The Book of Revelation.................

[Zadok]

.......

Or you could take one of Professor Bart Ehrman's classes who is considered the leading scholar in New Testament theology and he will tell you the same.

I wanted to make a comment about a statement on your tag line -- Jesus never said he was G-d. During the celebration of the feasible of lights, which celebrates the light of Jehovah lighting the temple. Jesus said very plainly that he was the light of life. This statement is a clear statement to the Jews that Jesus was Jehovah.

Zadok

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I wanted to make a comment about a statement on your tag line -- Jesus never said he was G-d. During the celebration of the feasible of lights, which celebrates the light of Jehovah lighting the temple. Jesus said very plainly that he was the light of life. This statement is a clear statement to the Jews that Jesus was Jehovah.

Zadok

At John (10:22-36) Jesus was at the feast or festival of dedication which the Jews also call the festival of lights. There Jesus was asked in verse 24 to tell them plainly if he is the Christ. Verse 25 Jesus says he does works in his Father's name not in his own name. In verse 29 Jesus says his Father is greater than all. (see John 14:28). At 10:36 Jesus is accused of blasphemy not because he said he was God but because Jesus said: he is the Son of God.

 

[Ba'al]

And others....

John(8:26)"I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him."

John(8:28)Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my father taught me, I speak these things."

John(12:49-50)"For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."
"And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak."

John(5:30)"I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me."

John(14:31) "But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, so I do. . . ."

Jesus was a great prophet...but not God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John also wrote, decades after Jesus was in heaven, at Revelation (2:18 ) that Jesus still believed he was the Son of God.

 

[Ba'al]

Jesus WAS the son of God. But that does not mean he WAS God. The bible states in MANY places MANY people being the son of God. For example 1 Chronicles (28:6) "for I have chosen him to be my Son, and I will be his Father." God is referring to king Solomon here. Does that mean Solomon is God? The term son of God means anyone who is close to God. URAVIP2ME, I don't mind correcting you on this stuff because religion is my passion and my education but try to be open to learning things that might go against what you think. That's what most of us are here for right?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ba'al-

At Revelation (2:18) doesn't the resurrected Jesus believe he 'IS' still the Son of God?

How do you answer the 5th question asked at Proverbs 30:4 b ?

 

[Ba'al]

Ba'al-
At Revelation (2:18) doesn't the resurrected Jesus believe he 'IS' still the Son of God?

Isn't he? The bible refers to angels as "sons of God" as well.

How do you answer the 5th question asked at Proverbs 30:4 b ?

Look at the statement. "What is his name, and the name of his son?" The writer makes a clear distinction. If they are the same why ask for both? Jesus is clearly at the right hand of God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Who are the two (2) LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110:1?

How many thrones for who are mentioned at Rev. 3:21?

 

[Ba'al]

Who are the two (2) LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110:1?

The 2 lords are God and Jesus. Psalms were written in Hebrew. The first "lord" mentioned is Yahweh in Hebrew but in English is sometimes translated as lord. The second "lord" mentioned is Adoni in Hebrew which can also be translated in English as Lord. However, Adoni is NEVER referred to as God himself in the old testament. Adoni ALWAYS refers to a person or angel. For example, in Joshua(5:14-15)
"Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?" The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
Adoni is used for the commander of the lord. If you read the rest of the psalm it clearly states that the Adoni lord will come and "judge the nation". Doesn't the New Testament teach how Jesus will return to judge everyone?
My first answer also answers your second. Jesus was a divine being before and after his death doing the works of "his father". This doesn't mean he is God. The angel Gabriel also does the works of God. Does this mean he is God?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I like that line of reasoning about Gabriel. Of course Gabriel does the work or works of God yet is not God. Jesus is the Lord mentioned at 1st Thess.4:16 with God's trumpet, and Jesus has the voice of the one and only archangel. So we know the archangel's voice is not Gabriel voice but both angels do God's works.

