1robin
Christian/Baptist
Man I like you. You appreciate humor and we do not have to spend all day in heavy subjects. It is a nice break.A single tear rolls down my cheek as i read your truly appreciated compliment.
May the Shwartz be with You.
Dan
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The bright side of Atheism
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I had no idea Jar Jar would produce this much bizarre conversation. You said he was a stereotype of Jah - along. How did he represent God and everything along with him?
I am really trying to at least get what you are saying. So far I haven't? Maybe dumb it down a bit.
Jar Jar was a racial stereotype of what?
I see theological relevance in just about everything but it never occurred to me with a Gungan.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Noooo -I said Jar Jar was either a play on the word "Jah"......................., etc.............................................
....................................................................
orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........ the whole character was coincidentally "Jamaicanesque" -and I'm not the only person to think so.
It is true that my use of punctuation was quite poor, however -and I'm going to assume you are just poking fun at this point.
:thud:
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outhouse
Atheistically
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I have never been able to determine if that is a literal or analogous teaching so I do not know if there is an analogy in need of defending. The first five books to me are one big question mark beyond some generalities.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I will accept that but I just don't see it. The only connection I see is a desperate one about the ears being a type of dread locks but I will leave that up to others. I am neutral on Jar Jar. I can take him or leave him. When is the new movie coming out anyway?
Don't remember making any punctuation remarks but if I did I was kidding. I am the worst typist ever.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Well, in that case rock on.Did not say it was
But it gets under muslims skin for some reason
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Apparently you mistook "Jah -along" where the dash was a pause in my mind -with"Jah-along" where it was a hyphenated thingy
Maybe I've just experienced more "Caribbean" folks in life and movies than some.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure it's both. It involved actual food, and eating the food was literally disobedience..... but, figuratively, when they disobeyed by eating the food, they also ate of the knowledge of good and evil because they knew only good before they disobeyed (though they were told what not to do, so knew OF evil in a very basic sense) -then began to know and experience evil firsthand afterward.
They obeyed Satan before God -so they broke the first commandment -even though there was probably nothing wrong with the fruit itself -as Eve saw that it was good for food.
She also saw that eating of the tree could make her wise -which.... in some ways... is correct.
It's just that being wise and knowing about everything evil isn't as good as knowing only good. It also led to the world as we know it.
The point is that God can tell and explain all he wants -but people don't know he is who he says he is, etc., and want to see and experience for themselves.
This is why it is said he gave the creation over to futility in hope.... the hope being that after they experience not obeying God, they will then be prepared to do so.
God even says it made them like God in a way -as God knew of both good and evil (but God knows it all thoroughly and perfectly, as he made all things and knows what will harm the creation.
Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Because they began to do and know evil, he kept them from immortality for the time being. Immortal beings doing evil would create all sorts of misery forever.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
I was actually on the fence until I saw "all the rest" after along. So I thought you were saying God and all the rest. I am certainly no Caribbean expert. Outside reading about pirates and voodoo I am at a loss. No harm no foul, carry on!!!!!!Apparently you mistook "Jah -along" where the dash was a pause in my mind -with"Jah-along" where it was a hyphenated thingy
Maybe I've just experienced more "Caribbean" folks in life and movies than some.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I had a teacher for lit - 2 I think. The first day of class he jumped on his desk and said the bible was wrong. I thought oh Lord here we go even though I was not a theist at the time. He said there was no apple tree. A gasp went up in the bible belt class room. He said it was a apricot. I thought he gives a s#$%. Now that I am a Christian I still wonder why it matters. I decided I have no need to decide. However no known fruit gives anyone a knowledge of right and wrong, so I lean figuratively.
Why would God or even Satan place the destiny of a hundred billion on fruit? Even when a literalist I thought literal fruit was to trivialize the issue.
I have eaten a million apples and am still as dumb as I can get by with.
Our world is a little worse than that. It isn't that we don't know about what is right. It is that we don't care, we do what is wrong even if it kills a billion lives in the womb, and call it progress. Or we build weapons to end all known life and claim we are enlightened. Chesterton said all men can agree on what is wrong, they only disagree on what wrongs to excuse.
That is possibly true but it doe snot require any fruit.
In that case the tree was incidental to the lesson. It could have been anything?
Again no requirement for fruit here.
Could have taken place given any prohibition.
