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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Jason0047

Member
Please go back and read the 160 reasons in Scripture that says Jesus is God.
Sure, pictures are pretty.
But pictures do not always teach the truth about things.
The Word of God is our authority and not a bunch of pretty pictures with your own opinion that denies the Creator.



...
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
...If the authors of the New Testament had believed that Jesus was God himself, surely they would have explicitly said so, or God could have provided some extra divine inspiration at the very least, so that later Christians wouldn't have to conoct contrived explanations from the authors' words to make them say what they didn't.
Point. Why don't they just say it? Its like a giant hole in the boat. Where is the declaration?
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Point. Why don't they just say it? Its like a giant hole in the boat. Where is the declaration?

"After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst, 'Peace be with you'. Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here with your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving but believing'; Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.' John 20:26-29

There is an Apostle (Thomas) who confessed that Jesus is indeed both Lord and God. The other Apostles did not object. Jesus accepted, with no qualification, the title of deity.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Please go back and read the 160 reasons in Scripture that says Jesus is God.
Sure, pictures are pretty.
But pictures do not always teach the truth about things.
The Word of God is our authority and not a bunch of pretty pictures with your own opinion that denies the Creator.
...
upload_2017-5-29_21-40-1.jpeg

160 darts, all misses
That is the problem with indiscriminate verse throwing.
And relying on someone's work who is blind to hit the mark.

I will take your 160th and let us see if it pass.

160. Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall confess to GOD - Romans 14:11. The God "every tongue" is confessing to is JESUS CHRIST - Philippians 2:11

The allegation used 2 verses of the bible.

Romans 14:11 New International Version (NIV)

It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

Where was it written? It was written in Book of Isaiah.

Isaiah 45:23 New International Version (NIV)

By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

Who said those words according to the Book of Isaiah? Let us move up to the 22nd

Isaiah 45:22-23 New International Version (NIV)

“Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

Who is God according to the Book of Isaiah? Is it the Son? The HS?

Isaiah 64:8 New International Version (NIV)

Yet you, Lord, are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.

The second verse is

Philippians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Let us move it up to 9th down to the 11th so we can read the whole context

Philippians 2:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.

Who exalted Jesus Christ to the highest place?
God exalted him

Who gave Jesus Christ the name that is above every name?
God gave Jesus Christ the name

Who made every knee to bow and every tongue to acknowledge Jesus Christ is Lord?
God made that order by giving Jesus Christ the name.

Why do we worship Jesus Christ?
To the glory of God the Father.

That is why if each of the "160 reasons" are not really worth looking at. Looking the 160th is enough to know it is a dud. You should have tested one first, to check if it is a dud or if you really have a real Mcoy.

mortar-launch-fail.gif


But if we are going to look at the literature made by Trinitarian authors, you really need a ton of luck.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
"After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. ---There is an Apostle (Thomas) who confessed that Jesus is indeed both Lord and God. The other Apostles did not object. Jesus accepted, with no qualification, the title of deity.
467blOMG.gif


ON JOHN 20:28
“MY LORD AND MY GOD”


WHAT THOMAS UTTERED in John 20:28 should not be regarded as a statement of faith nor be considered as a strong biblical foundation to assert the alleged divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. John 20:28 reads:

“And Thomas answered and said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28 NKJV)

Why it should not be regarded as a statement of faith nor be considered as a strong biblical foundation of the alleged divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ?

THOMAS WAS NOT PREACHING AT THAT MOMENT BUT WAS FROM A STATE OF UNBELIEF

Remember that Thomas was not preaching at that moment. Actually, he was from a state of unbelief:

“The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!” (John 20:25-28, NKJV)

Take note of what the Lord Jesus Christ said to Thomas before he made the statement recorded in John 20:28. Jesus said to him, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. DO NOT BE UNBELIEVING, but believing.”

