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The bright side of Atheism

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Actually, even at work, school, and in my dealings with the government, you will find a surprising amount of non-compliance. I am two years behind on my taxes (they owe me money, not the other way around, so they're not too fussed about it). I skipped 60% of my classes in high school. I've ignored the Internet use rules and the dress code in every job I've ever had, and showed up in my own good time every day unless there was a rational reason for me to arrive at a specific time. I break the laws I consider unreasonable. In fact, I feel this is somewhat of an ethical obligation.

So no, it is not in my nature to submit to authority when its demands are unreasonable. I've quit a number of jobs where individuals in leadership positions tried to intimidate me into compliance with their unreasonable rules - but I've never been fired. I have in several cases caused the rules to change by my non-compliance.

I didn't ask if it was in your nature to submit to authority when it's demands are unreasonable. Sometimes I don't submit to authority either. Whether we submit or not - the fact is that there are people, and entities which do have authority over us, and if they choose, they can exert that authority, whether we agree with them or their rules or laws, or not. And eventually, some of them will.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I didn't ask if it was in your nature to submit to authority when it's demands are unreasonable. Sometimes I don't submit to authority either. Whether we submit or not - the fact is that there are people, and entities which do have authority over us, and if they choose, they can exert that authority, whether we agree with them or their rules or laws, or not. And eventually, some of them will.
Actually you did say I submit to authority at school, work, in dealing with the government, etc. Or perhaps you were using the generic "you"?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Actually you did say I submit to authority at school, work, in dealing with the government, etc. Or perhaps you were using the generic "you"?

By even walking through the door, turning in assignments, paying tuition (if a school requires it) with a check or debit/credit card that is honored because you have available funds, you are submitting to authority.

In fact, if you have a debit or credit card you're submitting to authority. If you have a drivers license, you're submitting to authority.

What I was saying though is that it's not your attitude toward authority that's really in question - it's whether or not people or entities have authority over you (recognized by you or not), and my point is - they do. You can resist that authority, you can fight against it, you can disregard it, you can convince such people or entities to disregard your disregard, or change their policies, or whatever - but the bottom line is that they do have authority over you, and if they choose to do so, they can fire you/write you up/refuse to give you credit/kick you out/fill in the blank.

Whether or not they think it's worth their time or effort isn't the point - the point is that they can if they so choose.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
By even walking through the door, turning in assignments, paying tuition (if a school requires it) with a check or debit/credit card that is honored because you have available funds, you are submitting to authority.

In fact, if you have a debit or credit card you're submitting to authority. If you have a drivers license, you're submitting to authority.

What I was saying though is that it's not your attitude toward authority that's really in question - it's whether or not people or entities have authority over you (recognized by you or not), and my point is - they do. You can resist that authority, you can fight against it, you can disregard it, you can convince such people or entities to disregard your disregard, or change their policies, or whatever - but the bottom line is that they do have authority over you, and if they choose to do so, they can fire you/write you up/refuse to give you credit/kick you out/fill in the blank.

Whether or not they think it's worth their time or effort isn't the point - the point is that they can if they so choose.

One has to submit to one authority or another. The important question is; is the authority truthful and legit.

Regards
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
One has to submit to one authority or another. The important question is; is the authority truthful and legit.

Actually, no, submission to authority is not unavoidable.

Authority is in fact a grant. People exchange obedience for protection. A person may refuse to acknowledge any authorities as long as he or she accepts the decurrent lack of outer protection.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
By even walking through the door, turning in assignments, paying tuition (if a school requires it) with a check or debit/credit card that is honored because you have available funds, you are submitting to authority.

In fact, if you have a debit or credit card you're submitting to authority. If you have a drivers license, you're submitting to authority.

What I was saying though is that it's not your attitude toward authority that's really in question - it's whether or not people or entities have authority over you (recognized by you or not), and my point is - they do. You can resist that authority, you can fight against it, you can disregard it, you can convince such people or entities to disregard your disregard, or change their policies, or whatever - but the bottom line is that they do have authority over you, and if they choose to do so, they can fire you/write you up/refuse to give you credit/kick you out/fill in the blank.

