: Flashes of light! We are building an Arc!

God: Yes, FINALLY! Build an ARC, out of gopher wood, just like I told you...wait...why are you collecting gophers?

GB: We will build an arc of gophers so that we may tack toward more truth. We just have one more question...What did you say the gophers would do?

GOD: Forget it guys...I'm awarding the contract to Noah and his family. I think they'll do a much better job.
​

In all seriousness KJW, I think your Watchtower's history of "ever changing truths" makes it extremely unlikely your Organization could ever construct an arc. You can continually place your faith in an Organization, but as a Christian, I place mine in Jesus, for which there are no "substitutes".

It has a history of undoing 1750 years of error teachings that got in to translating by Catholicism--this is Fact. There is a lot of proof. They only had error filled translations to use the first 80 years--they made errors themselves--But all have seen the correction. It took many years to undo all that was wrong--by many men--studying-- different bibles and older writings, history, language, whatever they could find. By making correction, in front of all the hearts that stand against them, have proved 100% --truth is what they want. Someone had to make correction here in these last days or this couldn't be truth-Daniel 12:4) Truth is here abundantly.

 

[kjw47]

As I have repeatedly tried to draw @kjw47 into a more logical debate forum where certain procedures are followed that elevate the interaction of the opponents to a more formal debate setting. May I also encourage you to that level. I can't think of one person, who opposes the Deity of Christ, that went to the Biblical texts, Patristic evidence, or the syllogisms that I presented that interacted directly with that evidence that supported my thesis: The Bible declares that Jesus is God. Oh, all offered their feelings and opinions and even tried to support their unbelief by going to other texts and secular encyclopedias and dictionaries (which I have occasionally used) but would not or could not engage or refute or invalidate my texts, syllogisms or historical evidence. They simply turned away to rabbit trails and offered no direct, relevant, contrary exposition of the evidence. Their presupposition (of the rejection of the Deity of Christ as affirmed in Scripture) was so strong that they couldn't lay aside their bias and focus specifically on my propositions and attempt to refute them. We all, on both sides, have our foundational beliefs. We all, also, have our ultimate authority. For the Christian it is the Holy Scriptures because they are theopneustos (God breathed).

Regarding the Holy Scriptures the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith states:

Chapter 1 - The Holy Scriptures
1. The Holy Scriptures are the only sufficient, certain, and infallible standard of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.1 The light of nature and the works of creation and providence so clearly demonstrate the goodness, wisdom, and power of God that people are left without excuse; however, these demonstrations are not sufficient to give the knowledge of God and his will that is necessary for salvation.2 Therefore, the Lord was pleased at different times and in various ways to reveal himself and to declare his will to his church.3 To preserve and propagate the truth better and to establish and comfort the church with greater certainty against the corruption of the flesh and the malice of Satan and the world, the Lord put this revelation completely in writing. Therefore, the Holy Scriptures are absolutely necessary, because God’s former ways of revealing his will to his people have now ceased.4

12 Timothy 3:15–17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20. 2Romans 1:19–21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalm 19:1–3. 3Hebrews 1:1. 4Proverbs 22:19–21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19, 20.

2. The Holy Scriptures, or the Word of God written, consist of all the books of the Old and New Testaments. These are:

THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.

THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

All of these are given by the inspiration of God to be the standard of faith and life.5

5 2 Timothy 3:16. (All Scripture is [h]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Footnotes: h 2 Timothy 3:16 Lit God-breathed mine)

3. The books commonly called the Apocrypha were not given by divine inspiration and so are not part of the canon or standard of the Scriptures. Therefore, they have no authority for the church of God and are not to be recognized or used in any way different from other human writings. 6

6 Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2.

4. The authority of the Holy Scriptures obligates belief in them. This authority does not depend on the testimony of any person or church but on God the author alone, who is truth itself. Therefore, the Scriptures are to be received because they are the Word of God.7

7 2 Peter 1:19–21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9.

