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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I know why. You cannot resist the temptation to express your hatred of the God that exists.
I answered this once, but I wish to do so again, with something that I wrote quite some time ago -- having to do with whether I have a "hatred of the God that exists," or something else. Here is an essay from 2006.

The God in Your Head is Real

The vast majority of people on earth believe in the existence of God. But what sort of “god” is it? What characteristics does it have? How should this “god” be defined and how should it be known? What sort of claim to a separate reality can we find?

The answer to this is very difficult for atheists like myself, and probably for agnostics, too, although I won’t claim to speak for them.

So, what if I were to ask someone if “fratchly” exists? I think that the first answer I would get would not be either “yes, fratchly exists” or “no, fratchly does not exist,” but rather, “what do you mean by ‘fratchly?’ ” In fact, until I was prepared to provide some sort of definition for “fratchly,” I am unlikely ever to get a response as to whether it exists or not. Is it animal, vegetable or mineral, or perhaps spirit? Is it big or small? Is it here on earth, in the sky, in space, etc?

It has been estimated that humans have created over 100,000 religions in the last 10,000 years. Some of our religions have had multiple gods with their own specific responsibilities; some religions have had only a few or even just one god. Some of our gods have been palpably real: they’ve lived on mountains, under the seas, in caves, or in the sky. Other gods have been intangible spirit only, some coherent spirits, others amorphous, everywhere at once. Some have been omnipotent, some had their powers limited and could be beaten. Some were loving, some cruel, some indifferent. The variety is endless.

Every single one of them, without any exceptions whatsoever, have had – in the minds of their believers – human-like characteristics, whether those were physical, psychological, or both.

And almost every single one of them has since passed out of favour, and thus out of existence. They are all dead and buried in the crypt that we call “mythology.”

But for every human believer, there is, I think a “god” fitting some sort of description, known only to the believer, existing in their head. And inasmuch as this “God-in-the-Head” is perceived as having wishes, desires and needs, and inasmuch as it seems to issue commandments to lead the believer to satisfy those wishes, desires and needs, and inasmuch as the believer feels compelled to act on those wishes and commandments, then this “God-in-the-Head” is very real, and very potent.

Some of those wishes are benevolent, and to the extent that they are acted upon can be of great benefit to humanity. Not always, though, as can be seen through the very benevolent desire of missionaries to “bring the heathen savages to God.” For the sake of their immortal souls, of course! This has frequently resulted in a few saved “souls,” and many, many merely dead ones.

Some of the commandments of the “God-in-the-Head” are not so benevolent. The perceived “command” to kill witches, heretics and apostates has resulted in endless misery around the world for millennia. The perceived antipathy of the “God-in-the-Head” to those who are not quite like the rest of us has cast thousands into prison, or death. The perceived unwillingness of this "God-in-the-Head" to countenance independent thought, leading to differing world-views, has too often led to legitimate inquirers after truth being excommunicated or disfellowshipped or shunned by their communities. This has all too often come at terrible cost to individuals and their innocent families.

Yes, as I think about it, because this “God-in-the-Head” has such power to act in the world through its host, it is very, very real. And it frightens me.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
So yes, I clearly understand that you subscribe to scripture -- and will accept scripture over actual evidence in the real world. This seems odd to me, but who am I to argue?

However, whatever I say, I back up with arguments from the real world, the only world I know, and the only one I can validate. You back up every scriptural argument with more scripture, all of which you accept as true because, well, heck, because it says it true, and why would it lie?

But when I read scripture, I find such nonsense that I can only conclude it was written by humans, and not only by humans, but by lots of different humans who neither conferred with nor agree with one another, who had little knowledge of the way the world works or the human mind works, and who were not at all averse to making things up when it suited them, to add colour and excitement to an otherwise boring and unconvincing narrative.

Let me give an example: those whom God wished to be dead. Now, first, we consider the flood, in which God himself did the dirty work, killing everybody on earth, including the new-born and unborn who are surely innocent (and all the land animals and insects into the bargain), with the exception of 8 supposedly really exceptionally good people. People who, let us not forget, just about immediately prove themselves to be not so exceptionally good once the flood's behind them.

