The Bible declares that Jesus is God

[Rick B]

Jesus says the opposite---John 20:17, Rev 3:12--God does NOT have a God--Jesus does. He is the firstborn of all creation( created first and last direct) all other things created through him--It is he speaking at Prov 8 0 doubt. Telling all how painstaking it was for God to create him direct.

All who choose to believe Catholicism translating over Jesus truths will lose.

I just can't leave this massive misrepresentation go unanswered. The first accepted Roman Catholic Bible was the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in A.D. 400. It wasn't until Gregory 1 proclaimed himself Pontifex Maximus in A.D. 600 that we have the first ruling Pope. This is "technically" the beginning of Roman Catholicism. It was not allowed for the common people to have a Bible in their own language. It wasn't until 1516 that Erasmus finished the first edition of the Greek/Latin Textus Receptus translated from 5 or 6 Greek manuscripts.There came several updated versions afterwards. Over time, employing Textual Criticism, the Critical Text became the standard for our modern "Protestant" translations including the NASB, ESV, and the NIV, and virtually every other modern translation of the English Bible. The C.T. draws from the entirety of ancient Greek manuscripts available. For the New Testament that comes to about 5800 ancient manuscripts. The earliest is a newly discovered fragment of the Gospel of Mark dating to 50-100 C.E - within the lifetime of some Apostles. These ancient manuscripts were not produced by Roman Catholics. Not only that, the Old Testament most certainly was not written by Roman Catholics either - obviously. The fact that there there are many comparable texts between the modern Douay Rheims R.C. Bible and modern Protestant Bibles is irrelevant. The same can be said of the N.W.T.. The Apocrypha is the major issue. So your claim that we Protestants have a Bible derived from Roman Catholicism is erroneous/fallacious and needs to be recanted.

 

[kjw47]

I just can't leave this massive misrepresentation go unanswered. The first accepted Roman Catholic Bible was the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in A.D. 400. It wasn't until Gregory 1 proclaimed himself Pontifex Maximus in A.D. 600 that we have the first ruling Pope. This is "technically" the beginning of Roman Catholicism. It was not allowed for the common people to have a Bible in their own language. It wasn't until 1516 that Erasmus finished the first edition of the Greek/Latin Textus Receptus translated from 5 or 6 Greek manuscripts.There came several updated versions afterwards. Over time, employing Textual Criticism, the Critical Text became the standard for our modern "Protestant" translations including the NASB, ESV, and the NIV, and virtually every other modern translation of the English Bible. The C.T. draws from the entirety of ancient Greek manuscripts available. For the New Testament that comes to about 5800 ancient manuscripts. The earliest is a newly discovered fragment of the Gospel of Mark dating to 50-100 C.E - within the lifetime of some Apostles. These ancient manuscripts were not produced by Roman Catholics. Not only that, the Old Testament most certainly was not written by Roman Catholics either - obviously. The fact that there there are many comparable texts between the modern Douay Rheims R.C. Bible and modern Protestant Bibles is irrelevant. The same can be said of the N.W.T.. The Apocrypha is the major issue. So your claim that we Protestants have a Bible derived from Roman Catholicism is erroneous/fallacious and needs to be recanted.

Jesus taught---Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance from God---The only way one can do that is by reading the bible daily over a lifetime--Satans will = do not let them read the bible daily--so its easy to see Catholicism did satans will. The crusades, inquisitions, witchhunts, etc all satans will--as well as killing the members of your own religion( on allied side) for Adolf Hitler--Catholicism is owned and operated by satan. and all of its trinity branches= 100 % fact of life.
Yes they altered translation to fit false council teachings= 100% fact of life.
The world had better take a step back and take a better look.

 

[kjw47]

The Bible declares that Jesus is God

References to Christ as the Son of God has resulted in the false impression that He was created by God at a later date, and therefore a separate, subordinate deity.

This was the central issue that necessitated the Ecumenical First Council of Nicaea of 325, whereby "Arianism" was deemed a heresy and the Trinity reaffirmed!

You better reread the council of Nicea--no trinity was taught. It was added later,

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Jesus says the opposite---John 20:17, Rev 3:12--God does NOT have a God--Jesus does. He is the firstborn of all creation( created first and last direct) all other things created through him--It is he speaking at Prov 8 0 doubt. Telling all how painstaking it was for God to create him direct.