I have no idea but the tree seems to be a place holder for any decision we make and is incidental even if true. I think we suffer no loss in taking the lesson without making any determination on the object it perhaps involved. That last part was incite full and one I had never considered. I lurk predominately in the NT and while read many times, most of the arguments over of the Pentateuch, to others. Look forward to seeing you in the more theological discussions in the future.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Eve saw that the tree -whatever it was -was good FOR FOOD -and also "a tree to be desired to make one wise",
This is not to say that Eve knew what she was talking about. She was naive and had just been deceived, after all. What she SAW was false. If she truly understood what WISDOM of that nature would cause, she would probably not have chosen it. However, due to her inexperience -knowing only that one being said one thing and another being said another -she made a choice.
A tree bears fruit. The tree of life bears fruit that is only good/causes only good. The other bears fruit that is both evil and good/causes both evil and good.
One is the government of God. The other is essentially having other gods before God -because you can't really take God completely out of the equation.
The fruit -unless it was something we might call a brain food -didn't necessarily have any properties of itself to cause wisdom. The wisdom came by experiencing disobeying God.
The tree could have been be anything -and is essentially everything outside the government of God -which produces only good -whether we initially know it or believe it.
God knew that the issue would need to be addressed -and is perhaps the most important issue that can possibly be addressed, because it affects the state of all things for all time.
Therefore HE addressed it initially as much as possible -with the angels first -then with man -and continues to address it continually as much as possible.
In scripture, God often tells men that he will do one thing if they do the right thing -and another thing if they do the wrong thing.
Doing the wrong thing is a long miserable path that we have the ability to choose -but that he will still turn back to perfection.
Doing right is the fast track.
The goal of all of this is that we actually DO become LIKE GOD -in essentially all ways except level of authority and power -and even in KNOWING good and evil -but this did not HAVE to come by PERSONAL experience.
Still -it is perhaps certain that it eventually WOULD have come by personal experience.
(God necessarily retains the highest levels of authority and power. Otherwise, Satan's coup could have been successful.)
"Our world is a little worse than that. It isn't that we don't know about what is right. It is that we don't care, we do what is wrong even if it kills a billion lives in the womb, and call it progress. Or we build weapons to end all known life and claim we are enlightened..................."
Yup.
"I have no idea but the tree seems to be a place holder for any decision we make and is incidental even if true. I think we suffer no loss in taking the lesson without making any determination on the object it perhaps involved."
True -but it had to be one thing or another initially -and is certainly representative of all things always.
This is not to say that Eve knew what she was talking about. She was naive and had just been deceived, after all. What she SAW was false. If she truly understood what WISDOM of that nature would cause, she would probably not have chosen it. However, due to her inexperience -knowing only that one being said one thing and another being said another -she made a choice.
A tree bears fruit. The tree of life bears fruit that is only good/causes only good. The other bears fruit that is both evil and good/causes both evil and good.
One is the government of God. The other is essentially having other gods before God -because you can't really take God completely out of the equation.
The fruit -unless it was something we might call a brain food -didn't necessarily have any properties of itself to cause wisdom. The wisdom came by experiencing disobeying God.
The tree could have been be anything -and is essentially everything outside the government of God -which produces only good -whether we initially know it or believe it.
God knew that the issue would need to be addressed -and is perhaps the most important issue that can possibly be addressed, because it affects the state of all things for all time.
Therefore HE addressed it initially as much as possible -with the angels first -then with man -and continues to address it continually as much as possible.
In scripture, God often tells men that he will do one thing if they do the right thing -and another thing if they do the wrong thing.
Doing the wrong thing is a long miserable path that we have the ability to choose -but that he will still turn back to perfection.
Doing right is the fast track.
The goal of all of this is that we actually DO become LIKE GOD -in essentially all ways except level of authority and power -and even in KNOWING good and evil -but this did not HAVE to come by PERSONAL experience.
Still -it is perhaps certain that it eventually WOULD have come by personal experience.
(God necessarily retains the highest levels of authority and power. Otherwise, Satan's coup could have been successful.)
"Our world is a little worse than that. It isn't that we don't know about what is right. It is that we don't care, we do what is wrong even if it kills a billion lives in the womb, and call it progress. Or we build weapons to end all known life and claim we are enlightened..................."
Yup.
"I have no idea but the tree seems to be a place holder for any decision we make and is incidental even if true. I think we suffer no loss in taking the lesson without making any determination on the object it perhaps involved."
True -but it had to be one thing or another initially -and is certainly representative of all things always.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Well trees are hard pressed to be both. Analogous trees can be both and so that is the understanding that harmonizes both.
