The Book of Revelation.................

[IndigoStorm]

Christians are desperate to unveil the "secret" that is the Revelation of St. John. The Assembly who edited/re-wrote the Bible were not dumb. The knew that the followers of Christ would spend eons trying to decipher it. And would of course turn to the church to enlighten them.

Personally I believe that John, who is sometimes credited with being the author of this strange book, must have been smoking something when he wrote it. He was most likely the first earthling ever to get high on LSD!

 

[lockyfan]

Church doesnt help anyone because most religions teach whatever they think is right. Ask 20 people from one church and they can come up with 20 answers.

Ask 20 people in the truth and they will give you all the same answer. because the bible is there for teaching in righteousness, not deciphering for ones self and then leaning on your own understanding. The bible even warnes against leaning on your own understanding.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Church doesnt help anyone because most religions teach whatever they think is right. Ask 20 people from one church and they can come up with 20 answers.

Ask 20 people in the truth and they will give you all the same answer. because the bible is there for teaching in righteousness, not deciphering for ones self and then leaning on your own understanding. The bible even warnes against leaning on your own understanding.

So,
A community of Christians, or church, is useless in deciphering the Bible because "most religions teach whatever they think is right".
And the individual Christian is is useless in deciphering the Bible because " The bible even warns against leaning on your own understanding."

Quite the quandary.

 

[lockyfan]

So,
A community of Christians, or church, is useless in deciphering the Bible because "most religions teach whatever they think is right".
And the individual Christian is is useless in deciphering the Bible because " The bible even warns against leaning on your own understanding."

Quite the quandary.

I am talking about the individual churches. What one preacher says could be something different from the preacher in the next town.

They seem to agree on some things, but not on others. The bible also warns us at proverbs 3:5-6 about leaning on your own understanding. you need to lean on the bible. So if what one person says seems to contradict the bible, it should be investigated from the bible, all evidence and see if that person is misguided or not. Also the bible talks of a oneness in faith. if one person from one belief says one thing and another person says another so 20 people in one congregation have 20 different answers where is their oneness of faith?
(Eph 4:11-14 especially 4:13)


They also dont seem to be living or practicing what they preach. Anyone who does this is a hypocrite and will not be in Gods Kingdom. (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[jtartar]

Let me rephrase my question. When was Revelation written as compared to the other NT books and gospels?

Watchmen,
John wrote Revelation in about 96CE, on the island of Patmos. The apostle John finished The Gospel of John about 98CE, and 1,2,3 John in the same year.
Jude wrote his letter in about 65CE, Peter wrote his last letter in about 64CE. Paul started writing in about 56CE, and his last letter was about 64CE.
ALL of John's writings came over thirty years after the other writers of the Greek Scriptures.

 

[Free4all]

The tribulation period is only 3 ½ years. There is no 7 year period of tribulation.



There is no rapture to safety in the middle of this period. Your safety is in God and his Holy Spirit to guide you.

Then how do you explain 11:12
Looks like a rapture to me.

 

[Free4all]

I was kinda interested in following this thread, so I'll just throw in some facts about this fascinating book.
1) The book of Revelation was written between 91 AD sand 96 AD
2) Author: John the Apostle
3) In the book, Heaven is opened only two times:
Rev 4:1-2 Heaven opens and somebody goes up
Rev 19:11 Heaven opens and somebody comes down
This clearly divides the book into three parts. Notice in Rev 1:19 John is told to write the book in three parts - the things thou hast seen, the things which are and, the things which shall be here after. (past, present and future)
The past = chapters 1-3
The present = Chapters 4-19
The future = Chapters 20-22

 

[Arlanbb]

(Your Quotes in italics)...

As then it seems with the truth of understanding, then each can be aware of the ‘revelation’ as promised to all mankind.


This revelation, as promised to all mankind, is what I posted. All feet shall bow. All will know Christ is king of kings. How many other evelations do we need to know? That the guy has a new name? So what?

I asked this question
what is the knowledge that will make each aware with 'understanding'?
Which shares to me, that perhaps the book of revelations is not your best subject but you appear well versed in religious beliefs as they are taught, rather than the words written


What do you mean what is the knowledge that will make each with understanding? The knowledge is and has always been his Word. I still do not know where you are going with this question and this one misunderstanding has nothing to do with my knowledge of the book. It means I do not understand YOU. It IS my best subject.

