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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Septuagint is not an original manuscript, the earliest date is the 3rd Century CE , Where are these 'original' manuscripts, if they did exist, likely burnt by the Septuagint forgers.
I didn't mean the "original manuscripts" in that way but was referring to the original Greek translations written long before Jesus existed versus later editions written by the early church. Obviously, we have no true original manuscripts from any source, including all the books of the NT.

There was no Kingdom of Israel,
Seems that you have an "agenda", and I have no interest in feeding that. So, I'll stick with this: Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) - Wikipedia

Recent archaeology does provide pretty convincing evidence for the Davidic dynasty, so that all being some sort of fabrication now seems out of the question. Now, scriptural accuracy is another matter.
 

Magus

Active Member
Majority of scholars believe the Kingdom of David never existed, for there is no evidence, archaeologists in Israel have found nothing,

Nimrud Slab ( 800 BCE ) ( North to South ) ( what's missing ? )
from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palastu
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Majority of scholars believe the Kingdom of David never existed, for there is no evidence, archaeologists in Israel have found nothing,

Nimrud Slab ( 800 BCE ) ( North to South ) ( what's missing ? )
from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palastu

The Tel Dan inscription references the "House of David" written on a 9th century BC stone slab discovered in 1993 in northern Israel stating "king of Israel" and "king of the house of David" demolishes your unfounded, a-historical rantings.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Tel Dan inscription references the "House of David" written on a 9th century BC stone slab discovered in 1993 in northern Israel stating "king of Israel" and "king of the house of David" demolishes your unfounded, a-historical rantings.
Ah, you beat me to the punch, so thanks. :)

Few modern Biblical archaeology discoveries have caused as much excitement as the Tel Dan inscription—writing on a ninth-century B.C. stone slab (or stela) that furnished the first historical evidence of King David from the Bible.

The Tel Dan inscription, or “House of David” inscription, was discovered in 1993 at the site of Tel Dan in northern Israel in an excavation directed by Israeli archaeologist Avraham Biran..
.- The Tel Dan Inscription: The First Historical Evidence of King David from the Bible - Biblical Archaeology Society

I wanted to post the source as well.
 

Magus

Active Member
The Tel Dan inscription references the "House of David" written on a 9th century BC stone slab discovered in 1993 in northern Israel stating "king of Israel" and "king of the house of David" demolishes your unfounded, a-historical rantings.

The Tal Dan is not contemporary to 'King David' but written by Aramean victors 150 years later.

The name written is 'bytdwd' , dwd is not a name, but a title, meaning Beloved, also why is there no word divider in 'bytdwd', it is more likely an epithet of a deity.

King David reigned between 1010-970 BCE, Solomon between 970 to 931 BCE

Evidence dating between 1010 BCE to 931 BCE ?

How does an Empire leave no evidence of its existence?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
From the same source: Such skepticism aside, however, most Biblical scholars and archaeologists readily accepted that the Tel Dan stela had supplied the first concrete proof of a historical King David from the Bible, making it one of the top Biblical archaeology discoveries reported in BAR.

Contrast the above to this clearly bogus statement: "Majority of scholars believe the Kingdom of David never existed, for there is no evidence, archaeologists in Israel have found nothing".



 

Magus

Active Member
From the same source: Such skepticism aside, however, most Biblical scholars and archaeologists readily accepted that the Tel Dan stela had supplied the first concrete proof of a historical King David from the Bible, making it one of the top Biblical archaeology discoveries reported in BAR.

how it is concrete when it isn't even contemporary , there is contemporary evidence for Ramses II, his body is in a museum, the tombs of David & Solomon are forgeries, there are no bodies, no bones for any of them.


1 Kings 4:21
Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt

All of this?
Nimrud Slab ( 800 BCE )
from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palastu




 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Ah, you beat me to the punch, so thanks. :)

Few modern Biblical archaeology discoveries have caused as much excitement as the Tel Dan inscription—writing on a ninth-century B.C. stone slab (or stela) that furnished the first historical evidence of King David from the Bible.

The Tel Dan inscription, or “House of David” inscription, was discovered in 1993 at the site of Tel Dan in northern Israel in an excavation directed by Israeli archaeologist Avraham Biran..
.- The Tel Dan Inscription: The First Historical Evidence of King David from the Bible - Biblical Archaeology Society

I wanted to post the source as well.