Let us compare the statement of Thomas which when he uttered his statement in John 2028 he was not in the act of preaching and from a state of unbelieving with the statement of Apostle Peter which when he said this he was in a state of filled with Holy Spirit and He is in the act of preaching:

“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
“But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst...” (Acts 2:4,14,22-23, NKJV)

During his preaching, Apostle Peter made the following statements: “Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst.” Here, it is clear, that Jesus is different from God. He was a Man attested by God through miracles, wonders and signs. Also, the following statement was made by Apostle Peter when he was preaching this time at the temple:

“So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.” (Acts 3:12-13 NKJV)

Filled with Holy Spirit, Apostle Peter declared the Lord Jesus Christ is the “Servant of God.” Thus, the statement of Thomas recorded in John 20:28 did not only contradict the teachings of the Lord Jesus, but also the teachings of the other apostles. This proves that Thomas statement was incorrect, not only he forgotten the teaching of His Master, but also contradicted the Lord Jesus and the other apostles.

Let us not be surprised if Thomas made a mistake while not in the act of preaching. It is not surprising that even the apostles can make mistakes while they are not in the act of preaching. The following proves this contention:

“But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed by the waves, for the wind was contrary. Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out for fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.” (Matthew 14:24-27, NKJV)

Remember that when Thomas made the statement recorded in John 20:28 he was not in the act of preaching and he was from a state of unbelief, thus it is not surprising if he committed mistake.

DID THE LORD JESUS CORRECT THOMAS FROM HIS MISTAKE?

Let us again see what really happened through the four Gospels, not only from the Gospel according to John. Let us start with John 20:19-20:

“Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.” (John 20:19-20, NKJV)

When the disciples were assembled, with the doors locked for the fear of the Jews, Jesus came and told them to be at peace. Then He showed to them His hands and side. What was their reaction? The disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. However, John further narrated that Thomas was not there that time:

“Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ So he said to them, ‘Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.’” (John 20:24-25, NKJV)

When the other disciples told Thomas that they had seen the Lord, Thomas did not believe what they said. He reacted with disbelief and skepticism. He told them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” By this statement, Thomas became identified with skepticism and disbelief. The disciples were gathered again and Thomas was with them at this time:

“And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, ‘Peace to you!’” (John 20:26, NKJV)

The disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Originally, there were twelve apostles. However, Judas committed suicide, thus, when the Bible stated “eleven,” Thomas was with them (Judas was the the one not with them). In John 20:26, Jesus appeared to the “eleven” (Thgomas was with them). This was when Thomas uttered “My Lord and my God”:

“And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, ‘Peace to you!’ Then He said to Thomas, ‘Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.’ And Thomas answered and said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:26-28, NKJV)

Mark also reported this event when Jesus appeared to the “eleven” as they were eating:

“And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe. After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either. Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.” (Mark 16:11-14, NKJV)

Luke also narrated this event when the Lord Jesus appeared to the “eleven”:

“So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, saying, ‘The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!’ And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread. Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, ‘Peace to you.’ But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.” (Luke 24:33-37 NKJV)

Both Mark and Luke reported this event when the Lord Jesus appeared to the “eleven” (Mark 16:13-14 and Luke 24:33-36). Thus, this was also the event reported by John in John 20:26-28, when Jesus appeared with the “eleven” (including Thomas).

Mark’s report was a generalization of the event: the disciples’ unbelief, the Lord appeared to the “twelve,” and Jesus “rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart.”

Luke made a much detailed report that Mark. In Luke’s report, when the Lord Jesus appeared to the “eleven,” they were terrified and frightened. Thus, it was not only Thomas who was terrified and frightened during that event, but even the other disciples.

Think of the situation before Jesus showed Himself to them: the doors were shut when Jesus abruptly stood in their midst and summoned Thomas to come near to Him. What was Thomas' reaction? A reaction of unbelief and amazement. Is this kind of reaction something that is strange or unusual? No, because according to Luke, Thomas was not the only one caught perplexed but also the rest of his companions. Luke reported that when Jesus appeared abruptly in their midst while the “eleven” were gathered together, they were terrified and frightened.