 

[AK4]

At John (10:22-36) Jesus was at the feast or festival of dedication which the Jews also call the festival of lights. There Jesus was asked in verse 24 to tell them plainly if he is the Christ. Verse 25 Jesus says he does works in his Father's name not in his own name. In verse 29 Jesus says his Father is greater than all. (see John 14:28). At 10:36 Jesus is accused of blasphemy not because he said he was God but because Jesus said: he is the Son of God.

Gee i guess this passage and many others arent evidence of Jesus calling Himself God. Pay attention to all the words now

Mt 7:21-22 -Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mt 22:37 -Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mt 4:7 - Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Mt 4:10 - then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Oh theres more, lots more. But i will stop there and do i even need to go to the book of Revelation? Truly the words of Jesus is true "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear"

Oh one more just for fun

Joh 18:5 - They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

Joh 18:6 - As soon then as he had said unto them,I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

That "I am he" should just be "I AM", "he" is not in the greek. Think about it, did Jesus just say plainly i am he or did He say I AM with such authority and power that "they went backward, and fell to the ground"?

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear"

 

[AK4]

Oh just to add more to one of the passages above, check this passage out

Mark 12:28-34 - 28 And one of the scribes came, .... asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord THY God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. .....32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: .... 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


Could it be any plainer? The Jews, the scribes and pharisees back then knew who He was and theres evidence of this all over too. Yet people today deny Jesus so much.

 

[Ba'al]

Mt 7:21-22 -Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

The word "lord" used in Mt (7:21) is the greek word "kurios" and can mean king, owner, ruler, master, mister, sir, or god. In the passage Jesus clearly makes a distinction between himself and God, "but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven".

Mt 22:37 -Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Why do you think he is referring to himself here instead of God?

Mt 4:7 - Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Jesus is quoting Dt (6:16). Meaning tempting him is like trying to tempt God.

Mt 4:10 - then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Again, why do you think Jesus is referring to himself in these passages, there's nothing to indicate he is.

Joh 18:5 - They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 - As soon then as he had said unto them,I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

And if you continue reading the passage it says...
Once more he asked them, “Who are you looking for?” And again they replied, “Jesus the Nazarene.”
8 “I told you that I am he,” Jesus said.
Jesus confirms that he is Jesus of Nazarene, not God.
More of the like passages in John...
(6:48) I am the bread of life.
(10:11)I am the good shepherd.
(15:1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower.
None of them mean he is God.

Mark 12:28-34 - 28 And one of the scribes came, .... asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord THY God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. .....32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: .... 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

This statement certainly does not refer at all to Jesus being God. This Jew asked Jesus this simple question not because he didn't think Jesus knew the answer. All Jews in those days knew the most important commandment so he wanted to see if Jesus gave a blasphemous answer.

Could it be any plainer?

Yes. He could have said just once, "I am Yahweh".

The Jews, the scribes and pharisees back then knew who He was and theres evidence of this all over too. Yet people today deny Jesus so much.

They didn't know who he was, otherwise they wouldn't have had him crucified. They thought he was a blasphemous peasant. The Jews were expecting the messiah to be a mighty king as the scriptures prophesied.

 

[AK4]

The word "lord" used in Mt (7:21) is the greek word "kurios" and can mean king, owner, ruler, master, mister, sir, or god. In the passage Jesus clearly makes a distinction between himself and God, "but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven".

Yes [but kurios doesnt mean god] Jesus and the Father are not the same “entity”. Most of Christianity and the world don’t recognize this. They think of a 3 in 1 trinity or think that Jehovah was God the Father. Sorry that’s not me. Jehovah Elohim/Lord God is/was Jesus.

It doesn’t matter what “kurios” can mean cus it means what it means as in “the kurios theos”—Lord God. “You shall love the Lord [kurios] God [theos]….” Versus “You shall love the Lord [Jehovah] God [Elohim]….” Jesus came to unfold/reveal the Father not Himself.

Why do you think he is referring to himself here instead of God?

Actually He is referring to Himself and the Father. To worship Him you worship the Father. Jesus Himself says this. They are one, not the same “entity”, but one in spirit.

Jesus is quoting Dt (6:16). Meaning tempting him is like trying to tempt God.