It was Michael. He is the being speaking there, He came to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal.

Can you see how confused you are? First you said, it was Jesus speaking at Prov. 8, now you're saying it was Michael. Which one was it?

You said it was Jesus Who was the firstborn of all creation, but now you say it was Michael who came to earth and was named Jesus. If it was Michael in heaven, then Jesus wasn't the firstborn, it was Michael.

 

[oldbadger]

.......................The Witness John.....................

Nah..... Stop you there.

John was no witness, he wrote G-John circa 100-120AD . He had absolutely no intimate knowledge of Jesus or his mission at all, and didn't even know the correct timeline of events.

He certainly wasn't Jochanan BarZebedee.... would have been about 90 years old, and I don't expect that the average life span of a Galilean boatman was much more than about 50 years.

If you want the most probable account, read G-Mark, is my suggestion. Yeshua BarYosef was a man who picked up Jochanan the Immerser's mission after his arrest but it failed 11-12 months later in Jerusalem.

 

[Rick B]

The bible clearly shows your error( false reasonings)

There is -ONE- flock under Jesus--the bible breaks them into two different groups, yet one flock--The little flock( Luke 12:32)--these are the anointed, the bride of Christ, the 144,000--( Rev 14:3) only these are bought from the earth to heaven, to rule as kings and priests on thrones beside Jesus. They will judge as well, even the fallen angels.
The great multitude, who stand before the throne, on earth( new earth= Gods kingdom rule)Daniel 2:44)
Jesus gave these this promise--Matthew 5:5--Blessed( happy) are the meek, for they will inherit the EARTH. as well- the Psalmist knew that fact-Psalm 37:9-11,29)

This is the reality of what every bible teaches--blind guides cannot see it. They get paid to teach--dogma.

You not only grossly misrepresent Protestantism and the doctrine of the Trinity, you cannot even, once again, accurately represent what is written in your own NWT.

Revelation 7: 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed+ the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”+4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:+5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;out of the tribe of Reuʹben 12,000;out of the tribe of Gad 12,000; 6 out of the tribe of Ashʹer 12,000;out of the tribe of Naphʹta·li 12,000;out of the tribe of Ma·nasʹseh+ 12,000; 7 out of the tribe of Simʹe·on 12,000;out of the tribe of Leʹvi 12,000;out of the tribe of Isʹsa·char 12,000; 8 out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000;out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed.9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+

How many were sealed?
the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed

Who were they?
out of every tribe of the sons of Israel
They were definitely Jews not JW's

Next you state:The great multitude, who stand before the throne, on earth( new earth= Gods kingdom rule)Daniel 2:44)
But even your own NWT says:

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders+ and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Let the praise and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength be to our God forever and ever.+ Amen.”

13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+ 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.+ 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat,+ 17 because the Lamb,+ who is in the midst* of the throne, will shepherd them+ and will guide them to springs* of waters of life.+And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”+

The One seated on the throne is God.
Where is God's throne?

Rev. 4 After this I saw, and look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard speaking with me was like a trumpet, saying: “Come up here, and I will show you the things that must take place.” 2 After this I immediately came to be in the power of the spirit, and look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and someone was seated on the throne.+ 3 And the One seated had the appearance of a jasper stone+ and a sardius stone,* and all around the throne was a rainbow like an emerald in appearance.+

1 Kings 22:19 Mi·caiʹah then said: “Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne+ and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left.+

God is seated on His throne in heaven. Jesus is in the midst of that throne. Surrounded by a great multitude that no man can number.

So your assertion that the number is 144,000 is false according to your own translation. As well as the great multitude being on earth.

Once again you fail in your attempt to defend your own sect because of the ignorance of what your own bible itself states.

 

[Rick B]

Nah..... Stop you there.

John was no witness, he wrote G-John circa 100-120AD . He had absolutely no intimate knowledge of Jesus or his mission at all, and didn't even know the correct timeline of events.

He certainly wasn't Jochanan BarZebedee.... would have been about 90 years old, and I don't expect that the average life span of a Galilean boatman was much more than about 50 years.

If you want the most probable account, read G-Mark, is my suggestion. Yeshua BarYosef was a man who picked up Jochanan the Immerser's mission after his arrest but it failed 11-12 months later in Jerusalem.

Would you expect Methuselah, the eighth from Adam, to live to be 969 years old? Or Noah, a farmer turned shipbuilder, to live to be 930 years old? Perhaps you don't quite have it figured out yet.