Because the disciples (not only Thomas but all the “eleven”) were caught perplexed (were terrified and frightened), Luke reported that “and supposed they had seen a spirit.” Luke reported that disciples mistook Jesus for a spirit. John on the other hand reported that Thomas called Jesus “My Lord and my God.” Why it is not wrong to conclude that not only Thomas but the other disciples also mistook Jesus as “God”? Because Jesus Himself taught them that God is spirit:

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 NKJV)

Did the Lord Jesus Christ confirm what the disciples thought about Him or He rebuke them? Let us continue our reading of Luke’s report

“Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you." But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." Luke 24:36-39, NKJV

Take note that the Lord Jesus was speaking to the “eleven” (including Thomas); the “eleven” mistook Jesus for a spirit or mistook Him as “God” (thus not only Thomas but the other apostles also committed the mistake that they mistook Jesus as “God”); but Jesus rebuked them.

In John’s report, Jesus summoned Thomas to reach out his finger, to look at His hands, and to reach out his hand to Him (cf. John 20:27), and then Thomas mistakenly said, “My Lord and my God” (cf. John 20:28). In Luke’s report, not only Thomas but all the “eleven” mistook Jesus for a spirit or mistook Him as “God.”

What did Christ do when they mistook Him for a spirit? He showed them His hands and His feet and told them that a spirit has no flesh and bones (cf. Luke 24:38-39). Notice that before He showed His hands and feet, what did Christ tell them? “Why are ye troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts?” (cf. Luke 24:38, KJV). Christ was clearly upbraiding them.
 

Jason0047

Member
Again, you feel the need to use pictures to dress up your belief that is false. If there is one fact the Bible is clear about, it is that Jesus is God.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:7-8).

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).
The Word was made flesh (John 1:14).
The Word is God (John 1:1).

Revelation 19:13
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:16
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


...
 
Last edited:

Jason0047

Member
17 ... Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, (Revelation 1:17-18).

This is the truth.


...
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.

Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18

John 1:1-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Note verse 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi). The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. “and the Word was with God…the Logos has been in communion and communication with God for eternity as well. The verb is the same as the first clause, and the preposition pros (“with”) pictures for us face-to-face communication. The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. We have the same situation in 1.1c.The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. Notice that the term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative, the nature of the Logos is the nature of God, just as the nature of God in 1 John 4:8 was that of love. Now, John does emphasize the term “God” by placing it first in the clause – this is not just a “divine nature” as in something like the angels have – rather, it is truly the nature of Deity that is in view here (hence my translation as “Deity”). Dr. Kenneth Wuest, long time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute rendered the phrase, “And the Word was as to His essence absolute Deity.”

What he wishes to emphasize here is the personal existence of the Logos in some sense of distinction from “God” (i.e., the Father). The Logos is not the Father nor vice-versa – there are two persons under discussion here.

John 1:1 tells us some extremely important things. First, we see that the Logos is eternal, uncreated. Secondly, we see that there are two Divine Persons in view in John’s mind – the Father and the Logos. Thirdly, there is eternal communication and relationship between the Father and the Logos. Finally, we see that the Logos shares the nature of God.

John goes on to gives to Jesus another descriptive name: “The Light”, the “True Light”, the “Light of the world”.

Verse 14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Word did not eternally exist in the form of flesh; rather, at a particular point in time He became flesh. This is the incarnation.

Verse 18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB

He first asserts that no one has “seen God at any time.” Now, the Old Testament tells us that men have indeed seen God in the past – Isaiah saw God on His throne in Isaiah 6; Abraham walked with Yahweh in Genesis 18. So what does John mean? He defines for us that the one he is speaking of here is the Father – that is, no one has seen the Father at any time. OK, then who was it that was seen by Isaiah or by Abraham?

John tells us – the unique God. Here the phrase is monogenes theos. There is a textual variant here. Many manuscripts have monogenes huios (unique Son) – and the KJV follows this tradition. But the strongest reading is “unique God.” How are we to understand this?