Later, God decides that Egypt needed a little punishment, and so contrives (with absolutely spectacular aim) to kill only those who were the first-born -- proving, by the way, that he didn't need to kill everybody during the flood at all, he just couldn't be bothered working out something a little more judicious, a little fairer than a flood that kills the innocent along with the guilty.

Oh, and then, when he decides that the Canaanites have to go, he orders Joshua to slay them all (perhaps God doesn't want to dirty his own hands anymore?), boys, men, animals, women -- except the virgin girls. (Oooh, I really think this was written by men, not God. It seems so typical -- but hey, what do I know?) Anyway, I'm sure God only the best intention for those virgin girls, and no doubt they all gave consent before they were ..... whatevered.

And the David commits a naughty naughty by getting Bathsheba's hubby Uriah killed because he has (rather rudely) knocked her up. And God, who really ought to know about justice, punishes David how? By killing him? No -- by killing the child: slowly, over 7 days.

Like it or not, this is all scripture -- and it is all scripture used every day by Christians. But put it all together, as a unified whole in your mind, as I have, and try to visualize this God you so admire?

When I do that, I can come to very few conclusions -- that God doesn't exist, period end of story, or the scriptures that lead to what I see are really not much better than any other work of humans beings, however well-motivated. And I am willing to be that Gautama, Mohammed and Karl Marx were all well-motivated, too. But I don't accept their works as all perfectly true, either.

Since the premise of this debate is "The Bible Declares that Jesus is God" and I don't recall you offering any direct responses relevant to my Scriptural arguments and syllogisms backing up those arguments nor the Granville-Sharp's Rule of Greek grammar, I don’t know why you decided to involve yourself in this debate. Except, of course, to express your animus towards God, the Bible, and believers as you have continually done, culminating in the above diatribe. If you feel relieved I'm glad you joined in.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
This is an absurd assertion. If there is no (name the person) then that person not only has nothing to say but can say nothing. Non-existence is kind of definitive that way. :cool:

I'm sorry but if you demand proof for my contention then the same burden of proof lies in your court. I can demand proof for yours.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I'm sorry but if you demand proof for my contention then the same burden of proof lies in your court. I can demand proof for yours.
I'm sorry, could you clarify, please? You demand that I prove that something that does not EXIST also has nothing to say?

No, I suppose I can't. But at the same time, I would find it hard to prove that something non-existent was 3 feet tall and red. You might find that easier to deal with than I do, but I don't suppose I'd ever understand why.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I'm sorry, could you clarify, please? You demand that I prove that something that does not EXIST also has nothing to say?

No, I suppose I can't. But at the same time, I would find it hard to prove that something non-existent was 3 feet tall and red. You might find that easier to deal with than I do, but I don't suppose I'd ever understand why.

Sure. You want proof for the existence of God. I'm asking you to prove the negative - that God does not exist. The burden of proof is the same for either proposition.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
All these things people claim to read in the Bible are simply their interpretation of what they think the scriptures say.
Nothing more.Nothing less.
Unless they claim to have written it
Themselves.Anyone ???
Remember what that book says
About bearing false witness
Lying.
It only proves that you either don't understand it or why it was written to
Begin with.
All these so called experts on the Bible.
It's hilarious.Turn something so simple into Chinese arithmetic.

I give up......do you have an opinion on this issue or are you just passing judgment on posters? :shrug:

This is a debate forum. Do you have something to add that might contribute to the thread?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
There's no proof Jesus is God.

Nor has anyone claimed there is, but it's interesting how standards are raised for Trinitarians.

Proof only exists in mathematics and logic. What we've offered here is simply overwhelming scriptural evidence that Jesus is God.

@Jason0047 was kind enough to post some of this at 40, 41 and 42.

If someone offers a refutation while maintaining a coherent and consistent Christology preferably based on well grounded hermeneutics that respects the authority of scripture, I'm all eyes and ears. We just haven't seen or heard it yet, but then it's only been about a couple thousand years.:rolleyes:

It is my contention that had the early church adopted any of the non and anti-Trinitarian views expressed on this thread Christian theology would have fallen along with the paganism it supplanted long ago. Quite simply, the only doctrine that fully explains Christ's deity and adheres to scripture without resorting to polytheism is the Trinity.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Sure. You want proof for the existence of God. I'm asking you to prove the negative - that God does not exist. The burden of proof is the same for either proposition.
Look, I can't help but notice that you don't quote anything that God has to say that is not already in scripture. (Now, I admit that George W. Bush did say that God told him to invade Iraq, but this seems somewhat unlikely to me -- otherwise, I know of nobody else running around making claims of what God has recently said.)