 

[garden47]

You better reread the council of Nicea--no trinity was taught. It was added later,

Trinity

The council of Nicaea dealt primarily with the issue of the deity of Christ. Over a century earlier the term "Trinity" (Τριάς in Greek; trinitas in Latin) was used in the writings of Origen (185–254) and Tertullian (160–220), and a general notion of a "divine three", in some sense, was expressed in the second century writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr.

In Nicaea, questions regarding the Holy Spirit were left largely unaddressed until after the relationship between the Father and the Son was settled around the year 362. So the doctrine in a more full-fledged form was not formulated until the Council of Constantinople in 360 AD, and a final form formulated in 381 AD, primarily crafted by Gregory of Nyssa.

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia
********************************************************************************
The concept of the "divine three"/Trinity was already a "work in progress" in the early Christian writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, Justin the Martyr, Origen and Tertullian - all prior to the Council of Nicaea of 325 AD.

This progression in Church doctrine was interrupted by the Arian Controversy, first expressed by Arius (AD 256-336) of Alexandria, Egypt who contended that the Son of God, the second of the three pillars of the Trinity, had not always existed but was "begotten" from God the Father.

Although the Council of Nicaea (325) did not address the third pillar of the Trinity directly, it was imperative that the "eternal vs begotten issue" concerning the Son of God be addressed before the doctrine of the Trinity could be resolved.

Once the eternal nature of the Son of God was reaffirmed, the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized by the Council of Constantine (360) and finalized by Gregory of Nyssa (381).

 

[oldbadger]

Would you expect Methuselah, the eighth from Adam, to live to be 969 years old? Or Noah, a farmer turned shipbuilder, to live to be 930 years old? Perhaps you don't quite have it figured out yet.

Since you mention Genesis,do you do believe that Jesus created heavens and Earth?

Noah's age proves that John BarZebedee lived to great age? Hmmmm.

But if you believe G-John then you probably don't pay too much attention to G-Mark? Jesus was just an amazing man in G-Mark, until somebody added the last verses!

Really, the idea that your God Jesus deliberately, intentionally, maliciously, killed every living creature in the Whole World (save for a few pairs) with a deluge of water is most sad.

And your God Jesus must have burned, maimed, slain, executed and committed genocide so many times! Do you think that Jesus was the Cruel, Jealous, Envious killer of the Old Testament? I think I prefer the Jesus of love and understanding, myself.

 

[Rick B]

Since you mention Genesis,do you do believe that Jesus created heavens and Earth?

Noah's age proves that John BarZebedee lived to great age? Hmmmm.

But if you believe G-John then you probably don't pay too much attention to G-Mark? Jesus was just an amazing man in G-Mark, until somebody added the last verses!

"Since you mention Genesis, do you believe that Jesus created heavens and earth?"
Yes.

"Noah's age proves that John BarZebedee lived to great age? Hmmmm."
There was no attempt on my part to "prove" this leading/strawman question of yours. Any unbiased reader can see that what I presented was an example that different men lived and died at different, sometimes very long, years of age and that your "expectation" was simply a subjective, unjustified, opinion.

"But if you believe G-John then you probably don't pay too much attention to G-Mark? Jesus was just an amazing man in G-Mark, until somebody added the last verses!"
Your presupposition regarding my interest in Mark is incorrect. I have read the New Testament as many times as the years I've been alive.
Your assertion that Mark regarded Jesus as "just an amazing man" is an unwarranted allegation.

Mark calls Jesus the Son of God.

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God” (1:1).

John the Baptist applies Isaiah 40:3 (which is about Yahweh) to Jesus.
“. . . the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight’” (1:3).

God the Father calls Jesus His beloved Son.
“In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased’” (1:9-11).

The unclean spirits recognize Jesus as the Holy One of God, who has the power to destroy them.
“And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, ‘What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God’”(1:23-24).

Jesus is able to forgive sins committed against God.
“And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven’” (2:5).

Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man of Daniel 7, who is the Lord of the Sabbath.
“And he said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath’” (2:27-28).

Demons fall down before Jesus and recognize Him as the Son of God.
“And whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, ‘You are the Son of God’” (3:11).

Again, a demon possessed man recognizes Jesus’ authority and power.
“And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him. And crying out with a loud voice, he said, ‘What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me’” (5:6-7).