I asked …Since Jesus did not finish the jewish prophecies, how will messiah raise the fathers to the flesh?
perhaps because Jesus was not messiah as HE said
John 14 16and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age;

Seems Jesus himself was suggesting ‘another’ will come……

There is no man that can fulfill ALL prophecies at any one time. It takes more than one time to do this. You act like you know about these prophecies but I question if you have really studied them and know what you are talking about. Let me show you what I am talking about…
• How is the Messiah going to lead Israel to greatness, while at the same time the Messiah is to be rejected by Israel?
• How is the Messiah going to be the ultimate conqueror, yet also be killed in weakness?
• How is the Messiah going to usher in world peace (by destroying the wicked), when Israel herself is wicked (‘incurably ill, and desperately wicked’—said Jeremiah)?
• How is the Messiah going to come ‘on clouds’ and ‘on a donkey’ at the same time?
• How is Messiah going to come from the line of David (tribe of Judah) and from Levi at the same time?

The two contrasting descriptions/roles apply to the same messianic figure, but will be fulfilled in DIFFERENT times (or circumstances)
Also, the verses you are qutoing from John (The Comforter) are referencing the Holy Spirit. When he says this one will remain with you through the age he is referring to the gift of receiving the Holy Spirt. This gets complicated since many do not understand who or what the Holy Spirit actually is.


Did you read Rev 12? What did them 2 prophesize?

rev 12: 5and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne

And in rev 14: 1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;

Chapter 11 and ch. 12 have nothing to do with each other. Chapter 12 is a recap of what happened in the “time of Israel” and how Satan has tried to stalk Israel. The woman in Ch. 12 IS Israel. The male child she brought forth IS JESUS who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.
The 144,000 is also ISRAEL, coming out of great tribulation after being sealed.
But I do not understand your point regardless.


the ‘great city’ will be destroyed as well Jesus is not coming back.
A new child is BORN just as the true Jerusalem or zion (per se) has never existed

We can agree to disagree here, but scripture is clear on this. There will be what is called 1,000 years of peace finally in Jerusalem. This is how it is described…

Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the last days, the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come and let us go up to the mount of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach from His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion the Law will go forth, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more.

Mic 4:1 But it shall be in the end of the days, the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established on the top of the mountains; and it shall be lifted up from the hills; and peoples shall flow on it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us from His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For the Law shall go forth out of Zion, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And He shall judge between many peoples, and will decide for strong nations afar off. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, nor shall they learn war still.

Hi ~ will someone point out in Isa. and Mic. where Jerusalem is to last 1000 years??? Thanks:run:

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Arlanbb-

Revelation is highly symbolic. The Jerusalem of Revelation is a spiritual Jerusalem.-
Rev 21:2. Ancient earthly Jerusalem was the seat of government on earth.
The heavenly new Jerusalem of Rev 21:2; 3:12 is the heavenly seat of government of God's kingdom that we pray for to come by saying 'thy kingdom come'. God's will being done on earth will be global in scope because Rev 22:2 encompasses all of the nations. This will be in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham (Gen 12:3; 22:18) that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed. It is the 1000-yr rulership of Jesus, as crowned king of God's kingdom (Daniel 7:13,14; 2:44) Jesus rule over all the earth that will last a millennium.

See Galatians 4:26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The tribulation period is only 3 ½ years. There is no 7 year period of tribulation.



There is no rapture to safety in the middle of this period. Your safety is in God and his Holy Spirit to guide you.

Then how do you explain 11:12
Looks like a rapture to me.

There is a difference between rapture and resurrection.

Since Revelation is highly symbolic not all is literal.
How could their enemies behold them in heaven? Rev 11:12

Rather, Revelation shows a spiritual resurrection or awakening of Christianity during the end times or harvest times of Matthew 25:32,40. Their 'enemies beheld them' but can not stop the global preaching work as Jesus described at Matthew 24:14 that would be accomplished world wide before the end of all badness on earth comes.