Whether or not they think it's worth their time or effort isn't the point - the point is that they can if they so choose.
Yes, I disregard them, and their power to fire me is matched by my power to fire them (IOW, walk off the job).

It isn't "authority" over me for a bank to turn me down for credit, it's their money, their choice. And I don't have to do business with them.

I think you are really reaching here. You seem to be arguing against an absolutist position I never put forward. Yes I have to keep my license valid and my car insured, but that is not even remotely related to obtaining the rules governing your sex life from church instead of your own conscience.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Actually, no, submission to authority is not unavoidable.

Authority is in fact a grant. People exchange obedience for protection. A person may refuse to acknowledge any authorities as long as he or she accepts the decurrent lack of outer protection.

^ This guy gets it. :) Others only have the authority over you that you voluntarily allow them.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

Yes, I disregard them, and their power to fire me is matched by my power to fire them (IOW, walk off the job).

I don't know the nature of your work, but let me put it this way - my husband and I are self employed, and yet we still have authority over us in the form of state and federal laws. We can choose to work, or not to work, and yet if we choose to work, we are subject to laws and/or regulations of some sort. Now - those may be disregarded but that doesn't mean that the laws don't apply - and whoever can apply them can choose whether or not to do so. Hence my statement "if they think it's worth their time and effort to apply those laws/rules, they can and probably will." And I'll add one more - often they SHOULD.

Like I said, it doesn't really MATTER whether or not you disregard the authority of those who have authority over you. They still have that authority - they may choose not to use it, or choose to postpone it, or whatever - but that authority is still there.

It isn't "authority" over me for a bank to turn me down for credit, it's their money, their choice. And I don't have to do business with them.

I wasn't talking about simply extending credit. If you use a debit card, or online banking, or any sort of banking services at all, you've submitted to the bank's authority to require that you provide proof of your identity, and that your accounts comply with state and federal laws. You've submitted to their authority to require signatures on new accounts. You've submitted to their authority to charge fees for various actions. Now - they may not have EXERCISED that authority - but it's still there. Of course, if they choose to exercise it and you don't like it, you can forego their services - but if you have a bank account at the moment - of any sort - you've agreed to comply with their authority - and with state and federal laws as well. You may NOT be complying - but when you use their services, you have agreed that they have a level of authority over your accounts and how you use their services.

I think you are really reaching here. You seem to be arguing against an absolutist position I never put forward. Yes I have to keep my license valid and my car insured, but that is not even remotely related to obtaining the rules governing your sex life from church instead of your own conscience.

But you said you only comply with rules that YOU think are reasonable. What if someone else drops their vehicle insurance because they don't think it's reasonable for them to have to carry it? (For the sake of argument, let's just say that, like someone I know, they've been driving for 50 years and have never had a ticket or an accident.) Is that OK with you? Would you or anyone else have the right to mandate that to them, and to hold them accountable if they don't carry insurance? Now - I'm not talking about if they're actually in an accident and hurt someone else or damage someone else's property - I'm just saying, is it anyone's right to force them to either 1) carry insurance or 2) be penalized?

See, here's why I don't think I'm overreaching at all. I'm sorry you can't see the connection, but I'll explain it to you. You only comply with rules that you think are reasonable, you say - though I do find it pretty hard to imagine anyone reaching adulthood without being extremely frustrated by mind boggling bureaucracy that they MUST comply with, sometimes without even fully understanding why, at one time or the other. For example - just the other day, my husband needed to get the inspection sticker for his new truck, which he had just bought the day before. The dealership had forgotten to put the sticker on there. It was 4:30 and we were across town and had lots of things to do before 5. It was a Friday afternoon. My husband has to leave at 4 am Monday morning to drive across the country, so he needs his inspection sticker. The dealership told us that we had to get there before 5 because it is against state law for them to issue an inspection sticker after 5 pm, or on the weekend.

So - guess what - we had to submit to that authority if we wanted the vehicle to be in compliance by 4 am Monday morning. We had to hoof it across town and get there before 5 regardless of what our other plans were, and in spite of the fact that we think it is VERY unreasonable of both the state and the dealership to be so time sensitive and anal about it, especially since the vehicle is new, it's already passed the inspection, and all that needed to be done was a sticker filled out and affixed to the window of the truck.