So lets see. Jesus can do all that His Father/God can do and tempting Him is like tempting God, yet Jesus is not God? Pretty weird if ya ask me. The problem is people think God is the name of the Father. The word God is like a title. Jesus is called God. Satan is called a god. Ba’al [no pun intended] was called a god and as Paul even stated

1 Corinthians 8: 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is {but} one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we {exist} through Him.

Jesus is our God because from His Father/God all power in heaven and earth was given to Him so it is as you say “tempting him is like trying to tempt God”.

Again, why do you think Jesus is referring to himself in these passages, there's nothing to indicate he is.

You didn’t see the connection in the earlier post?! Jesus referred or called Himself Lord as in Matt 7:21-22 and to connect it with verses like Matt 4:10 you should see the obvious. In any other form of literature people would make and see the connection but since its in the bible no one wants to see it.

Quote:
And if you continue reading the passage it says...
Once more he asked them, “Who are you looking for?” And again they replied, “Jesus the Nazarene.”
8 “I told you that I am he,” Jesus said.
Jesus confirms that he is Jesus of Nazarene, not God.
More of the like passages in John...
(6:48) I am the bread of life.
(10:11)I am the good shepherd.
(15:1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower.
None of them mean he is God.

In verse 8, again, it is just “I AM” not “I am he”. Jesus confirms being a Nazarene and also He confirms who He is by saying “I AM” not “I am he”. He does both not just one. That’s taking away from scripture to say He is only talking about being a Nazarene. Was it just a coincidence that Jesus asked them a second time who they were looking for? Was it just a coincidence or some sort of earthquake that happened only to those looking for Him that they fell backwards precisely when He said “I AM”? Do you think they didn’t hear Him the first time? Come now, the evidence is right there.

Oh and those verses just further proves my point. Jesus says He is the bread of life, good shepard, true vine. He has all power given to Him to be like a God because His Father gave Him this to make Him a God thus you have this verse when translated right to further confirm Jesus being made a God
Joh 1:18 - No man hath seen (5758) God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is (5752) in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared (5662) him.


Son is not translated right. The greek word is theos and It should be “the only begotten God”. How about further proof. Jesus says and quotes the prophets “they shall all be taught of God” and then states “Everyone who has HEARD and learn from the Father…not that anyone has seen the Father” and Jesus also stated “no man has seen or HEARD His voice at anytime”. So put it together you have Jesus saying those who are hearing from the Father [Jesus is a father (see Isa 45)] coming to Him. Jesus is not saying He is THE Father but a father. No one can hear the Father, but Jesus as the spokesman for God we can hear. He is our father and creator. The Father through Jesus created us. Hence they both are fathers.

This statement certainly does not refer at all to Jesus being God. This Jew asked Jesus this simple question not because he didn't think Jesus knew the answer. All Jews in those days knew the most important commandment so he wanted to see if Jesus gave a blasphemous answer.

Right and you and those jews agree that Jesus didn’t give a blasphemous answer. So when Jesus says He is Lord as in “many will say to ME Lord, Lord” and then quotes “shall love the Lord thy God” He is saying He is the Lord your God.

Yes. He could have said just once, "I am Yahweh".

Yeah but that would be too easy and that’s just not how God works. Jesus could of saved those people back then too, but that’s not what He wanted to do at that time see John 12:37-41 and Matt 13:13-15. He purposely spoke in parables and not plain speech so He wouldn’t have to heal them. And this is still happening to this day.

They didn't know who he was, otherwise they wouldn't have had him crucified. They thought he was a blasphemous peasant. The Jews were expecting the messiah to be a mighty king as the scriptures prophesied.

The Gospels are littered with accounts showing the jews [especially the scribes and Pharisees] knew Jesus was the Christ, Teacher, Master, “Good Master”, “from God”. Just open up one of the gospels and see for yourself these statements. Everyone knows they crucified Him to try to keep their own power.

 

[AK4]

Jesus says and quotes the prophets “they shall all be taught of God” and then states “Everyone who has HEARD and learn from the Father…not that anyone has seen the Father” and Jesus also stated “no man has seen or HEARD His voice at anytime”.