Think he'll recant?
 

Magus

Active Member
Contemporary - living or occurring at the same time

You still unable to answer simple questions.

Hatti - Amurru - Tyre - Sidon - Humri - Edom - Palastu

These are the names, from north to south in a 800 BCE description, Which one is Israel, which one is Judea?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Think he'll recant?
My experience says no, which is why I picked up on the "agenda" that was being pushed and why I really have no desire to engage it.

As an anthropologist who has studied the Middle East in the Middle East, I'm well aware of both the science and, unfortunately, the politics that all too often gets played. Since I am pretty much an agnostic, and since I am a scientist, I'm interested in evidence, not agendas.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You still unable to answer simple questions.

Hatti - Amurru - Tyre - Sidon - Humri - Edom - Palastu

These are the names, from north to south in a 800 BCE description, Which one is Israel, which one is Judea?
The same area can have different names depending on who's doing the naming. For example, on some modern Palestinian maps that I have seen when in Israel, "Israel" does not show up but "Palestine" sure does.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Sorry, no longer worth engaging. If you do not understand enough of how the English language to recognize the very large differences between the phrases "looks," "looks to" and "looks at," how are we ever going to have an intelligent dialogue. I can only do so when conversing with people who have some familiarity with the language we are using.

Since you have a rather peculiar tendency to outright change my responses into convenient straw men you can knock down, then yes, I agree it's no longer worth engaging.

Nevertheless I thank you for sharing your opinion. At least we end in agreement.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
The same area can have different names depending on who's doing the naming. For example, on some modern Palestinian maps that I have seen when in Israel, "Israel" does not show up but "Palestine" sure does.

Agreed, but my first thought was that he had a research paper due and needed to enlist the aid of some fellow researchers.

If he has a definitive answer to his query, I think he'll post a map and make claim to source, but with any such map, more than one source would be necessary, and to really carry any weight, several sources that agree...especially from the countries and people involved.

Great claims still require great evidence.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
BTW how can you know that God has said nothing about you if, according to you, there is no God that can say anything? Self-contradictory? Your certainty about what God says and your certainty that that God doesn't exist is self-refuting.
This is an absurd assertion. If there is no (name the person) then that person not only has nothing to say but can say nothing. Non-existence is kind of definitive that way. :cool:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Agreed, but my first thought was that he had a research paper due and needed to enlist the aid of some fellow researchers.

If he has a definitive answer to his query, I think he'll post a map and make claim to source, but with any such map, more than one source would be necessary, and to really carry any weight, several sources that agree...especially from the countries and people involved.

Great claims still require great evidence.
Yes, and let me throw in another factor as well.

Each of us is acculturated, so there's a strong tendency to see things through our own cultural perspective. Thousands of years ago in that area of the world, there really were no boundaries as we know them, especially since most of the area was arid to semi-arid, thus populations were more located only in certain areas.

For example, when you look at a map of the Babylonian Empire, there's a tendency to think that boundaries you may see were the real boundaries of it. But that's simply not the case as these early empires really didn't have specific boundaries at all.

On top of that, if one lived outside the Babylonian Empire, the name that they were called was typically different. An quick example is that the "Eskimo" is the name that some of the Indian groups gave them (eaters of raw meat-- not used as a compliment, btw), whereas "Inuit" was often used for them themselves.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I have two questions regarding the New World Translation if you are willing. I have the 1984 revised 2006 printed edition. Below is quoted from the 2013 revision.

Psalm 102:25: Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.+
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
Just like a garment they will all wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away.
27 But you are the same, and your years will never end.+
28 The children of your servants will dwell securely,
And their offspring will be firmly established before you.”

My questions are: Who is the subject being described here? And what does this tell us about him?


God is being spoken of. God did it all--He created- Michael-Jesus) direct, first and last( Prov 8)--- then created all other things through Jesus.
He always was and always will be.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I think you are confusing other Bibles with your own. Your translation of the Bible teaches "2" Gods, not other translations.

