Jason0047
Member
God is spirit (John 4:24);
And Jesus referred to His body as just a temple (John 2:19-21).
...
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I think you are overstating your claim. Notice that Jesus does not directly declare who he is in this passage. Why not? I think it must be for a reason."After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst, 'Peace be with you'. Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here with your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving but believing'; Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.' John 20:26-29
There is an Apostle (Thomas) who confessed that Jesus is indeed both Lord and God. The other Apostles did not object. Jesus accepted, with no qualification, the title of deity.
WHAT THOMAS UTTERED in John 20:28 should not be regarded as a statement of faith nor be considered as a strong biblical foundation to assert the alleged divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. John 20:28 reads:
“And Thomas answered and said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28 NKJV)
Why it should not be regarded as a statement of faith nor be considered as a strong biblical foundation of the alleged divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ?
THOMAS WAS NOT PREACHING AT THAT MOMENT BUT WAS FROM A STATE OF UNBELIEF
I have already addressed this in my post regarding the Carmen Christi see Philippians 2So, by the law of identity, we can infer that Jesus and the Father, if they are both God, share the same amount of information.
Correct?
Ciao
- viole
I think you are overstating your claim. Notice that Jesus does not directly declare who he is in this passage. Why not? I think it must be for a reason.
You comment that Thomas says "My Lord and my God!" In the very same book "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, ‘''I have said you are 'gods'...''' ? " (John 10:38) John chapter 1 declares straightforwardly that we have power to become sons of God and then in chapter 10 Jesus quotes "You are gods..."
There is another objection to your claim. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is perfected by his death. Its reasonable to ask how he could be the one God and be imperfect at the same time. God is perfect, so what does it mean when it says Jesus was perfected by death.
I think you are overstating your claim. Notice that Jesus does not directly declare who he is in this passage. Why not? I think it must be for a reason.
You comment that Thomas says "My Lord and my God!" In the very same book "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, ‘''I have said you are 'gods'...''' ? " (John 10:38) John chapter 1 declares straightforwardly that we have power to become sons of God and then in chapter 10 Jesus quotes "You are gods..."
There is another objection to your claim. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is perfected by his death. Its reasonable to ask how he could be the one God and be imperfect at the same time. God is perfect, so what does it mean when it says Jesus was perfected by death.
Another thing. Your avatar seems to show an engraved image of God. If jesus = God.
Be careful.
Ciao
- viole
If you research the gospels, you will find authors were not eyewitnesses, they were men who did not live, or had not visited, the holy land, they were men caught up in a religious movement to promote a new religion. As Christianity advanced, NT authors became highly esteemed, or, if you will, they were considered to be saints. Why would God, who had been murdered by men, want to change the story? Humans make mistakes, some through willful acts, so why should God intervene? Most probably, if the true story of Jesus were written, humans would reject it. They want romantic and exciting stories.If Jesus were God, and the Bible completely inspired by God, then why would Jesus be consistently referred to with phrases like "son of God;" "image of God," "Firstborn of [God's] creation," etc? I'd think that Jesus's nature as God would be explicitly stated; instead the Bible described a "son of man." If the authors of the New Testament had believed that Jesus was God himself, surely they would have explicitly said so, or God could have provided some extra divine inspiration at the very least, so that later Christians wouldn't have to conoct contrived explanations from the authors' words to make them say what they didn't.
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.
Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18
John 1:1-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The Witness John
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Note verse 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi). The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. “and the Word was with God…the Logos has been in communion and communication with God for eternity as well. The verb is the same as the first clause, and the preposition pros (“with”) pictures for us face-to-face communication. The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. We have the same situation in 1.1c.The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. Notice that the term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative, the nature of the Logos is the nature of God, just as the nature of God in 1 John 4:8 was that of love. Now, John does emphasize the term “God” by placing it first in the clause – this is not just a “divine nature” as in something like the angels have – rather, it is truly the nature of Deity that is in view here (hence my translation as “Deity”). Dr. Kenneth Wuest, long time professor of Greek at Moody Bible Institute rendered the phrase, “And the Word was as to His essence absolute Deity.”
What he wishes to emphasize here is the personal existence of the Logos in some sense of distinction from “God” (i.e., the Father). The Logos is not the Father nor vice-versa – there are two persons under discussion here.
John 1:1 tells us some extremely important things. First, we see that the Logos is eternal, uncreated. Secondly, we see that there are two Divine Persons in view in John’s mind – the Father and the Logos. Thirdly, there is eternal communication and relationship between the Father and the Logos. Finally, we see that the Logos shares the nature of God.