So - was the law reasonable? I don't think so. Do I agree with the law? Not with the information I have on hand. Could we have chosen to disregard the law? Yes. But would that have meant that the state ceased to have authority over us? No.

I'll take it one step further though - I'm mature enough to realize that there may in fact be a very valid reason for this particular law. I clearly don't have all the information I need to determine whether this is a hill worth dying on or not. Someone smarter than me - or at least smarter about vehicle inspections - may have an EXCELLENT reason for authoring, supporting, and enforcing this law. I'm not the smartest girl around, but I'm smart enough to know that there are people out there who have more information than me and therefore more wisdom than me in many areas.

It's the same thing to me with moral values. When I was a child, I didn't know a thing about STDs, date rape, the struggles of single mothers or fathers trying to raise children on their own, the hurtfulness of infidelity, or men having to go to the ER because hamsters were lodged up their colon. I did know, though, that touching myself in certain places felt great - and it's not too big a leap of the imagination to figure out that it would feel great for other people to touch me there as well!

Left to my own innocent devices, there's no telling what havoc I could have wreaked on the realm of human sexuality! But thankfully, I had the benefit of being taught some moral principles that have served me well when I've abided by them - and I was taught some of these long before I had any idea why they might be a better option than some other available options.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
^ This guy gets it. :) Others only have the authority over you that you voluntarily allow them.

Nope. I disagree. You can DISREGARD authority, but that doesn't make it go away.

Alceste, say that you decide you don't like your country's laws anymore, and you want to move to another country. You can move legally or illegally. However, if you move illegally, you're still under the authority of laws - you're just disregarding them. Big difference.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
One has to submit to one authority or another. The important question is; is the authority truthful and legit.

Regards

I'm an anarcho-communist so submission to authority isn't really in my vocabulary (except in the bedroom but that's another matter :D ). I just follow the laws of the society I'm in because I don't want to go to jail, not necessarily because I agree with them all. :D
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I'm an anarcho-communist so submission to authority isn't really in my vocabulary (except in the bedroom but that's another matter :D ). I just follow the laws of the society I'm in because I don't want to go to jail, not necessarily because I agree with them all. :D

You don't have to AGREE with authority in order for it to still be in a position of power over aspects of your life.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Yeah, out of compulsion otherwise I go to the clink.

Your choice. ;)

Look, sometimes I don't like the idea of authority any more than you do (the example of the inspection sticker comes to mind - as well as my hard earned money going to support causes that I wouldn't choose myself via tax dollars) but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that we don't live under it's rules...or else, as you point out.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Your choice. ;)

Look, sometimes I don't like the idea of authority any more than you do (the example of the inspection sticker comes to mind - as well as my hard earned money going to support causes that I wouldn't choose myself via tax dollars) but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that we don't live under it's rules...or else, as you point out.

I haven't been following this thread, so I have no idea how it got on this subject. I just randomly chimed in.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I don't know the nature of your work, but let me put it this way - my husband and I are self employed, and yet we still have authority over us in the form of state and federal laws. We can choose to work, or not to work, and yet if we choose to work, we are subject to laws and/or regulations of some sort. Now - those may be disregarded but that doesn't mean that the laws don't apply - and whoever can apply them can choose whether or not to do so. Hence my statement "if they think it's worth their time and effort to apply those laws/rules, they can and probably will." And I'll add one more - often they SHOULD.

Like I said, it doesn't really MATTER whether or not you disregard the authority of those who have authority over you. They still have that authority - they may choose not to use it, or choose to postpone it, or whatever - but that authority is still there.



I wasn't talking about simply extending credit. If you use a debit card, or online banking, or any sort of banking services at all, you've submitted to the bank's authority to require that you provide proof of your identity, and that your accounts comply with state and federal laws. You've submitted to their authority to require signatures on new accounts. You've submitted to their authority to charge fees for various actions. Now - they may not have EXERCISED that authority - but it's still there. Of course, if they choose to exercise it and you don't like it, you can forego their services - but if you have a bank account at the moment - of any sort - you've agreed to comply with their authority - and with state and federal laws as well. You may NOT be complying - but when you use their services, you have agreed that they have a level of authority over your accounts and how you use their services.