Having to incorporate that much complexity is another reason I think the story was about sinning and not about any specific sin. IOW everyone when told not to do X at least is tempted to say "well why not" if no answer is given many will do X in order to find out.
That is probably true but I don't see the relevance.
You have gone one step beyond me. I said X is a metaphor for y. You say it is and y is z. You might be right but your taking more liberties than I am willing to or have a need for.
That would fit into my interpretation as well.
I think will of God more appropriate than government.
I believe it was freewill. Freewill is not free if it can not be used for the opposite intent. Adam and eve were perfect representative sin that we all use freewill incorrectly.
I can go along here.
Definitely can here.
Usually is but at times can be a short one.
Many times it is the slow, hard, and even boring track but never the wrong track.
I don't see how we could not have. Every single one of us rebels. Now God did not have to grant freewill, but given freewill I expect exactly this kind of world. I also think we metaphorically should be like God but technically will not get close in this life. Anything starting at the finite will never be infinite no matter how fast it progresses.
You mean that if Adam and Even hadn't failed then someone eventually would have. Maybe, but I have never seen anyone that goes a day without failure.
I think he is the higher power, I don't think he had to fight to retain it.
You do not quote what you respond to so I left without context here.
Well this much agreement is a little unsettling in a debate.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying God had to fight to retain power, as such. He knew another could fight for his power or to remove him from his position -and made certain it was not actually a possibility that any created being could overpower him.
Two thirds of the angels remained without sin/rebellion -though I'm not certain about honest mistakes/trial and error, etc. -not sure what it's really like to be one. Just going by the scriptures.
"Our world is a little worse than that. It isn't that we don't know about what is right. It is that we don't care, we do what is wrong even if it kills a billion lives in the womb, and call it progress. Or we build weapons to end all known life and claim we are enlightened..................."
The above was a quote from someone else -and I agreed.
As for the fast track and the long miserable journey.... if Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would not have been cast out of the garden -cut off from the tree of life, etc. -and if this had continued with all generations, we could have advanced much more quickly.
While God chooses which knowledge he shares, he is able to impart knowledge -even talents -without a human necessarily learning those things......
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Two thirds of the angels remained without sin/rebellion -though I'm not certain about honest mistakes/trial and error, etc. -not sure what it's really like to be one. Just going by the scriptures.
"Our world is a little worse than that. It isn't that we don't know about what is right. It is that we don't care, we do what is wrong even if it kills a billion lives in the womb, and call it progress. Or we build weapons to end all known life and claim we are enlightened..................."
The above was a quote from someone else -and I agreed.
As for the fast track and the long miserable journey.... if Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would not have been cast out of the garden -cut off from the tree of life, etc. -and if this had continued with all generations, we could have advanced much more quickly.
While God chooses which knowledge he shares, he is able to impart knowledge -even talents -without a human necessarily learning those things......
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
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Majikthise
nude
Oh , I'm sorry.
I thought this was the bright side of atheism.
Haha, silly me.
I thought this was the bright side of atheism.
Haha, silly me.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Close enough for concurrence.
Agreed.
Chesterton said most know what is right, we just disagree on which wrongs to excuse.
So was my response.
That is like saying if athletes never made mistakes they would all perform perfectly. True, but not possible. When one very unique individual out of maybe hundreds billions alone has a credible claim to perfection I don't give the rest of us much shot at it.
I think that is theoretically possible.
Are we debating anything, or are we just haggling over details of the same narrative?
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Well we couldn't find one, so we had to improvise.
Bright sides of atheism:
- Sleeping in on Sundays
- No scripture to memorize
- The joys of pork, shellfish, & cheeseburgers
- No tithing
- Driving cars & using electric lighting on Saturday
- No appeal in martyrdom
- None of those judgmental Emeters
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I can sleep till 9:30 and still make church if I even go. Sleeping past 9:30 is a liability not a bright side.
Again a liability. It is good to know stuff about things.
No Christian has a single prohibition against any one of these.
Since the return of the investment is far greater than an IRA or gold also a liability.
Not an issue for 99% of Christians and shouldn't for the rest.
Or having no convictions worthy of a price. Actually I will give you this one. At least from your view and mine on most days this one is a little inconvenient. However being that self sacrifice is honored as the greatest human attribute your not making a persuasive case.
I have no external ones. However judging others as Hitchens states is the central joy of his life. So your just as stuck with this one or more so than the average Christian.
I will abstain from taking the easy cheap shot of heaven and hell.
Your sort of like claiming the bright side of forgetting your parachute was the freefell. Maybe but it won't end well.