Jesus has the authority to change God’s law.
“And he said to them, ‘Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?’ (Thus he declared all foods clean)” (7:18-19).

Jesus called people not to be ashamed of Him, but rather to give their lives for Him.
“And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, ‘If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. . . . For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels’” (8:34-38).

Jesus is called the Father’s beloved Son, not one son among many sons.
“And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, ‘This is my beloved Son; listen to him’” (9:7).

Jesus asks the rich young ruler if he realizes the implications of calling Him good.
“And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, ‘Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone’” (10:17-18).

The elect people of God are called Jesus’ elect people.
“And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven” (13:26-27).

Jesus’ words are put at the same level as God’s words.
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away” (13:31).

Jesus places Himself above men and angels in His relationship to the Father.
“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (13:32).

Jesus identifies Himself as the Son of Man in Daniel 7:13-14.
“But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ And the high priest tore his garments and said, ‘What further witnesses do we need? You have heard his blasphemy’” (14:61-64).

So, does the gospel of Mark teach the deity of Christ? Most definitely yes, it does.

It appears that you wish to pick and choose which Scriptures you like and which you don't. But the orthodox Christian faith regards all the 66 Books of the Bible, in their entirety, as equally inspired.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is [a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
a. breathed-out

 

[Rick B]

Really, the idea that your God Jesus deliberately, intentionally, maliciously, killed every living creature in the Whole World (save for a few pairs) with a deluge of water is most sad.

And your God Jesus must have burned, maimed, slain, executed and committed genocide so many times! Do you think that Jesus was the Cruel, Jealous, Envious killer of the Old Testament? I think I prefer the Jesus of love and understanding, myself.

Your accusation that I have the "idea" that the Lord Jesus Christ was a malicious, Cruel, Envious killer, committing genocide, implying that He acted arbitrarily because of some unholy, evil, capricious, malevolent impulse is not only unjustified animus but demonstrates a vast ignorance of Biblical discernment. Add to that your errant belief that we have an evil YHWH in the Old Testament and a nice YHWH in the New, while not being novel, is nevertheless antithetical to informed theology and Biblical continuity.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Rebellious mankind does not like the fact that it is God who is on the throne and the judgment seat and not himself.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The Jesus in the New Testament preached more on Hell and the everlasting fire than He did on Heaven.

So you see, Jesus is not only the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world of the elect but also the Lion of the tribe of Judah. We must obtain our Christian worldview objectively, from the entirety of the full scope of Scripture, not subjectively cherry-pick our preferences. Subjectivism will only lead to skepticism - "as resting on an entirely intuitive and pre-theoretical understanding of our epistemic concepts. In this sense it has the form of a paradox - a series of wholly plausible and intuitive claims that, collectively, lead to an intellectually devastating conclusion. Recent discussion of skepticism also treats the problem as having this paradoxical form, though the epistemic focus of the discussion is now not so much the lack of grounds for belief which counter the skeptic's grounds against belief, or the lack of certainty, but rather the lack of knowledge. Contemporary discussions of skepticism have thus tended to make the radical epistemological claim that we fail to know (hardly) anything." IEP

The Holy Word of God does not come to us craving acceptance at the bar of human reason. Instead, it demands that human reason surrender itself to its divine authority and receive unmurmurinly its inerrant contents. A. W. Pink.

 

[kjw47]

Can you see how confused you are? First you said, it was Jesus speaking at Prov. 8, now you're saying it was Michael. Which one was it?

You said it was Jesus Who was the firstborn of all creation, but now you say it was Michael who came to earth and was named Jesus. If it was Michael in heaven, then Jesus wasn't the firstborn, it was Michael.

Michael is Jesus--its your confusion that wont let you out of your darkness.

 

[kjw47]

You not only grossly misrepresent Protestantism and the doctrine of the Trinity, you cannot even, once again, accurately represent what is written in your own NWT.

Revelation 7: 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed+ the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”+4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:+5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;out of the tribe of Reuʹben 12,000;out of the tribe of Gad 12,000; 6 out of the tribe of Ashʹer 12,000;out of the tribe of Naphʹta·li 12,000;out of the tribe of Ma·nasʹseh+ 12,000; 7 out of the tribe of Simʹe·on 12,000;out of the tribe of Leʹvi 12,000;out of the tribe of Isʹsa·char 12,000; 8 out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000;out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed.9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+

How many were sealed?
the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed

Who were they?
out of every tribe of the sons of Israel
They were definitely Jews not JW's

Next you state:The great multitude, who stand before the throne, on earth( new earth= Gods kingdom rule)Daniel 2:44)
But even your own NWT says:

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders+ and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Let the praise and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength be to our God forever and ever.+ Amen.”