5. The testimony of the church of God may stir and persuade us to adopt a high and reverent respect for the Holy Scriptures. Moreover, the heavenliness of the contents, the power of the system of truth, the majesty of the style, the harmony of all the parts, the central focus on giving all glory to God, the full revelation of the only way of salvation, and many other incomparable qualities and complete perfections, all provide abundant evidence that the Scriptures are the Word of God. Even so, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority of the Scriptures comes from the internal work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.8

8 John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10–12; 1 John 2:20, 27.

6. The whole counsel of God concerning everything essential for his own glory and man’s salvation, faith, and life is either explicitly stated or by necessary inference contained in the Holy Scriptures. Nothing is ever to be added to the Scriptures, either by new revelation of the Spirit or by human traditions.9
Nevertheless, we acknowledge that the inward illumination of the Spirit of God is necessary for a saving understanding of what is revealed in the Word.10 We recognize that some circumstances concerning the worship of God and government of the church are common to human actions and organizations and are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian wisdom, following the general rules of the Word, which must always be observed.11

9 Timothy 3:15–17; Galatians 1:8,9. 10 John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9–12. 11 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26, 40.

7. Some things in Scripture are clearer than others, and some people understand the teachings more clearly than others.12 However, the things that must be known, believed, and obeyed for salvation are so clearly set forth and explained in one part of Scripture or another that both the educated and uneducated may achieve a sufficient understanding of them by properly using ordinary measures.13

12 2 Peter 3:16. 13 Psalm 19:7; Psalm 119:130.

8. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the native language of the ancient people of God.14 The New Testament was written in Greek, which at the time it was written was most widely known to the nations. These Testaments were inspired directly by God and by his unique care and providence were kept pure down through the ages. They are therefore true and authoritative a, so that in all religious controversies the church must make their ultimate appeal to them.15 All God’s people have a right to and a claim on the Scriptures and are commanded in the fear of God to read16 and search them.17 Not all of God’s people know these original languages, so the Scriptures are to be translated into the common language of every nation to which they come.18 In this way the Word of God may dwell richly in all, so that they may worship him in an acceptable manner and through patience and the comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.19

a authentical
14 Romans 3:2. 15 Isaiah 8:20. 16 Acts 15:15. 17 John 5:39. 181 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28. 19 Colossians 3:16.

9. The infallible rule for interpreting Scripture is the Scripture itself. Therefore, when there is a question about the true and full meaning c of any part of Scripture (and each passage has only one meaning, not many), it must be understood in light of other passages that speak more clearly.20

c sense
20 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16.

10. The supreme judge for deciding all religious controversies and for evaluating all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, human teachings, and individual interpretations d, and in whose judgment we are to rest, is nothing but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit. In this Scripture our faith finds its final word.21

d private spirits
21 Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23.

I have presented this so that you may know what forms my worldview and what is the foundation from which my presuppositions are formed.

In my next post I will briefly re-present my proposition so that you can present your rebuttal to the specific texts and invalidate my syllogisms if you wish.

You have all that mumbo jumbo by a man. But here is truth straight from Jesus--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- Jesus has a God his Father. God does not have a God. This is the real world.--We all must choose who we believe.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I understand and fully appreciate your decision to withdraw from this debate. But if I may I would like to address two points.

1. You, out of the vast majority of those who deny the Deity of Christ, have realized the true nature of the premise of which I initiated this debate i.e. The Bible declares that Jesus is God. Virtually all others simply diverted to express their unbelief regarding Christ's divine nature all the while avoiding direct interaction with the evidence that I introduced supporting my propositions. I would not engage in a debate were you to start with the premise: The Qur'an Declares that Allah is God. Why not? Because, obviously the Qur'an does declare Allah is God. That's undeniable. So it would be foolish for me to get involved in such a debate as you, yourself, realize.

2. Regarding Jesus being the Messiah: With the close of the New Testament canon the Christian Church has received the full revelation of God in written form which is the end of the progressive unveiling of God's truth. Part of that truth is the full disclosure of the Person of the Messiah. In the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia under MESSIAH subheading:

4. New Elements Added:
(1) Future manifestation.

New features were now added to the Messiah in accordance with Jesus' own teaching. He had ascended to His Father and become the heavenly king. But all things were not yet put under Him. It was therefore seen that the full manifestation of His Messiahship was reserved for the future, that He would return in glory to fulfill His Messianic office and complete His Messianic reign.

(2) Divine Personality.

Higher views of His personality were now entertained. He is declared to be the Son of God, not in any official, but in a unique sense, as coequal with the Father (John 1:1; Romans 1:4,7; 1 Corinthians 1:3, etc.). His pre-existence is affirmed (John 1:1; 2 Corinthians 8:9); and when He comes again in his Messianic glory, He will exercise the Divine function of Universal Judge (Acts 10:42; 17:30, etc.).
Messiah - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

So, you see, the Christian view of the Messiah comes to a much fuller and higher state than the ancient Jewish understanding.