But you said you only comply with rules that YOU think are reasonable. What if someone else drops their vehicle insurance because they don't think it's reasonable for them to have to carry it? (For the sake of argument, let's just say that, like someone I know, they've been driving for 50 years and have never had a ticket or an accident.) Is that OK with you? Would you or anyone else have the right to mandate that to them, and to hold them accountable if they don't carry insurance? Now - I'm not talking about if they're actually in an accident and hurt someone else or damage someone else's property - I'm just saying, is it anyone's right to force them to either 1) carry insurance or 2) be penalized?

See, here's why I don't think I'm overreaching at all. I'm sorry you can't see the connection, but I'll explain it to you. You only comply with rules that you think are reasonable, you say - though I do find it pretty hard to imagine anyone reaching adulthood without being extremely frustrated by mind boggling bureaucracy that they MUST comply with, sometimes without even fully understanding why, at one time or the other. For example - just the other day, my husband needed to get the inspection sticker for his new truck, which he had just bought the day before. The dealership had forgotten to put the sticker on there. It was 4:30 and we were across town and had lots of things to do before 5. It was a Friday afternoon. My husband has to leave at 4 am Monday morning to drive across the country, so he needs his inspection sticker. The dealership told us that we had to get there before 5 because it is against state law for them to issue an inspection sticker after 5 pm, or on the weekend.

So - guess what - we had to submit to that authority if we wanted the vehicle to be in compliance by 4 am Monday morning. We had to hoof it across town and get there before 5 regardless of what our other plans were, and in spite of the fact that we think it is VERY unreasonable of both the state and the dealership to be so time sensitive and anal about it, especially since the vehicle is new, it's already passed the inspection, and all that needed to be done was a sticker filled out and affixed to the window of the truck.

So - was the law reasonable? I don't think so. Do I agree with the law? Not with the information I have on hand. Could we have chosen to disregard the law? Yes. But would that have meant that the state ceased to have authority over us? No.

I'll take it one step further though - I'm mature enough to realize that there may in fact be a very valid reason for this particular law. I clearly don't have all the information I need to determine whether this is a hill worth dying on or not. Someone smarter than me - or at least smarter about vehicle inspections - may have an EXCELLENT reason for authoring, supporting, and enforcing this law. I'm not the smartest girl around, but I'm smart enough to know that there are people out there who have more information than me and therefore more wisdom than me in many areas.

It's the same thing to me with moral values. When I was a child, I didn't know a thing about STDs, date rape, the struggles of single mothers or fathers trying to raise children on their own, the hurtfulness of infidelity, or men having to go to the ER because hamsters were lodged up their colon. I did know, though, that touching myself in certain places felt great - and it's not too big a leap of the imagination to figure out that it would feel great for other people to touch me there as well!

Left to my own innocent devices, there's no telling what havoc I could have wreaked on the realm of human sexuality! But thankfully, I had the benefit of being taught some moral principles that have served me well when I've abided by them - and I was taught some of these long before I had any idea why they might be a better option than some other available options.

Maybe bureaucracy is more of a burden where you live than where I live, but all it took for me to get over the dent in my first paycheck was for my father to explain that income tax pays for the social infrastructure I have used every day of my life. All it took to get over the cost of car insurance was an accident. There are good, rational reasons for the rules I choose to obey, and I don't perceive laws and regulations as putting other individuals in charge of my own choices, as it seems you do.

I perceive the police and government agencies as my employees. They are hired by all of us to grease the wheels of society and keep us safe, and we can sack them if they fail to grasp the humility of their positions or meet our expectations.

I could choose to live without bureaucracy if I wanted to - there is a lot of elbow room up here - but I prefer to live among others and partake of the many conveniences society provides.

Anyway, this is all a matter of perception, which is highly subjective. There's no right or wrong here. You perceive individuals with political power as authorities to whom obedience is mandatory. I get it. I perceive individuals with political power as civil servants to whom obedience is optional, so long as you are willing to sacrifice certain privileges that obedience buys. Do you get that?
 
Maybe bureaucracy is more of a burden where you live than where I live, but all it took for me to get over the dent in my first paycheck was for my father to explain that income tax pays for the social infrastructure I have used every day of my life. All it took to get over the cost of car insurance was an accident. There are good, rational reasons for the rules I choose to obey, and I don't perceive laws and regulations as putting other individuals in charge of my own choices, as it seems you do.