NWT (John 1:1-3) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

John 1:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Your false reasoning makes it seem so. Not one called a god is being called--THE GOD.
So by translating a capitol G into the last line makes it seem like Jesus is God, but the facts show the opposite is true. tHE 2ND LINE READS-- And God was with God, In plain trinity talk--how many Gods there? not even to mention the other God over there, the Holy spirit.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
God is being spoken of. God did it all--He created- Michael-Jesus) direct, first and last( Prov 8)--- then created all other things through Jesus.
He always was and always will be.

Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, this is depicting YHWH/Jehovah describing Him as eternal, unchangeable, Creator of all things, although Jesus is not mentioned specifically. And these attributes are only true of God. As far as these verses applying to Almighty God alone we agree. In the margin of my copy of the NWT this section of Psalm 102 has a reference going to Hebrews 1:10-12.

Psalm 102:25-28 NWT
Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.+
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
Just like a garment they will all wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away.
27 But you are the same, and your years will never end.+
28 The children of your servants will dwell securely,
And their offspring will be firmly established before you.”+

Hebrews 1:8-12 NWT
8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+ forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.* 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you+ with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”+ 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”+

As you can see the personal pronouns are referring to verse 8 - the Son and without controversy the Son is Jesus Christ.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
For a Christian the Bible is their ultimate authority. It is God’s revelation. The Word of truth. It is that Word of God that clearly rendered the judgment regarding the atheistic worldview that I quoted. So to question my capability to understand what is in your thinking is moot. I do understand, however, because you have made it painfully obvious, that you deny that "all Scripture is breathed out by God" and especially "don't like" the verdict that is written in God’s Word against unbelievers. BTW how can you know that God has said nothing about you if, according to you, there is no God that can say anything? Self-contradictory? Your certainty about what God says and your certainty that that God doesn't exist is self-refuting. It appears that you have revealed that the Scriptures are true when it says that the unbeliever suppresses that innate knowledge that God does exist. But sometimes they inadvertently let it out.

But while there is life there is hope.
So yes, I clearly understand that you subscribe to scripture -- and will accept scripture over actual evidence in the real world. This seems odd to me, but who am I to argue?

However, whatever I say, I back up with arguments from the real world, the only world I know, and the only one I can validate. You back up every scriptural argument with more scripture, all of which you accept as true because, well, heck, because it says it true, and why would it lie?

But when I read scripture, I find such nonsense that I can only conclude it was written by humans, and not only by humans, but by lots of different humans who neither conferred with nor agree with one another, who had little knowledge of the way the world works or the human mind works, and who were not at all averse to making things up when it suited them, to add colour and excitement to an otherwise boring and unconvincing narrative.

Let me give an example: those whom God wished to be dead. Now, first, we consider the flood, in which God himself did the dirty work, killing everybody on earth, including the new-born and unborn who are surely innocent (and all the land animals and insects into the bargain), with the exception of 8 supposedly really exceptionally good people. People who, let us not forget, just about immediately prove themselves to be not so exceptionally good once the flood's behind them.

Later, God decides that Egypt needed a little punishment, and so contrives (with absolutely spectacular aim) to kill only those who were the first-born -- proving, by the way, that he didn't need to kill everybody during the flood at all, he just couldn't be bothered working out something a little more judicious, a little fairer than a flood that kills the innocent along with the guilty.

Oh, and then, when he decides that the Canaanites have to go, he orders Joshua to slay them all (perhaps God doesn't want to dirty his own hands anymore?), boys, men, animals, women -- except the virgin girls. (Oooh, I really think this was written by men, not God. It seems so typical -- but hey, what do I know?) Anyway, I'm sure God only the best intention for those virgin girls, and no doubt they all gave consent before they were ..... whatevered.

And the David commits a naughty naughty by getting Bathsheba's hubby Uriah killed because he has (rather rudely) knocked her up. And God, who really ought to know about justice, punishes David how? By killing him? No -- by killing the child: slowly, over 7 days.

Like it or not, this is all scripture -- and it is all scripture used every day by Christians. But put it all together, as a unified whole in your mind, as I have, and try to visualize this God you so admire?

When I do that, I can come to very few conclusions -- that God doesn't exist, period end of story, or the scriptures that lead to what I see are really not much better than any other work of humans beings, however well-motivated. And I am willing to be that Gautama, Mohammed and Karl Marx were all well-motivated, too. But I don't accept their works as all perfectly true, either.
 
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