13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+ 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.+ 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat,+ 17 because the Lamb,+ who is in the midst* of the throne, will shepherd them+ and will guide them to springs* of waters of life.+And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”+

The One seated on the throne is God.
Where is God's throne?

Rev. 4 After this I saw, and look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard speaking with me was like a trumpet, saying: “Come up here, and I will show you the things that must take place.” 2 After this I immediately came to be in the power of the spirit, and look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and someone was seated on the throne.+ 3 And the One seated had the appearance of a jasper stone+ and a sardius stone,* and all around the throne was a rainbow like an emerald in appearance.+

1 Kings 22:19 Mi·caiʹah then said: “Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne+ and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left.+

God is seated on His throne in heaven. Jesus is in the midst of that throne. Surrounded by a great multitude that no man can number.

So your assertion that the number is 144,000 is false according to your own translation. As well as the great multitude being on earth.

Once again you fail in your attempt to defend your own sect because of the ignorance of what your own bible itself states.

Your post is pure darkness because your teachers don't know what the bible teaches

100% fact of Reality--When Israelites sent Jesus to his death--the renting of the banner at that moment was symbolic for Israel being cut off of being Gods chosen--Matt 23:37-39 is clear on that--they outright refuse to this day to do verse 39--they are not the ones mentioned in revelation. John had 0 clue who would be Gods chosen or what the religion would be called--he used the term--Israel-symbolically but meant 100% Gods chosen--it is not literal Israel it is spiritual Israel. Literal Israel will NEVER do verse 39


That does not say the great multitude are the ones from earth--Gods armies are a great multitude of angels.

 

[kjw47]

Trinity

The council of Nicaea dealt primarily with the issue of the deity of Christ. Over a century earlier the term "Trinity" (Τριάς in Greek; trinitas in Latin) was used in the writings of Origen (185–254) and Tertullian (160–220), and a general notion of a "divine three", in some sense, was expressed in the second century writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr.

In Nicaea, questions regarding the Holy Spirit were left largely unaddressed until after the relationship between the Father and the Son was settled around the year 362. So the doctrine in a more full-fledged form was not formulated until the Council of Constantinople in 360 AD, and a final form formulated in 381 AD, primarily crafted by Gregory of Nyssa.

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia
********************************************************************************
The concept of the "divine three"/Trinity was already a "work in progress" in the early Christian writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, Justin the Martyr, Origen and Tertullian - all prior to the Council of Nicaea of 325 AD.

This progression in Church doctrine was interrupted by the Arian Controversy, first expressed by Arius (AD 256-336) of Alexandria, Egypt who contended that the Son of God, the second of the three pillars of the Trinity, had not always existed but was "begotten" from God the Father.

Although the Council of Nicaea (325) did not address the third pillar of the Trinity directly, it was imperative that the "eternal vs begotten issue" concerning the Son of God be addressed before the doctrine of the Trinity could be resolved.

Once the eternal nature of the Son of God was reaffirmed, the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized by the Council of Constantine (360) and finalized by Gregory of Nyssa (381).

The 33,000 trinity based religions = a house divided will not stand-Mark 3:24-26--Jesus started one single religion( 1Cor 1:10)--not the one that came out of Rome and twisted it all to any one who listens demise, and all of its branches.
Catholicism cannot even understand simple bible milk let alone the hidden meat.
example--- The bible condemns any mortal being called--Father in a spiritual teacher sense--not as a Dad. Yet they outright refuse to correct that error, not to mention the bible condemns the usage of statues, icons and graven images--every catholic churches aand homes are filled with all 3.
Catholicism = 2Thess 2:3 and all her branches.

 

[Rick B]

Michael is Jesus--its your confusion that wont let you out of your darkness.

I have produced all Scriptural references of Michael the archangel. Not one implies any equating him with Jesus. Your belief and assertion is debunked. The fact that you avoid interacting with any of those texts explicitly testifies to the fact that you know it cannot be justified and so you just pretend that you weren't refuted and repeat the same implanted errors.