I perceive the police and government agencies as my employees. They are hired by all of us to grease the wheels of society and keep us safe, and we can sack them if they fail to grasp the humility of their positions or meet our expectations.

I could choose to live without bureaucracy if I wanted to - there is a lot of elbow room up here - but I prefer to live among others and partake of the many conveniences society provides.

Anyway, this is all a matter of perception, which is highly subjective. There's no right or wrong here. You perceive individuals with political power as authorities to whom obedience is mandatory. I get it. I perceive individuals with political power as civil servants to whom obedience is optional, so long as you are willing to sacrifice certain privileges that obedience buys. Do you get that?

^This^
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You perceive individuals with political power as authorities to whom obedience is mandatory. I get it. I perceive individuals with political power as civil servants to whom obedience is optional, so long as you are willing to sacrifice certain privileges that obedience buys. Do you get that?

Well, you really don't get it but that's ok - maybe I didn't make myself all that clear. So thanks for the opportunity to clear up this misunderstanding. (I would hate for you to rephrase what you think I mean again. This can be confusing to anyone else reading along.)

I perceive MANY entities (not just political) as having varying degrees of authority over us. I don't believe that obedience to those authorities is mandatory - in fact, I think I made it very clear that we can choose whether or not to obey them, but often the choice to disobey carries consequences.

In my daily life, I pretty regularly "disobey authority" - like most logical adults, I often weigh the consequences and take it from there. I don't blindly follow any mandate "just because." However, I do follow some mandates simply because I know it's less hassle for me. And some I follow because I believe in their integrity and/or purpose.

And I follow some because though I may not fully understand the entire reason for the rule/law/policy, I have enough confidence in the authority in question to give that authority the benefit of the doubt, so to speak, until I can more fully understand the reason for the mandate. For instance, I don't to this day fully understand why inspection stickers cannot be issued when it's raining, but I'm pretty sure there's a good reason for that, rather than simply a capricious desire to mess with my life, so I won't fight that mandate.

This all reminds me of when people would come into the bank and they see the sign asking them to remove their sunglasses. Some people would just take their sunglasses off. Others would see the sign, but not take off their glasses till the reason was explained to them, and would then take them off immediately - and some would even express gratitude for the enforcement of this policy. A few times a year, a customer would tell us that they'd just had some sort of eye procedure and couldn't remove their glasses, and occasionally a customer would tell us that they were blind and always wore glasses, and we made exceptions in those cases. And about once a year, someone would get so rude and belligerent about it that they'd have to be asked to leave. And sometimes, we'd know who the customer was whether they were wearing sunglasses or not, and if there were not other customers around, we'd just let them slide.

But whether we let it go or not - the rule was still there, and it could always be applied, and if we so chose, someone refusing to comply could be refused service.

(By the way, if anyone is wondering - customers in many banks are asked to remove hats and sunglasses for identity/security purposes.)

Like I've been saying, there are varying responses to authority - but the authority is still there, whether it's recognized or not, or whether the rules are broken or obeyed.

But to answer your question - yes, I get what you're saying. I just don't agree with all of it.
 
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Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Regarding "Authorities" like bad governments and bad politicians, let's not forget it's the people who vote politicians into power in the first place, so the people themselves are to blame..:)
"Which is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?"- Obi Wan Kenobi
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Regarding "Authorities" like bad governments and bad politicians, let's not forget it's the people who vote politicians into power in the first place, so the people themselves are to blame..:)
"Which is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?"- Obi Wan Kenobi

Let's not forget there's no such thing as free will, so one could blame the manipulators of people just as easily as the people themselves.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Let's not forget there's no such thing as free will, so one could blame the manipulators of people just as easily as the people themselves.

I never voted for anybody for most of my life because none of the parties and candidates impressed me, so nobody "manipulated" me into voting..:)
For example I've always been against sending our troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, so whenever I saw a soldier coming home in a flag-draped coffin on the TV news, I thought "That's nothing to do with me because I never voted for the Parties that sent him to fight"

PS- in the last couple of years I've started voting for UKIP because they seem to have more sense than any other parties..:)
 
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