Let me add to this one too. Notice Jesus says to satan

Matt 4; 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' "

Now Jesus later tells everyone that no one can see or hear God at anytime, yet Jesus is saying here that actual words come out from (a) God. So in otherwords it is coming from Him the Spokesman for His God [the Father]. Yes Jesus has a God.

 

[Ba'al]

Yes [but kurios doesnt mean god] Jesus and the Father are not the same “entity”.

That's what I'm saying.

Jehovah Elohim/Lord God is/was Jesus.

It does not say that anywhere in the old or new testament.

To worship Him you worship the Father. Jesus Himself says this. They are one, not the same “entity”, but one in spirit.

I agree. Jesus was the spokesperson for God, and like Moses in his time, the way to God was through Moses, by following the teachings given to him by God.

So lets see. Jesus can do all that His Father/God can do and tempting Him is like tempting God, yet Jesus is not God?

Jesus can't do all his father can do. All his power comes from God as stated in John (5:30) "I can of myself do nothing."

The problem is people think God is the name of the Father. The word God is like a title. Jesus is called God. Satan is called a god.
Jesus is our God because from His Father/God all power in heaven and earth was given to Him so it is as you say “tempting him is like trying to tempt God”.

Agreed.

You didn’t see the connection in the earlier post?! Jesus referred or called Himself Lord as in Matt 7:21-22 and to connect it with verses like Matt 4:10 you should see the obvious. In any other form of literature people would make and see the connection but since its in the bible no one wants to see it.

You are making this connection. Jesus says himself in Luke (18:19) "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

In verse 8, again, it is just “I AM” not “I am he”. Jesus confirms being a Nazarene and also He confirms who He is by saying “I AM” not “I am he”. He does both not just one. That’s taking away from scripture to say He is only talking about being a Nazarene. Was it just a coincidence that Jesus asked them a second time who they were looking for? Was it just a coincidence or some sort of earthquake that happened only to those looking for Him that they fell backwards precisely when He said “I AM”? Do you think they didn’t hear Him the first time? Come now, the evidence is right there.

I DO think they might have realized that Jesus was the messiah and that is why they stepped back, but not God himself. The jewish scriptures didn't say the messiah would be God himself, so why do you think they would?

Jesus says He is the bread of life, good shepard, true vine.

He was these things. Jesus was the messiah, and did God's will, and that's what this means.

He has all power given to Him to be like a God because His Father gave Him this to make Him a God thus you have this verse when translated right to further confirm Jesus being made a God

You're proving me right here. Jesus had all his power given to him.

Joh 1:18 - No man hath seen (5758) God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is (5752) in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared (5662) him.

There you go, no man has seen God. I guess that means Jesus isn't God because many people seen Jesus. Jesus is the son of God which we know from other scripture means someone who is close to God.

Son is not translated right. The greek word is theos and It should be “the only begotten God”. How about further proof. Jesus says and quotes the prophets “they shall all be taught of God” and then states “Everyone who has HEARD and learn from the Father…not that anyone has seen the Father” and Jesus also stated “no man has seen or HEARD His voice at anytime”. So put it together you have Jesus saying those who are hearing from the Father [Jesus is a father (see Isa 45)] coming to Him. Jesus is not saying He is THE Father but a father. No one can hear the Father, but Jesus as the spokesman for God we can hear. He is our father and creator. The Father through Jesus created us. Hence they both are fathers.

You almost sound like you are agreeing with me here. Jesus was not God but God worked through Jesus. He was a very special prophet.

Yeah but that would be too easy and that’s just not how God works.

Rubbish. Why would God make it hard for us to understand him. He loves us and would not put forth an elaborate riddle that only some could solve.

The Gospels are littered with accounts showing the jews [especially the scribes and Pharisees] knew Jesus was the Christ, Teacher, Master, “Good Master”, “from God”.