Do you believe in Djinn and Houris? Muslims certainly do. If you do not, do you assert that they do not exist -- in which case you should be able to prove it, by your own reasoning.

Let us try to clear this up -- I admit freely I cannot prove the non-existence of God. Likewise, I cannot prove the non-existence of a Ming Dynasty Teapot circling among the rings of Saturn (image borrowed from Bertrand Russell). Yet, I know the provenance of Ming teapots. I know something about what it would take to get one all the way to Saturn, and I know something about the likelihood of a fragile object surviving for very long among all that jostling matter. And besides, whether it's there or not is, in the end, entirely irrelevant to me, and affects me not in the slightest.

And so, I do not believe it's there, and I treat that non-belief about the same way as I treat an established, proven fact.

Thus it is with God, for me. What I've been told about this scriptural God you speak of, compared with what I know about the world, with how I understand the sciences that describe how things work in the world, and everything else that I can intuit ought to be present in the world if this God were part of it, tells me that, like the teapot, it just isn't so. And further, in my 70 years of life, I've watched the world most carefully. I've seen good people suffer, innocents (of minutes, hours or days old) die. I've seen some of what you suppose must be "God's creation," creatures that cause untold misery, often of the most horrendous nature. (Do a Google search of terms like "10 worst parasites" or "most vicious diseases" and you'll soon see what I mean.) And at the same time, I've seen far too many very bad people to whom nothing but good seems to happen. And everything else in between, showing just how haphazard the whole deal really is.

And so, I conclude that even if your God exists (though I strongly doubt it for the reasons I gave above), well, it doesn't make a damned bit of difference down here where we live anyway. It is, therefore, no longer worthy of consideration, irrelevant, and affects me not in the slightest. Just like the teapot.

And then, when I use language like "God does not exist," it is in that sense. Not provable, but something to be treated about the same way as I treat an established, proven fact.
 
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Riders

Well-Known Member
Nor has anyone claimed there is, but it's interesting how standards are raised for Trinitarians.

Proof only exists in mathematics and logic. What we've offered here is simply overwhelming scriptural evidence that Jesus is God.

@Jason0047 was kind enough to post some of this at 40, 41 and 42.

If someone offers a refutation while maintaining a coherent and consistent Christology preferably based on well grounded hermeneutics that respects the authority of scripture, I'm all eyes and ears. We just haven't seen or heard it yet, but then it's only been about a couple thousand years.:rolleyes:

It is my contention that had the early church adopted any of the non and anti-Trinitarian views expressed on this thread Christian theology would have fallen along with the paganism it supplanted long ago. Quite simply, the only doctrine that fully explains Christ's deity and adheres to scripture without resorting to polytheism is the Trinity.

Seeing that scripture is unreliable it means very little.Scripture has many mistakes translated words and meanings wrong so many different mistakes the bible is completely unreliable.

The bible is a fraud the real manuscripts from 2000 years ago never got translated or carried onto our generation correctly.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Nor has anyone claimed there is, but it's interesting how standards are raised for Trinitarians.

Proof only exists in mathematics and logic. What we've offered here is simply overwhelming scriptural evidence that
Jesus is God.

@Jason0047 was kind enough to post some of this at 40, 41 and 42.

If someone offers a refutation while maintaining a coherent and consistent Christology preferably based on well grounded hermeneutics that respects the authority of scripture, I'm all eyes and ears. We just haven't seen or heard it yet, but then it's only been about a couple thousand years.:rolleyes:

It is my contention that had the early church adopted any of the non and anti-Trinitarian views expressed on this thread Christian theology would have fallen along with the paganism it supplanted long ago. Quite simply, the only doctrine that fully explains Christ's deity and adheres to scripture without resorting to polytheism is the Trinity.