I think if the Messiah the Jews were expecting was going to be God Himself, then He would have told his chosen people. This whole notion of worshipping men as Gods comes from Greco-Roman World. They simply hijacked the message of Jesus pbuh, taking the title 'son of God' and replaced their own 'Sun of God' with it. We know this because amongst other things, Emperor Constantine in 321 A.D. decreed “the day of the sun” as a day of rest. He took the Jewish Sabbath and replaced it with Sun 'worship' Day.

We are to believe Palestine was under a hostile invading force that crushed any dissent, and Jesus pbuh was fine with that, telling his followers,

Mark 12:17 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Did Jesus pbuh say that or is it a later insertion?

Either way, sorry but it makes no sense worshipping a man who prayed to God, asked God why he had been forsaken, and told the people he was going to his God and their God. As page after page in this thread has shown, higher Christology is really only found in John and even there you find passages showing Jesus pbuh was far from divine. If you sincerely love the God of Abraham pbuh, then you should follow the Torah as Jesus pbuh commanded. Or keep studying and seek out who the Prophet to come after him was. Recall Jesus pbuh said,

12 “I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own authority. But He will speak whatever He hears, and He will tell you things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will receive from Me and will declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine. Therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and will declare it to you. John 16:12-15

 

[kjw47]

This is what you wrote: "It was God who saw that no flesh could live by the Law so he sent his son with a new covenant= LOVE.".

Clearly, the implication of that is that any previous covenant did not include "LOVE", which is totally absurd.

It is not I who "twisted" it as it is you who twisted your post about the part of what you wrote about the "new covenant", which is what I responded to, into a comment on the JW's, the latter of which I was not responding to.

I didn't say, love was ever out of the equation ever in history of mortal man. The written law was to hard for man to follow all of them constantly. In the LOVE--Jesus spoke of--ones heart wouldn't even consider--stealing from your brothers, committing adultery on your mate, etc,etc all the way down the line. Ones love would be the motive to do all things. How many could turn the other cheek if someone just punched you in the face. I don't know that I could. Love is as tough as the LAW. Unless one learns and applies --EVERY utterance from God. its still tough in a satan ruled world.

 

[Rick B]

YHVH was in heaven while Jesus was on earth--Lords prayer--Our Father-Who art in heaven--hallowed be thy name= YHVH--no other name existing will fit here--YHVH is the only true living God. Jesus' God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12

When you are unable to refute (of which you are consistently guilty because you never engage the Scriptural evidence which disproves your position) you lose the argument. Simple as that.

 

[Oeste]

It certainly comes with no surprise that one who serves and worships Satan would object to the Biblical teachings regarding the person and work of Jesus Christ. For part of that work is the destroying of the works of Satan, finally casting him into the Lake of Fire forever.

Agreed. I also find it no surprise that it is left to Trinitarians to defend scripture, while non-Trinitarian Christians (whom I collectively refer to as "Arians") are conspicuously absent.

1. You, out of the vast majority of those who deny the Deity of Christ, have realized the true nature of the premise of which I initiated this debate i.e. The Bible declares that Jesus is God. Virtually all others simply diverted to express their unbelief regarding Christ's divine nature all the while avoiding direct interaction with the evidence that I introduced supporting my propositions. I would not engage in a debate were you to start with the premise: The Qur'an Declares that Allah is God. Why not? Because, obviously the Qur'an does declare Allah is God. That's undeniable. So it would be foolish for me to get involved in such a debate as you, yourself, realize...

So, you see, the Christian view of the Messiah comes to a much fuller and higher state than the ancient Jewish understanding.

Exactly right and well stated Rick. This post also applies to the Alaskan Heathen, Ingledsva, as we see Old Testament through the New and not the other way around. We certainly do not view it "heretical" as she does.

As for the New Testament, I agree this is a closed canon with no "new" writings.

 

[Oeste]

Jesus wasn't the savior until he completed his earthly task living a sinless existence, if he failed and sinned he would not be anyones savior.

The Bible disagrees with you!

Luke 2:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Djhwoodwerks makes and excellent point on this kjw. Jesus was born our Savior, he didn't become our Savior.

The scripture is very clear he was born, not made, and I find such denials troubling. Who convinced you otherwise, and on what basis was such a conviction made?

