The Bible - Why Trust It

[nPeace]

If you dont trust god, you wont know the difference.


If its the true god, I assume he'd speak in a way youd tell the diference.

Really? How would you know the difference?
Will he say to you this is how I speak. So when you hear this, know it's me? How would you know that's not a deceiver deceiving you?

We could. If my aunt talked ot me directly, though she has passed on, I'd listen to her first not whats writen about her. Would that be weird if she were here today, Id talk to her through a book about her.

You already know your aunt's voice. Nevertheless, someone can perfectly impersonate her - so you'll need some kind of secret code which no one else knows.

Let me ask. If god syas the same thing in speach to moses adn in writing to the apostles, why would yout hink now you could be fooled if he spoke to you, when moses was not fooled and to him, gods written message was the same as the oral dictations of it.

If god said the same thing by talking to you, what makes his written dictations more reliable than hearing it first hand?

All of the Israelites had evidence of God's presence in miracles directly. The apostles had Jesus, and his works, and teachings.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Really? How would you know the difference?
Will he say to you this is how I speak. So when you hear this, know it's me? How would you know that's not a deceiver deceiving you?

But he's god?? Unlike Joe Smoe, Id assume with his ability you would know its him without writing a word through others.

You already know your aunt's voice. Nevertheless, someone can perfectly impersonate her - so you'll need some kind of secret code which no one else knows.

No. Unless I never had a relationship with my aunt (if uou never had a relationsihp with god), I wouldnt need to double check whether its her by looking at her memoir. Its told by the same person. In the case of god, Id highly assume because he has a relationship wth you (right?) you two can communicate much better than my aunt to me.

All of the Israelites had evidence of God's presence in miracles directly. The apostles had Jesus, and his works, and teachings.

And you have god? What happened only in the last two thousand years miracles stopped and gods voice became idolized in wrting?

It wasnt as if the Isrealites and Jesus were around before time begin. They were flesh and blood.

 

[blü 2]

I suppose if someone handed you a map, and told you x marks the spot to a hidden treasure worth a lifetime of luxury - you'd have to imagine it... but you'd never see or get, or know if the treasure is there, if you didn't follow the map and start digging.

But as I said, I have no idea what a real god is. Whereas I could identify a treasure if I found a real one.

How could we tell whether a real candidate is god or not? What's the test?

Did you leave out events and timing on purpose?

I said any ancient document should be examined to determine when and where and why (&c) it was written, and how credible its claims and reports are, and how many can be independently verified. How does that omit events and timing?

Well I am no god, so I don't consider my mind above the limits of mortals and their machines, but the day man knows everything, is the day I'll take your words seriously.

And meanwhile, what? You'll look for what you like, not for what's true in reality?

 

[nPeace]

But he's god?? Unlike Joe Smoe, Id assume with his ability you would know its him without writing a word through others.

I think you are missing something here.
I am not talking about being able to tell the difference between God and man. I am talking about the being able to tell the difference between gods - supernatural beings.
Do you have in mind that there is only one such being, and that there are not millions - some good, some bad, some looking to deceive, and very good at doing so.
You seem to have been missing my point.

No. Unless I never had a relationship with my aunt (if uou never had a relationsihp with god), I wouldnt need to double check whether its her by looking at her memoir. Its told by the same person. In the case of god, Id highly assume because he has a relationship wth you (right?) you two can communicate much better than my aunt to me.

Yup. You definitely are missing my point.

And you have god? What happened only in the last two thousand years miracles stopped and gods voice became idolized in wrting?

It wasnt as if the Isrealites and Jesus were around before time begin. They were flesh and blood.

Do you see direct miracles - like the sea end rivers parting?

 

[sojourner]

Yes, I find even Scripture directs us to pray ( talk ) with God directly. No middle man needed to pray to address God.
We just go to God through Jesus

Wait... you just contradicted yourself. “No ‘middle man’ needed...” “just ‘go through’ Jesus.” If you “go through” Jesus, that makes Jesus a ... “middle man.”

 

[nPeace]

But as I said, I have no idea what a real god is. Whereas I could identify a treasure if I found a real one.

How could we tell whether a real candidate is god or not? What's the test?

Okay then. Me too. Faith. Not the one skeptics talk about. This one - Hebrews 11:1

I said any ancient document should be examined to determine when and where and why (&c) it was written, and how credible its claims and reports are, and how many can be independently verified. How does that omit events and timing?

Indeed it has been - and verified.

And meanwhile, what? You'll look for what you like, not for what's true in reality?