 

[Rick B]

Your post is pure darkness because your teachers don't know what the bible teaches

100% fact of Reality--When Israelites sent Jesus to his death--the renting of the banner at that moment was symbolic for Israel being cut off of being Gods chosen--Matt 23:37-39 is clear on that--they outright refuse to this day to do verse 39--they are not the ones mentioned in revelation. John had 0 clue who would be Gods chosen or what the religion would be called--he used the term--Israel-symbolically but meant 100% Gods chosen--it is not literal Israel it is spiritual Israel. Literal Israel will NEVER do verse 39


That does not say the great multitude are the ones from earth--Gods armies are a great multitude of angels.

You can't even see what your translation says in black and white.

We really don't have to address you at all. Just keep on writing what is in your mind.

 

[kjw47]

I have produced all Scriptural references of Michael the archangel. Not one implies any equating him with Jesus. Your belief and assertion is debunked. The fact that you avoid interacting with any of those texts explicitly testifies to the fact that you know it cannot be justified and so you just pretend that you weren't refuted and repeat the same implanted errors.

Rev 6--the first ride of the white horse proves it 100%---Michael took that ride--but see--he receives his crown--only Jesus is getting the crown--can you reason soundly? Only Jesus is Gods appointed king( Dan 7:13-15) and since the bible is clear that God is king of eternity, Jesus would already be king if he were God. But he isn't--thus had to be appointed and then hand it back to his God and Father, and subject himself-( 1Cor 15:24-28)---Can you reason soundly? your teachers cannot.

 

[Rick B]

Rev 6--the first ride of the white horse proves it 100%---Michael took that ride--but see--he receives his crown--only Jesus is getting the crown--can you reason soundly? Only Jesus is Gods appointed king( Dan 7:13-15) and since the bible is clear that God is king of eternity, Jesus would already be king if he were God. But he isn't--thus had to be appointed and then hand it back to his God and Father, and subject himself-( 1Cor 15:24-28)---Can you reason soundly? your teachers cannot.

Exegete the texts if you are able. Show us that what is in those texts, including the surrounding context, without importing your presuppositions into them, that they teach your doctrine that Jesus is Michael the archangel.

 

[kjw47]

Exegete the texts if you are able. Show us that what is in those texts, including the surrounding context, without importing your presuppositions into them, that they teach your doctrine that Jesus is Michael the archangel.

Rev 6--The first ride of the white horse ( righteous war) in revelation. There are only 2 rides, the war in heaven, and Har-mageddon--The first rides time period is before the 2nd ride. Har- mageddon has not occurred yet, making the first ride--the war in heaven--Michael battled satan and his angels and defeated them. Cast them to the earth--Satan came as a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time is short--ww1--hearts filled with the spirit of antichrist, slaughtering one another on the orders of wicked men. Millions dead our human brothers. The other 3 riders rode as well--After ww1--millions upon millions died all over the earth from the filth of the slaughter, diseases, starvation, etc--they still ride. The --FACT-- at Rev 6--He receives his crown--only Jesus is getting the crown. Michael got the crown--it proves Michael is Jesus.
And the fact it is Michael( Jesus) speaking at Proverbs 8--Gods master worker-- All other things created through) Michael--Jesus)--he clearly shows there how painstaking it was for God to create him directly. The firstborn of all creation( Coll 1:15) this is truth.
God did not come to the earth as a mortal, Michael did. Dan 12:1)

 

[oldbadger]

Your accusation that I have the "idea" that the Lord Jesus Christ was a malicious, Cruel, Envious killer, committing genocide, implying that He acted arbitrarily because of some unholy, evil, capricious, malevolent impulse is not only unjustified animus but demonstrates a vast ignorance of Biblical discernment.

By Biblical discernment I think you mean your own amazing constructions.

If Jesus was/is God then he committed every act of killing, drowning, torturing, stoning, envy and jealousy as recorded.

But even so, the Jesus of the New Testament was an insurrectionist and rebel, a supporter of slavery, a follower of the whip and sword, and the Jesus that will return will return with sharp double edged sword flicking from mouth.

Imagine that, the divine words of God as written by his ordained prophets and apostles, advocating and supporting slavery.

Is the above your God? As written about in the bible?

You clearly have a differing picture of Jesus to the amazing, loving, understanding man that I have studied.