 

[Oeste]

It has a history of undoing 1750 years of error teachings that got in to translating by Catholicism--this is Fact. There is a lot of proof. They only had error filled translations to use the first 80 years--they made errors themselves--But all have seen the correction. It took many years to undo all that was wrong--by many men--studying-- different bibles and older writings, history, language, whatever they could find. By making correction, in front of all the hearts that stand against them, have proved 100% --truth is what they want.

First you draw parallels between Noah's ark and your Organization, which is nonsensical. Noah did not build a pyramid, a temple, a house, or a yacht before “tacking” toward an arc. Did Noah build an arc two hundred cubits in length when God just told him three? So if Noah got it right the first time, why can’t the Governing Board?

Instead of taking responsibility, apologizing and repenting for their errors, your Organization prefers to take the low road and blame it on Christianity!

So let me ask you something KJW while we put this whole thing to bed:

(1) Can you tell us which “mistranslated” bible led your Organization into believing 1914 was to be Armageddon? Was it the King James Version, The Emphasized Bible, Gideon’s or some other?

(2) Which Christian church deceived your Organization into believing Jesus Christ visited them invisibly in 1918, or that the ancient worthies would be resurrected in 1925?

(3) Which “uncorrected” manuscript told your Governing Board there were only a few months before Armageddon in 1940?

(4) Which Christian leader planted the whole notion of 1975 into the minds of your Governing Board?

(5) The Governing Board claims they are the sole "channel" of communication with God today. Can you explain the methods "Christendom" used to jump between God and His chosen channel?

(6) Can you give examples from scripture? Perhaps cases where Moses or Elijah received communication, but the message was confused because local clergy jumped in?

(7) Can you explain who in Christendom was doing this? Was it the Pope? The President? How did they determine it was "Christendom", and not Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims?

(8) Can you support your answer with peered reviewed articles, white papers, or (if you must) specific quotes from Watchtower literature?​

Look KJW, nobody's perfect, and I'm not saying you have to be. But It seems to me that Jehovah Witnesses are constantly asked to bear “false” witness against their Christian neighbors. The fact you call yourselves “Jehovah’s” Witness while doing so simply makes any testimony you speak all the more audacious and incredulous.

Someone had to make correction here in these last days or this couldn't be truth-Daniel 12:4) Truth is here abundantly.

Well there you go…you said it yourself….it “couldn’t be truth”. So while you correctly recognize Daniel 12:4 as true, you acknowledge the embellished testimony as not.

 

[Rick B]

First you draw parallels between Noah's ark and your Organization, which is nonsensical. Noah did not build a pyramid, a temple, a house, or a yacht before “tacking” toward an arc. Did Noah build an arc two hundred cubits in length when God just told him three? So if Noah got it right the first time, why can’t the Governing Board?

Instead of taking responsibility, apologizing and repenting for their errors, your Organization prefers to take the low road and blame it on Christianity!

So let me ask you something KJW while we put this whole thing to bed:

(1) Can you tell us which “mistranslated” bible led your Organization into believing 1914 was to be Armageddon? Was it the King James Version, The Emphasized Bible, Gideon’s or some other?

(2) Which Christian church deceived your Organization into believing Jesus Christ visited them invisibly in 1918, or that the ancient worthies would be resurrected in 1925?

(3) Which “uncorrected” manuscript told your Governing Board there were only a few months before Armageddon in 1940?

(4) Which Christian leader planted the whole notion of 1975 into the minds of your Governing Board?

(5) The Governing Board claims they are the sole "channel" of communication with God today. Can you explain the methods "Christendom" used to jump between God and His chosen channel?

(6) Can you give examples from scripture? Perhaps cases where Moses or Elijah received communication, but the message was confused because local clergy jumped in?

(7) Can you explain who in Christendom was doing this? Was it the Pope? The President? How did they determine it was "Christendom", and not Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims?

(8) Can you support your answer with peered reviewed articles, white papers, or (if you must) specific quotes from Watchtower literature?​

Look KJW, nobody's perfect, and I'm not saying you have to be. But It seems to me that Jehovah Witnesses are constantly asked to bear “false” witness against their Christian neighbors. The fact you call yourselves “Jehovah’s” Witness while doing so simply makes any testimony you speak all the more audacious and incredulous.



Well there you go…you said it yourself….it “couldn’t be truth”. So while you correctly recognize Daniel 12:4 as true, you acknowledge the embellished testimony as not.

Ouch

 

[kjw47]

When you are unable to refute (of which you are consistently guilty because you never engage the Scriptural evidence which disproves your position) you lose the argument. Simple as that.