Throughout the centuries the Bible, although written on fragile paper, no one, no enemy, has been able to get rid of it, or get rid of those trying to teach or be teaching Jesus teachings. -Matthew 28:19,20.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The death of the two witnesses identifies with the destruction of the church. Satan is loosed at the beginning of the Great Tribulation and is allowed by God to destroy the churches.

Revelation 17:2 mentions the political world-wide 'kings' or rulers of the earth.
Rev 17:17 shows it is God that puts it into the 'political hearts' to give their earthly kingdom authority to the 8th king or political beast of verse 11 in order to get rid of the false religious 'queen' of Rev 18:7; the world-wide religious sector that has run afoul playing false to God and Jesus. The United Nations sees a dangerous religious climate brewing in the world today such as in religious terrorism, and with backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the world's religions.

It is Not until Rev 20:1,2 that Satan is bound for 1000 yrs. This takes place after Jesus comes in action as described at Rev 19:11,15; Isaiah 11:4.

 

[Arlanbb]

Arlanbb-

Revelation is highly symbolic. The Jerusalem of Revelation is a spiritual Jerusalem.-
Rev 21:2. Ancient earthly Jerusalem was the seat of government on earth.
The heavenly new Jerusalem of Rev 21:2; 3:12 is the heavenly seat of government of God's kingdom that we pray for to come by saying 'thy kingdom come'. God's will being done on earth will be global in scope because Rev 22:2 encompasses all of the nations. This will be in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham (Gen 12:3; 22:18) that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed. It is the 1000-yr rulership of Jesus, as crowned king of God's kingdom (Daniel 7:13,14; 2:44) Jesus rule over all the earth that will last a millennium.

See Galatians 4:26

I'm sorry but i have looked up all the scripture you gave and still i can not find a statement where Jesus will rain in Jerusalem for 1000 years?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Arlanbb-

There is no Scripture that states Jesus will reign over earthly Jerusalem as the seat of government. 'New' Jerusalem is heavenly. Since Jesus words at Matthew 23:38 that the Jewish House of Worship in Jerusalem would be left desolate or abandoned were fulfilled by the Romans armies in the year 70 it is only heavenly Jerusalem that is the center.

Fleshly or natural Israel exists today as a national group. People of all countries and nations whether in Israel or not can become Christian and make up spiritual Israel to be part of the Christian congregation.
Romans 2:28,29; Acts 17:30; 2nd Peter 3:9 B; 1st Peter 2:9.

 

[Free4all]

John's Revelation. I would be happy to discuss this with folks that are not clear on this book. Tribulation? Resurrection? Seals? Trumpets? Etc.

What questions would you have?

[Plenty of views - no questions. Guess everyone gets the book. Good]

yall dumb ***** - I have never seen the book of rev. better insulted

 

[Free4all]

yall dumb ***** - I have never seen the book of rev. better insulted

It's not worth even commenting on most of the time

 

[Ba'al]

Jesus was a Jewish apocalypticist. That was nothing abnormal in that day. He taught the end was near and said it would happen within that generation. Mark (13:30) "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." One should read chapter 13 in its entirety as to understand the context. Christians have a hard time explaining this and make up all kinds ways to reconcile the the fact that those generations passed and nothing happened. If you look at the later christian writings, Jesus' apocalyptic view was toned down. For example in Mark(9:1) Jesus says "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
And the same event in Luke (9:27), roughly 20 years later, Jesus says " But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God" It sounds the same but in Luke, the kingdom of God is among them in Jesus' ministry. So in Mark Jesus has a clear apocalyptic message that is very near but by the time the latest gospel (John) is written, that message is somewhat muted. There is a consensus among scholars that this is the case.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ba'al

Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 are talking about the future. The apostles did think at first that Jesus would set up his kingdom rule over the earth at that time. Jesus would have to show them differently. Beside what he foretold at Matt, Luke and Mark, like the illustration or parable of a master going away on a long, long journey before he would return to see who was taking care of his (spiritual) belongings.

Mt 24, Lk 21, Mk 13 all connect to the time frame of Rev 1:10 or set in the 'Lord's day'.
So the generation would have to be alive at the time of the Lord's day or our time frame.
That is the generation that will not pass away before Jesus comes in the described action by Isaiah 11:4 and Rev 19:11,15 to rid the earth of all wickedness- Psalm 92:7.