The term “monogenes” is used only of Jesus in the Gospel of John. Jesus is here described as the “unique God” – John is not asserting a separate deity from the Father. Rather, this ‘unique God” is the one who is eternally in fellowship with the Father. Even when discussing the “separateness” of the Father and the Son as persons, John is quick to emphasize the unity of the divine Persons in their eternal fellowship together. Here John teaches, again, the eternal and central fact of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The unique God makes the Father known – He “explains’ Him. What we know of the Father we know because of the revelation of the Son. We know what the Father is like because we know what Jesus Is like. Here the Son’s function as the revelator of the Father is clearly set forth, and this is directly in line with the usage of the term Logos in the Prologue. Other New Testament writers use the same theme – for Paul Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” and for the writer of Hebrews Jesus is ‘the express image of His (the Father’s) person…” Both writers (or maybe just one writer if Paul indeed wrote Hebrews) are emphasizing the role of Jesus as the revealer of the Father. In the same way, this answers the above question regarding who it was, in John’s opinion, that was seen of Abraham and Isaiah. We have already had occasion to note that John will directly assert that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in the person of Yahweh (12:39ff), and could it be that this is the explanation for Jesus’ statement in John 8:56? Did Abraham “see the day of Jesus” when he walked with Him by the oaks of Mamre (Gen. 18:1)?

The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses:

If Jesus is The Word. Rev.19:13

And if that same Word is God. Jn.1:1-18

Then Jesus is God.

Special thanks to James R White

So, by the law of identity, we can infer that Jesus and the Father, if they are both God, share the same amount of information.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
1. Jesus IS the visible image of the Invisible God - Colossians 1:15, II Corinthians 4:4...to see Jesus is to see the Invisible God - Mankind was created IN the image of God - Genesis 1:26...Jesus IS the image of God. To see Jesus is to see the Invisible God in the flesh.

Tested the bottom of the list No. 160 and it failed

Clumsy-Dancer-88015.gif


Now let see the first of the list. These are the verses used:

Colossians 1:15 New International Version (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

2 Corinthians 4:4 New International Version (NIV)

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Genesis 1:26 New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

His conclusion: To see Jesus is to see the Invisible God in the flesh

Did God made mankind in his own image?

Genesis 1:27 New International Version (NIV)

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

So what is the logic here?

God is invisible
Jesus is the image of the invisible God
Mankind was created in the image of God
Ergo: We are gods too?
Of course not.


Isn't Jesus the first born of all creation? Colossians 1:15

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Hence he is not God who created all creation but the firstborn over all creation.

So how can the "160 reasons" hold sanity when the top and the bottom were found defective reasons? Read the scriptures, believe the scriptures not someone else's work.
 

Jason0047

Member
“That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;” (1 Timothy 6:14-15).


...
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.

Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18

John 1:1-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Note verse 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi). The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. “and the Word was with God…the Logos has been in communion and communication with God for eternity as well. The verb is the same as the first clause, and the preposition pros (“with”) pictures for us face-to-face communication. The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. We have the same situation in 1.1c.The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. Notice that the term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative, the nature of the Logos is the nature of God, just as the nature of God in 1 John 4:8 was that of love. Now, John does emphasize the term “God” by placing it first in the clause – this is not just a “divine nature” as in something like the angels have – rather, it is truly the nature of Deity that is in view here (hence my translation as “Deity”). Dr. Kenneth Wuest, long time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute rendered the phrase, “And the Word was as to His essence absolute Deity.”

What he wishes to emphasize here is the personal existence of the Logos in some sense of distinction from “God” (i.e., the Father). The Logos is not the Father nor vice-versa – there are two persons under discussion here.

John 1:1 tells us some extremely important things. First, we see that the Logos is eternal, uncreated. Secondly, we see that there are two Divine Persons in view in John’s mind – the Father and the Logos. Thirdly, there is eternal communication and relationship between the Father and the Logos. Finally, we see that the Logos shares the nature of God.

John goes on to gives to Jesus another descriptive name: “The Light”, the “True Light”, the “Light of the world”.

Verse 14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Word did not eternally exist in the form of flesh; rather, at a particular point in time He became flesh. This is the incarnation.

Verse 18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB

He first asserts that no one has “seen God at any time.” Now, the Old Testament tells us that men have indeed seen God in the past – Isaiah saw God on His throne in Isaiah 6; Abraham walked with Yahweh in Genesis 18. So what does John mean? He defines for us that the one he is speaking of here is the Father – that is, no one has seen the Father at any time. OK, then who was it that was seen by Isaiah or by Abraham?