You are saying that you know what's true in reality? How?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

am not talking about being able to tell the difference between God and man. I am talking about the being able to tell the difference between gods - supernatural beings.

If god spoke with you, why would you question if its the real god but then dont question the same god you read abuot in a book?

There could be other gods, but Im saying because god is, well, god do you feel you can get the real god mixed up with other gods?

Do you see direct miracles - like the sea end rivers parting?

Thats why I wonder how god is god because he is no different in saying he exist as saying the rivers and part the sea. But my point is, if god is god, Im sure because he has the ability, he can distinguish his voice from other gods.

If gods vioce can be distinguished in writing, why wouldnt that same god talk to you by voice? Why is written more accurate than spoken-in gods view?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And...the ashes are parishable. The relationship is between the person (and god) not the earthly things about then. The ashes are my aunts body but, like all of us, we die.
So, building a relationship with god rids the attachment to scripture. When god is all thats left, scripture is obstolete

Yes, like ashes I find paper is perishable.
People over thousands of years have tried to ban, burn or otherwise destroy Scripture.
The Bible has enemies from both without and within.
False clergy ( within) try to fool with Scripture. Some political ( without ) have tried to rid the Earth of Scripture.
People were even burned alive if caught with even a page of Scripture, but No one, nor anything can get rid of Scripture even though it is written on perishable paper.

Since Adam's downfall, like Adam, we all die.
The foremost work of the devil is: death.
Adam passed down death to us and that is why we die.
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us.
That is where I find Jesus enters into the picture because Jesus will undo 'enemy death' for mankind.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and rid the Earth ( earthly things ) of 'enemy death' as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.
So, I find that besides God, His Holy Scripture will be left and never be obsolete.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Wait... you just contradicted yourself. “No ‘middle man’ needed...” “just ‘go through’ Jesus.” If you “go through” Jesus, that makes Jesus a ... “middle man.”

I find 1 Timothy 2:5 says there is 'one' God and 'one' mediator between God and us, meaning Jesus.
That does Not mean we direct prayers to Jesus, but only pray to his God. Our Father which art in heaven......
We don't need anyone (a go between) to address God, but since God provided Jesus as ransom for us we ask God for everything through Jesus' name. In Jesus' name, Amen.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. How do you know it's the true God speaking, and not a god who deceives?
2. I think we can verify if the writings are true by doing what this verse says
1 John 4:1 . . .do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, . . .

The ^ above ^ reminds me about the people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 because daily they searched or researched the Scripture to see if what they were learning, what they were hearing, was really found in Scripture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, like ashes I find paper is perishable.
People over thousands of years have tried to ban, burn or otherwise destroy Scripture.
The Bible has enemies from both without and within.
False clergy ( within) try to fool with Scripture. Some political ( without ) have tried to rid the Earth of Scripture.
People were even burned alive if caught with even a page of Scripture, but No one, nor anything can get rid of Scripture even though it is written on perishable paper.

Since Adam's downfall, like Adam, we all die.
The foremost work of the devil is: death.
Adam passed down death to us and that is why we die.
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us.
That is where I find Jesus enters into the picture because Jesus will undo 'enemy death' for mankind.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and rid the Earth ( earthly things ) of 'enemy death' as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.
So, I find that besides God, His Holy Scripture will be left and never be obsolete.

Its just because its so popular, important, and well protected that believers feel they are the victim of their sacred text being distroyed (they are highly protective as if holding on to the history somehow holds on to christ)

But thats not how history works. History changes and adapts. We lose one pieces of information and learn others. Preservation is important but it doesnt mean that, if someone lossed the letters of Columbus, wed never know anymore what he wrote.

Scripture ideally would still exist even if the last of the people and books written about it poofed (which wlll happen). You can distroy whats written and forget whats said, but you cant erase history-and that means if jesus never existed or the gospels were not inspired-that cant be changed.

Scripture can be baned, burned, and distroyed. History cannot. Scripture can. Idols can be distroyed (say the hold calf), the history of it cannot (if it ideally happen, its there regardles if we kept record of it)

Everything dies. Everything.

The best scripture on this topic is when jesus says: You look at scrpure as if it has eternal life. Even scripture speaks on my behalf. (John 5:39)

I honestly feel you (all) have your prorities wrong. Thats my opinion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Any good story teller will lace their stories with fact to make the story sound more believable. It's a technique used just as much 2 or 3 thousand years ago as it is today.