The Jews did not know Jesus was the Christ. Jesus knew the scriptures very well and was called teacher and master for that that reason, not because they thought he was the Christ or God. Btw, this is off topic so we should move it to the thread Did Jesus say he was God?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

LORD/Lord God/god are titles an not proper names. Psalm 110:1; 2 Cor. 4:4.

None of those titles are the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) the four letters representing the name of the God of the Bible. The Tetragrammaton is never applied to Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Let me add to this one too. Notice Jesus says to satan

Matt 4; 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' "

Now Jesus later tells everyone that no one can see or hear God at anytime, yet Jesus is saying here that actual words come out from (a) God. So in otherwords it is coming from Him the Spokesman for His God [the Father]. Yes Jesus has a God.

Yes, and at Exodus 33:20 No man can see God and live.

At Matthew 4:4 when Jesus said man must not live on bread alone (physical things) but live on every word that comes out of the mouth of God (spiritual things) Jesus was making reference to Deut 8:3. So the words that came out of the mouth of God would then be the recorded written words found in the Hebrew OT Scriptures that Jesus often supported his teachings with when Jesus prefaced his statements with, "It is written". Luke 4:4,8,10
The words out of God's mouth were already written down for all to read.

 

[AK4]

Rubbish. Why would God make it hard for us to understand him. He loves us and would not put forth an elaborate riddle that only some could solve.

Besides you have the riddles a.k.a parables of the pearl of great price and the hidden treasure in the field. The many parables/riddles of the gospels and parables written by apostles, the prophets of the OT and the probably the biggest of them all Revelation--you have to admit that that book is the hardest of all to understand and these prophets of doom [these scholars and theologians of today] are all wrong. The whole bible is one giant parable with thousands of parable/riddles in it--not meant for all to understand in this age, but all will eventually when "Thy judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness"[Isa 26:9]
That should be enough evidence, besides this verse clearly states that God makes it hard to understand Him for the most of mankind
Pr 25:2 - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Btw, this is off topic so we should move it to the thread Did Jesus say he was God?

Agreed so i wont comment on the rest of your post

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Besides you have the riddles a.k.a parables of the pearl of great price and the hidden treasure in the field. The many parables/riddles of the gospels and parables written by apostles, the prophets of the OT and the probably the biggest of them all Revelation--you have to admit that that book is the hardest of all to understand and these prophets of doom [these scholars and theologians of today] are all wrong. The whole bible is one giant parable with thousands of parable/riddles in it--not meant for all to understand in this age, but all will eventually when "Thy judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness"[Isa 26:9]
That should be enough evidence, besides this verse clearly states that God makes it hard to understand Him for the most of mankind
Pr 25:2 - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Isn't Proverbs 25:2 talking about personal matters?

Amos 3:7 -God will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets. (Jesus fit that description and Jesus did reveal to us about the future)

Doesn't Jesus make it known at Matthew (11:27) that through him God will be revealed? John (15:15) what Jesus heard from his Father he made known to his followers?

A parable is an: illustration. Didn't Jesus explain those illustrations?

Prophets of doom? Isn't it science with its Doom's Day Clock with its hands nearing striking the dark midnight hour that are the real prophets of doom, doom and gloom?

How is learning righteousness doom and gloom? (Golden Rule)

What was it like originally in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve had perfect health in mind and body. Never sick . Plenty to eat and if they kept their righteousness they would be well and alive today.

Isn't Revelation (21:3,4) like a beautiful description of that original Garden of Eden? Like in Eden there was no sorrow, pain, outcry or death. Revelation (22:2) says there will be healing or curing of the nations. Wouldn't that mean earthly bliss for us?

Isn't that the fulfillment of the promise or guarantee to Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 22:17,18) that the time would come when all families of the earth will be blessed, and all nations of the earth will be blessed ?

Jesus millennial reign, or 1000-year rule over earth will Not be marked with doom and gloom. Jesus, as 'Prince of Peace', will usher in Peace on Earth toward all men of goodwill.


Isaiah 9:6,7; 65:16 B,25; 35:5-7;11:6-9; 25:8; 2:4; Micah 4:3,4; 1 Cor 15:26.