John tells us – the unique God. Here the phrase is monogenes theos. There is a textual variant here. Many manuscripts have monogenes huios (unique Son) – and the KJV follows this tradition. But the strongest reading is “unique God.” How are we to understand this?

The term “monogenes” is used only of Jesus in the Gospel of John. Jesus is here described as the “unique God” – John is not asserting a separate deity from the Father. Rather, this ‘unique God” is the one who is eternally in fellowship with the Father. Even when discussing the “separateness” of the Father and the Son as persons, John is quick to emphasize the unity of the divine Persons in their eternal fellowship together. Here John teaches, again, the eternal and central fact of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The unique God makes the Father known – He “explains’ Him. What we know of the Father we know because of the revelation of the Son. We know what the Father is like because we know what Jesus Is like. Here the Son’s function as the revelator of the Father is clearly set forth, and this is directly in line with the usage of the term Logos in the Prologue. Other New Testament writers use the same theme – for Paul Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” and for the writer of Hebrews Jesus is ‘the express image of His (the Father’s) person…” Both writers (or maybe just one writer if Paul indeed wrote Hebrews) are emphasizing the role of Jesus as the revealer of the Father. In the same way, this answers the above question regarding who it was, in John’s opinion, that was seen of Abraham and Isaiah. We have already had occasion to note that John will directly assert that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in the person of Yahweh (12:39ff), and could it be that this is the explanation for Jesus’ statement in John 8:56? Did Abraham “see the day of Jesus” when he walked with Him by the oaks of Mamre (Gen. 18:1)?

The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses:

If Jesus is The Word. Rev.19:13

And if that same Word is God. Jn.1:1-18

Then Jesus is God.

Special thanks to James R White

Another thing. Your avatar seems to show an engraved image of God. If jesus = God.

Be careful.

Ciao

- viole
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
17 ... Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, (Revelation 1:17-18).
This is the truth.
...

If Jesus is God, this will run contrary to:

1 Timothy 1:17New International Version (NIV)

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

But Jesus is not God because he said I am he that liveth, and was dead on which you quoted Revelation 1:17-18
Another version of the bible is the Expanded Bible

upload_2017-5-29_23-33-55.jpeg

Same verse:

1 Timothy 1:17 Expanded Bible (EXB)

To the ·King who rules forever [eternal King; L King of the ages], ·who will never die [immortal; incorruptible], ·who cannot be seen [invisible], the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The only God - ·who will never die
The Lord Jesus Christ - was dead

That is the big difference between the Lord God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.

Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18

John 1:1-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Note verse 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi). The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. “and the Word was with God…the Logos has been in communion and communication with God for eternity as well. The verb is the same as the first clause, and the preposition pros (“with”) pictures for us face-to-face communication. The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. We have the same situation in 1.1c.The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. Notice that the term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative, the nature of the Logos is the nature of God, just as the nature of God in 1 John 4:8 was that of love. Now, John does emphasize the term “God” by placing it first in the clause – this is not just a “divine nature” as in something like the angels have – rather, it is truly the nature of Deity that is in view here (hence my translation as “Deity”). Dr. Kenneth Wuest, long time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute rendered the phrase, “And the Word was as to His essence absolute Deity.”

What he wishes to emphasize here is the personal existence of the Logos in some sense of distinction from “God” (i.e., the Father). The Logos is not the Father nor vice-versa – there are two persons under discussion here.

John 1:1 tells us some extremely important things. First, we see that the Logos is eternal, uncreated. Secondly, we see that there are two Divine Persons in view in John’s mind – the Father and the Logos. Thirdly, there is eternal communication and relationship between the Father and the Logos. Finally, we see that the Logos shares the nature of God.

John goes on to gives to Jesus another descriptive name: “The Light”, the “True Light”, the “Light of the world”.

Verse 14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Word did not eternally exist in the form of flesh; rather, at a particular point in time He became flesh. This is the incarnation.