There are only errors that contradict Jesus and Paul. John 20:17, 1Cor 8:6-- you believe non bible writers errors in translation that contradict Jesus and Paul.

 

[kjw47]

Djhwoodwerks makes and excellent point on this kjw. Jesus was born our Savior, he didn't become our Savior.

The scripture is very clear he was born, not made, and I find such denials troubling. Who convinced you otherwise, and on what basis was such a conviction made?

Those that know God, know Jesus could have sinned and failed. He had free will. So he had to complete his earthly task to be savior. He handed that sacrifice to his Father upon entering heaven again. YHVH had confidence in Jesus to complete that task.

 

[kjw47]

First you draw parallels between Noah's ark and your Organization, which is nonsensical. Noah did not build a pyramid, a temple, a house, or a yacht before “tacking” toward an arc. Did Noah build an arc two hundred cubits in length when God just told him three? So if Noah got it right the first time, why can’t the Governing Board?

Instead of taking responsibility, apologizing and repenting for their errors, your Organization prefers to take the low road and blame it on Christianity!

So let me ask you something KJW while we put this whole thing to bed:

(1) Can you tell us which “mistranslated” bible led your Organization into believing 1914 was to be Armageddon? Was it the King James Version, The Emphasized Bible, Gideon’s or some other?

(2) Which Christian church deceived your Organization into believing Jesus Christ visited them invisibly in 1918, or that the ancient worthies would be resurrected in 1925?

(3) Which “uncorrected” manuscript told your Governing Board there were only a few months before Armageddon in 1940?

(4) Which Christian leader planted the whole notion of 1975 into the minds of your Governing Board?

(5) The Governing Board claims they are the sole "channel" of communication with God today. Can you explain the methods "Christendom" used to jump between God and His chosen channel?

(6) Can you give examples from scripture? Perhaps cases where Moses or Elijah received communication, but the message was confused because local clergy jumped in?

(7) Can you explain who in Christendom was doing this? Was it the Pope? The President? How did they determine it was "Christendom", and not Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims?

(8) Can you support your answer with peered reviewed articles, white papers, or (if you must) specific quotes from Watchtower literature?​

Look KJW, nobody's perfect, and I'm not saying you have to be. But It seems to me that Jehovah Witnesses are constantly asked to bear “false” witness against their Christian neighbors. The fact you call yourselves “Jehovah’s” Witness while doing so simply makes any testimony you speak all the more audacious and incredulous.



Well there you go…you said it yourself….it “couldn’t be truth”. So while you correctly recognize Daniel 12:4 as true, you acknowledge the embellished testimony as not.

I studied a lot during my 59 years, both sides, and facts of history, the teachings of Jesus--there is 0 doubt in all creation--the JW teachers belong to Jesus. 2 billion have trinity dogma overriding the teachings of Jesus. Dan 12:4--means--no one knew those truths until God revealed them at the proper time here in these last days. Not even his angels knew those truths-1Peter 1:12. errors were taught on those truths because the teachings were in the bible already--not one knew the true meaning until these last days---Correction had to be made. It has been, all see it but most reject it.

 

[Rick B]

There are only errors that contradict Jesus and Paul. John 20:17, 1Cor 8:6-- you believe non bible writers errors in translation that contradict Jesus and Paul.

The only possible logical deduction from your accusation regarding I "believe non bible writers" is that your sect has the original autographs from the original inspired authors and that, of course, is patently absurd. The NWT is your translation. You are only engaging in apoplectic rants. Not logical, Biblical debate.

 

[metis]

The written law was to hard for man to follow all of them constantly.

Yes it is, but that is what God called for. If we fail, we try to make amends to whom we've hurt and also ask forgiveness from God as it is called for in the Tanakh. Forgiveness is not just a Christian thingy.

In the LOVE--Jesus spoke of--ones heart wouldn't even consider--stealing from your brothers, committing adultery on your mate, etc,etc all the way down the line. Ones love would be the motive to do all things.

As is taught in many other religions. The ideal is to not even think of sinning, but even if we do then the next step is to not act on such an impulse. But even if we fail at both, there's still repentance and forgiveness.

 

[Muffled]

The bible is clear---God always was, and always will be--0 parents. Jesus has a mortal mother.

I believe there is no statement to that effect in the Bible.

I believe that fits in with what an all powerful God can do.