I find Jesus ' laced ', so to speak, his teachings by weaving a tapestry picture of biblical teachings together for us.
The ' facts ' Jesus used were ALL based on the old Hebrew Scriptures explaining them for us.
In other words, Jesus used logical reasoning on the historical Hebrew Scriptures teaching fulfillment of them.
For example: God promised father Abraham that ALL families and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed.
In the Revelation which Jesus gave to John is that ALL nations of Earth will be blessed with the benefit of healing.
Whether a person chooses to believe the teachings of Christ is a personal matter, but the threads of the Bible are closely sewn together from Genesis (paradise lost) to Revelation (paradise regained - Revelation 22:2)

 

[blü 2]

Okay then. Me too. Faith. Not the one skeptics talk about. This one - Hebrews 11:1


Indeed it has been - and verified.


You are saying that you know what's true in reality? How?

 

[blü 2]

Faith. [...] This one - Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Faith regarding what, exactly? Something real, something with objective existence? Then just show it to us.

The only alternative is something imaginary, and that fits Paul's description exactly. While I can enjoy imaginary things well enough, it's good to keep their status in mind.

Indeed it has been - and verified.

Parts have been verified. Parts are simply story. Parts remain in substantial doubt, and anything with a miracle in it is self-evidently a mis-report at best. Was there an historical Moses? Probably not. Was there an historical Jesus? Possibly. Possibly not.

You are saying that you know what's true in reality? How?

There are no absolute truths, because our conclusions are shaped by empiricism and induction, hence can never be shown to be complete. But yes, I have sensory information about the world external to me, and evolution-formed instincts in reacting to it, and education, and experience; and in a wide variety of circumstances I can make verifiably accurate statements about reality. In other cases I can back statements about reality with evidence-based argument provided by others.

And you think you can too, or we wouldn't be on RF at all, let alone having an interesting conversation.

 

[whirlingmerc]

And if one tests the Bible and the results contradict it?

You take the Bible in ensemble. One part informs the other...

Case in point A side by side apparent contradiction to make you think
Proverbs 26:4-5
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

you don't stoop to his level
you correct him with love and help him see the error of his way

 

[Subduction Zone]

You take the Bible in ensemble. One part informs the other...

Case in point A side by side apparent contradiction to make you think
Proverbs 26:4-5
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

you don't stoop to his level
you correct him with love and help him see the error of his way

Not an answer to my question. And your choice of scripture was extremely ironic.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Not an answer to my question. And your choice of scripture was extremely ironic.

I feel the same way

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Everything dies. Everything.
The best scripture on this topic is when jesus says: You look at scrpure as if it has eternal life. Even scripture speaks on my behalf. (John 5:39)
I honestly feel you (all) have your prorities wrong. Thats my opinion.

Testimonies about Jesus I find is found at John 5:31 to the end of the chapter.
Those Scriptures are the very ones that that are bearing witness about Jesus.
And as John 5:40 continues ....and yet you do Not want to come to Jesus so that you may have 'eternal ' life.
So, Jesus knew everything dies. Everything. That is: everything on Earth.
That was Not true before Adam broke God's Law of you eat, you die.
If mortal Adam had Not broken God's Law then mortal Adam would still be alive today on Earth.
Seems to me it was Adam who had his priorities wrong, dead wrong.
God's purpose, God's will, is that Earth be filled (Not overpopulated) with descendants of Adam and Eve.
God has Not changed his purpose and that is why God sent Jesus to Earth for us.
This is so as Jesus said the meek will inherit the Earth.
Inherit the Earth when the wicked are gone as per Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:21-22.
So, as Jesus said, that Scripture (old Hebrew Scripture) speaks on his behalf.

 

[whirlingmerc]

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Faith regarding what, exactly? Something real, something with objective existence? Then just show it to us.

The only alternative is something imaginary, and that fits Paul's description exactly. While I can enjoy imaginary things well enough, it's good to keep their status in mind.
Parts have been verified. Parts are simply story. Parts remain in substantial doubt, and anything with a miracle in it is self-evidently a mis-report at best. Was there an historical Moses? Probably not. Was there an historical Jesus? Possibly. Possibly not.
There are no absolute truths, because our conclusions are shaped by empiricism and induction, hence can never be shown to be complete. But yes, I have sensory information about the world external to me, and evolution-formed instincts in reacting to it, and education, and experience; and in a wide variety of circumstances I can make verifiably accurate statements about reality. In other cases I can back statements about reality with evidence-based argument provided by others.

And you think you can too, or we wouldn't be on RF at all, let alone having an interesting conversation.

"There are no absolute truths," sounds like a claim to an absolute truth

or is it just me?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I feel the same way

That is only due to poor reasoning on your part.

You do not see how you failed to answer the question about testing the Bible.