Verse 18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB

He first asserts that no one has “seen God at any time.” Now, the Old Testament tells us that men have indeed seen God in the past – Isaiah saw God on His throne in Isaiah 6; Abraham walked with Yahweh in Genesis 18. So what does John mean? He defines for us that the one he is speaking of here is the Father – that is, no one has seen the Father at any time. OK, then who was it that was seen by Isaiah or by Abraham?

John tells us – the unique God. Here the phrase is monogenes theos. There is a textual variant here. Many manuscripts have monogenes huios (unique Son) – and the KJV follows this tradition. But the strongest reading is “unique God.” How are we to understand this?

The term “monogenes” is used only of Jesus in the Gospel of John. Jesus is here described as the “unique God” – John is not asserting a separate deity from the Father. Rather, this ‘unique God” is the one who is eternally in fellowship with the Father. Even when discussing the “separateness” of the Father and the Son as persons, John is quick to emphasize the unity of the divine Persons in their eternal fellowship together. Here John teaches, again, the eternal and central fact of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The unique God makes the Father known – He “explains’ Him. What we know of the Father we know because of the revelation of the Son. We know what the Father is like because we know what Jesus Is like. Here the Son’s function as the revelator of the Father is clearly set forth, and this is directly in line with the usage of the term Logos in the Prologue. Other New Testament writers use the same theme – for Paul Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” and for the writer of Hebrews Jesus is ‘the express image of His (the Father’s) person…” Both writers (or maybe just one writer if Paul indeed wrote Hebrews) are emphasizing the role of Jesus as the revealer of the Father. In the same way, this answers the above question regarding who it was, in John’s opinion, that was seen of Abraham and Isaiah. We have already had occasion to note that John will directly assert that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in the person of Yahweh (12:39ff), and could it be that this is the explanation for Jesus’ statement in John 8:56? Did Abraham “see the day of Jesus” when he walked with Him by the oaks of Mamre (Gen. 18:1)?

The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses:

If Jesus is The Word. Rev.19:13

And if that same Word is God. Jn.1:1-18

Then Jesus is God.

Special thanks to James R White
we're all gods; not excluding Jesus

john 21:15 & colossians 3:11 christ is all and in all
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
“That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;” (1 Timothy 6:14-15).

...
That happens when you have an old obsolete Bible like the KJV.
It's like driving an old car with all the loud noises and clanking. Even that is hard to understand.
tumblr_mcar.gif


Reading the scriptures should be easy and comprehensible.
upload_2017-5-29_23-46-42.jpeg


1 Timothy 6:14-15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

Do what you were commanded to do without fault or blame until the time when our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. God will make that happen at the right time. God is the blessed and only Ruler. He is the King of all kings and the Lord of all lords.

Or some version that even kids would understand
upload_2017-5-29_23-49-59.jpeg


1 Timothy 6:14-15 International Children’s Bible (ICB)

Do the things you were commanded to do. Do them without wrong or blame until the time when our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. God will make that happen at the right time. He is the blessed and only Ruler. He is the King of all kings and the Lord of all lords.
 

Jason0047

Member
“That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;” (1 Timothy 6:14-15).


...

For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward. (Deuteronomy 10:17).


...
 

Jason0047

Member
The KJV was used for hundreds of years before the Modern Translations came onto the scene. So if we were living back in the days where the KJV was the only available Bible, what would be your excuse then?


...
 

Jason0047

Member
If Jesus is God, this will run contrary to:

1 Timothy 1:17New International Version (NIV)

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

But Jesus is not God because he said I am he that liveth, and was dead on which you quoted Revelation 1:17-18
Another version of the bible is the Expanded Bible

View attachment 17768
Same verse:

1 Timothy 1:17 Expanded Bible (EXB)

To the ·King who rules forever [eternal King; L King of the ages], ·who will never die [immortal; incorruptible], ·who cannot be seen [invisible], the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

The only God - ·who will never die
The Lord Jesus Christ - was dead

That is the big difference between the Lord God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

His body died. Not His essence as spirit.


...
 
Last edited:

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
If we are gods, what can we create?
View attachment 17772
Oh, a few grams of soft brown solid and a few liters yellowish liquid everyday?


god created man; so man could recreate love.

be here NOW


3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
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