 

[Oeste]

Those that know God, know Jesus could have sinned and failed. He had free will. So he had to complete his earthly task to be savior. He handed that sacrifice to his Father upon entering heaven again. YHVH had confidence in Jesus to complete that task.

How can you say one thing when scripture says another? Here's the verse again:

But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people: 11Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord! (Luke 2:11)​

It doesn't say "Today in the City of David a child we're confident could turn out to be your Savior has been born to you" does it?

In fact, it doesn't say that at all. Nor does it say: "Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you provided he plays his cards right", does it?

Perhaps it says "Today in the City of David a child who just might fail to become your Savior has been born to you." But I don't see that either.

So why are you telling us one thing when scripture specifically says something else? Is this another thing your Governing Board had to "correct" during these last days?

Who should we believe? Our bibles or your Governing Board? My bible says Jesus was born our Savior. Does the NWT say something different?

Can you quote the verse for me? Perhaps the version djwoodworks quoted for us was corrupted.

 

[Oeste]

I studied a lot during my 59 years, both sides, and facts of history, the teachings of Jesus--there is 0 doubt in all creation--the JW teachers belong to Jesus. 2 billion have trinity dogma overriding the teachings of Jesus. Dan 12:4--means--no one knew those truths until God revealed them at the proper time here in these last days. Not even his angels knew those truths-1Peter 1:12. errors were taught on those truths because the teachings were in the bible already--not one knew the true meaning until these last days---Correction had to be made. It has been, all see it but most reject it.

Thank you KJW, I’m sure if Christendom taught those things “Correction had to be made”. However I specifically asked who in Christendom taught your Governing Board things that needed correction. We wouldn’t want anyone who calls themselves a “Jehovah’s” Witness to be making a false witness against Christianity. That would bring “reproach upon Jehovah’s Name” wouldn’t it?

So here are the questions again. Pretend we're at a bible study. I’ve just handed you these questions, confident that after studying both sides for 59 years you can provide Rick, djwoodworks and myself with detailed, specific, truthful answers:

(1) Can you tell us which “mistranslated” bible led your Organization into believing 1914 was to be Armageddon? Was it the King James Version, The Emphasized Bible, Gideon’s or some other?

(2) Which Christian church deceived your Organization into believing Jesus Christ visited them invisibly in 1918, or that the ancient worthies would be resurrected in 1925?

(3) Which “uncorrected” manuscript told your Governing Board there were only a few months before Armageddon in 1940?

(4) Which Christian leader planted the whole notion of 1975 into the minds of your Governing Board?

(5) The Governing Board claims they are the sole "channel" of communication with God today. Can you explain the methods "Christendom" used to jump between God and His chosen channel?

(6) Can you give examples from scripture? Perhaps cases where Moses or Elijah received communication, but the message was confused because local clergy jumped in?

(7) Can you explain who in Christendom was doing this? Was it the Pope? The President? How did they determine it was "Christendom", and not Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims?

(8) Can you support your answer with peered reviewed articles, white papers, or (if you must) specific quotes from Watchtower literature?​

Thank you!

 

[kjw47]

The only possible logical deduction from your accusation regarding I "believe non bible writers" is that your sect has the original autographs from the original inspired authors and that, of course, is patently absurd. The NWT is your translation. You are only engaging in apoplectic rants. Not logical, Biblical debate.

Actually the FACTS of Israelite history proves God is a single being God. Its there, I shared scriptures with you from Jesus and Paul that contradict your teachers. They say the same thing in your translation.

 

[kjw47]

How can you say one thing when scripture says another? Here's the verse again:

But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people: 11Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord! (Luke 2:11)​

It doesn't say "Today in the City of David a child we're confident could turn out to be your Savior has been born to you" does it?

In fact, it doesn't say that at all. Nor does it say: "Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you provided he plays his cards right", does it?

Perhaps it says "Today in the City of David a child who just might fail to become your Savior has been born to you." But I don't see that either.

So why are you telling us one thing when scripture specifically says something else? Is this another thing your Governing Board had to "correct" during these last days?

Who should we believe? Our bibles or your Governing Board? My bible says Jesus was born our Savior. Does the NWT say something different?

Can you quote the verse for me? Perhaps the version djwoodworks quoted for us was corrupted.

Satan wouldn't have wasted his time tempting Jesus if he couldn't fail. God knew he wouldn't fail. He sent his best for us. The night Jesus was arrested, he prayed that it be taken from him( what was coming) but he said--Not my will--your will. To his God and Father.