John goes on to gives to Jesus another descriptive name: “The Light”, the “True Light”, the “Light of the world”.
Verse 14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
The Word did not eternally exist in the form of flesh; rather, at a particular point in time He became flesh. This is the incarnation.
Verse 18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB
He first asserts that no one has “seen God at any time.” Now, the Old Testament tells us that men have indeed seen God in the past – Isaiah saw God on His throne in Isaiah 6; Abraham walked with Yahweh in Genesis 18. So what does John mean? He defines for us that the one he is speaking of here is the Father – that is, no one has seen the Father at any time. OK, then who was it that was seen by Isaiah or by Abraham?
John tells us – the unique God. Here the phrase is monogenes theos. There is a textual variant here. Many manuscripts have monogenes huios (unique Son) – and the KJV follows this tradition. But the strongest reading is “unique God.” How are we to understand this?
The term “monogenes” is used only of Jesus in the Gospel of John. Jesus is here described as the “unique God” – John is not asserting a separate deity from the Father. Rather, this ‘unique God” is the one who is eternally in fellowship with the Father. Even when discussing the “separateness” of the Father and the Son as persons, John is quick to emphasize the unity of the divine Persons in their eternal fellowship together. Here John teaches, again, the eternal and central fact of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The unique God makes the Father known – He “explains’ Him. What we know of the Father we know because of the revelation of the Son. We know what the Father is like because we know what Jesus Is like. Here the Son’s function as the revelator of the Father is clearly set forth, and this is directly in line with the usage of the term Logos in the Prologue. Other New Testament writers use the same theme – for Paul Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” and for the writer of Hebrews Jesus is ‘the express image of His (the Father’s) person…” Both writers (or maybe just one writer if Paul indeed wrote Hebrews) are emphasizing the role of Jesus as the revealer of the Father. In the same way, this answers the above question regarding who it was, in John’s opinion, that was seen of Abraham and Isaiah. We have already had occasion to note that John will directly assert that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in the person of Yahweh (12:39ff), and could it be that this is the explanation for Jesus’ statement in John 8:56? Did Abraham “see the day of Jesus” when he walked with Him by the oaks of Mamre (Gen. 18:1)?
The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses:
If Jesus is The Word. Rev.19:13
And if that same Word is God. Jn.1:1-18
Then Jesus is God.
Special thanks to James R White
There is 10 x more evidence that trinity translations are filled with errors to mislead. Errors put in by Catholicism centuries ago to fit false council teachings.
John 1:1 is error--If a capitol G belongs in the last line, then in simple trinity talk, the 2nd line reads--And God was with God= impossible--there is one God. and at Rev 3:12--simple English trinity talk= God has a God = impossible.
God always was and always will be. Jesus has a mortal mother.
Could you provide such evidence that these teachings are false, and I ask this being a non-Catholic and a non-Christian? Generally speaking, religious beliefs are almost always unfalsifiable.There is 10 x more evidence that trinity translations are filled with errors to mislead. Errors put in by Catholicism centuries ago to fit false council teachings.
Yet Jesus accepts worship.
"Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him." John 9:35-38
Except for the subjects of INC who worship Jesus as only a man, most would agree with Jesus and the other Biblical records that worship is exclusive to the being of God alone.
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I don't know if I should still reply to this. Based on your statements, you quoted Jesus saying he was the Son of Man and we worship Jesus as a Man - isn't that weird - and you still don't know the Son of Man?
Christians nosedive into the dirt when they accept that The Bible is the literal word of God.
The Bible was written by many men. Men. God don't write.
Now, there may be Truth in what some men write, but never, ever, is it the literal word of God.
Understanding this simple concept, The Bible takes on a new dimension. It's not about the words. It's about what inspired the words.
You have to look beyond the words to divine the message.
Jesus was not God. He was a man. He became enlightened. Thus he came to realize his divinity.
This did not make him God, as an unenlightened human could understand it.
It made him God in the same way a drop of water is the ocean.
Men think. They forget their words - like their thoughts - are symbols, not the things they symbolize.
Any man may become God, in the same way a drop of water is the ocean, by learning to not-think.
Yet Jesus accepts worship.
"Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him." John 9:35-38
Jesus is the God-man.
They say in that reference for Heb 5:9 he learns obedience, and that when he obeys to the point of death he finally reaches perfection. They specifically call it the completion of his moral discipline and that through obedience he becomes the author of salvation. I am able to make out very few of the Greek terms, but I understand the gist of what they are saying as most of it is in English.This is explanation makes the best case considering Tota Scriptura: having been perfectly equipped with every qualification for the priestly office by the discipline already described.Expositor's Greek Testament