Wrong.the oneness Pentecostals have a version of the deity of Jesus that is not the Trinity.

They claim the Trinity is Pagan. My sister goes to a Judeo Messianic Christian church they also don't believe in the trinity.

You don't know much about theology do you?
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Wrong.the oneness Pentecostals have a version of the deity of Jesus that is not the Trinity.

They claim the Trinity is Pagan. My sister goes to a Judeo Messianic Christian church they also don't believe in the trinity.

You don't know much about theology do you?

Orthodox Christian Theology insists that the doctrine of the Trinity is essential in defining one as a Christian. If one denies that there is only being of God who eternally exists as three co-equal and co-eternal Persons namely the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit then that person cannot be considered a Biblical Christian.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Seeing that scripture is unreliable it means very little.Scripture has many mistakes translated words and meanings wrong so many different mistakes the bible is completely unreliable.

The bible is a fraud the real manuscripts from 2000 years ago never got translated or carried onto our generation correctly.

Are you a scholar, or are you just repeating what you heard someone say their sisters boyfriends cousins uncle told them?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I have not read this thread but I will.My reply for the first post and OP is this.There is a scripture that says if you confess is Lord you will be saved.tThat the only scripture that gives you actual words to say to save yourself.

There are many words the bible uses for Jesus Son of man Son of God Emanuel etc.

Why is it that when I run into you Christians like my sister insisting upon the fact the bible says Jesus is God you demand me and other Christians verbalize Jesus is God.

Is that a verbal ritual y'all use to feel like you've been saved.Requiring me to say Jesus is God is not in the bible.

I'm not arguing the dirty if Jesus but the fact y'all you have to verbally say Jesus is God to be saved


Find me a scripture outside of if you confess Jesus as Lord Lord isn't God.Find me one that specifically says I have to verbally say that.its a,made up ritual that's not biblical.You guys are imagining things.its a magical verbal incantation y'all make up


I believe it is a question of belief. Do you believe that a hick Jewish prophet can save you or do you believe only God can save you?

I believe it isn't a requirement but how could anyone but God be a legitimate Lord.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
God will be showing all of us soon.

I believe the Qu'ran says something to the extent that all the different opinions will be resolved. I believe the question remains: Will you be there? Heck even the apostates can get there even though that is hard to believe.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I believe it is a question of belief. Do you believe that a hick Jewish prophet can save you or do you believe only God can save you?

I believe it isn't a requirement but how could anyone but God be a legitimate Lord.

I think to use such pejorative insulting language against Jesus Christ displays such a contempt for civil debate that you should be banned from any further posting.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, this is depicting YHWH/Jehovah describing Him as eternal, unchangeable, Creator of all things, although Jesus is not mentioned specifically. And these attributes are only true of God. As far as these verses applying to Almighty God alone we agree. In the margin of my copy of the NWT this section of Psalm 102 has a reference going to Hebrews 1:10-12.

Psalm 102:25-28 NWT
Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.+
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
Just like a garment they will all wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away.
27 But you are the same, and your years will never end.+
28 The children of your servants will dwell securely,
And their offspring will be firmly established before you.”+

Hebrews 1:8-12 NWT
8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+ forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.* 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you+ with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”+ 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”+

As you can see the personal pronouns are referring to verse 8 - the Son and without controversy the Son is Jesus Christ.


It is not calling Jesus God at Heb 1:8-12--- it clearly shows Jesus has a God,
Companions mentioned are angels--Michael is Jesus.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I believe the Qu'ran says something to the extent that all the different opinions will be resolved. I believe the question remains: Will you be there? Heck even the apostates can get there even though that is hard to believe.



Revelation is nearing its conclusion. The fall of Babylon is next. Like a swift pitch into the sea( very quickly it is done away with.)= worldwide false religions. She will be stripped of her fleshy parts( wealth, land holdings, etc)
The govts do it through the 7 headed beast--the merchants stand at a distance and mourn this event.
So its not govts, its not the commercial system--the only other thing in the power position is religion.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Amen and Jesus in the flesh.


Jesus teaches he has a God---- someone is lying, but worse billions are deceived by the lies. God instructed all---This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM.
 
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