The vision, the transfiguration vision, is a glimpse or foregleam of how Jesus would be in royal or kingly spender when as crowned king of God's kingdom he would be in power during his millennial rule over earth. Since they 'saw' that vision (future picture) when they were still 'alive' they had not yet tasted death, but rather they had a preview or foretaste of peaceful kingdom conditions when God's will is being done on earth 'as' it is in heaven. Micah 4:3,4

In Scripture, God's will for heaven is a peaceful place with no sickness or death.
Does anybody go to heaven to be sick there, or go to heaven to die in heaven ?
No, of course not. So when God's will is being done on earth 'as' it is in heaven then Jesus will bring those good paradise conditions to earth. As Rev 21:3,4 promises that even for man or mankind death will be no more. This is in fulfillment of Isaiah's words (25:8) that there will be no more death, and as 1st Corinthians 15:26 says: our last enemy death will be brought to nothing. There will be a resurrection- Acts 24:15.

 

[Ba'al]

There's no point debating something that has already been concluded among christian scholars. But you could read this from Wiki:

A great many - if not a majority - of critical Biblical scholars, going as far back as Albert Schweitzer, hold that Jesus believed that the end of history was coming within his own lifetime or within the lifetime of his contemporaries.[95]
The evidence for this thesis comes from several verses, including the following:

• In Mark 8:38-9:1, Jesus says that the Son of Man will come "in the glory of the Father with the holy angels" during "this adulterous generation." Indeed, he says, "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power."

• In Luke 21:35-36, Jesus urges constant, unremitting preparedness on the part of his followers in light of the imminence of the end of history and the final intervention of God. "Be alert at all times, praying to have strength to flee from all these things that are about to take place and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man."

• In Mark 13:24-27, 30, Jesus describes what will happen when the end comes, saying that "the sun will grow dark and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and ... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory." He gives a timeline for this event: "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place."

• The Apostle Paul also seems to have shared this expectation. Toward the end of 1 Corinthians 7, he counsels Christians to avoid getting married if they can since the end of history was imminent. Speaking to the unmarried, he writes, "I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as your are." "I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short ... For the present form of this world is passing away." (1 Corinthians 7:26, 29, 31) In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Paul also seems to believe that he will live to witness the return of Jesus and the end of history.

According to Geza Vermes, Jesus' announcement of the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God "was patently not fulfilled" and "created a serious embarrassment for the primitive church." [96] According to E.P. Sanders, these eschatological sayings of Jesus are "passages that many Christian scholars would like to see vanish," as "the events they predict did not come to pass, which means that Jesus was wrong."


or read this:
Chapter 16


Or you could take one of Professor Bart Ehrman's classes who is considered the leading scholar in New Testament theology and he will tell you the same.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ba'al-

There would be no reason (Matt 24:3) for Jesus apostles to ask for that composite sign that Jesus gave if the end was soon. There is both a 'minor' and a 'major' fulfillment. The Roman armies in the year 70 destroyed Jerusalem, but Jesus words encompass more that that time frame. Sure the generation that is alive at the time of Jesus coming in glory will be the generation that will not pass away. The year 70 was not the great tribulation as verse 21 describes. A great crowd described in Revelation 7:9,10,14 come out of great tribulation. Revelation was written after the year 70. Revelation is a revealing. It is a revealing of the future.

First, as Matt 24:24 shows, there will be many coming 'in Jesus name' but prove false.
Luke wrote (Acts 20:29,30) that wolf-like ones would enter in among the congregation.
Jesus gave the illustration of the wheat and the weeds. They would grow together until the harvest time or our time frame before there would be separation. So true and false Christians would grow together, and like the illustration of Matthew 25:32 Jesus, as Shepherd, will separate the sheep-like ones from the goats.

 

[Zadok]

John's Revelation. I would be happy to discuss this with folks that are not clear on this book. Tribulation? Resurrection? Seals? Trumpets? Etc.

What questions would you have?

[Plenty of views - no questions. Guess everyone gets the book. Good]

How can you explain anything in the Book of Revelation without violating verses 18 and 19 of chapter 22?

Zadok