The Brutal Math Of Poverty

[Magic Man]

Fair comment. The answer will involve government to be sure. I again point to Europe as an example of what can happen when governments use their considerable clout to provide for the poor. Consider France or Sweden as examples. Although not perfect countries, nobody ever has to worry about getting sick. If they become unemployed, there are transition programs to keep you afloat while you're looking for new work and a comprehensive strategy for retraining and education. Yes, they have higher taxes than in the United States, but they don't have to pay for HMOs, so really, it's a wash. And they get better outcomes.

In England, you pay about ten bucks for prescription meds, no matter what the meds!

Some countries provide free university education.

Some countries have a comprehensive social housing policy including targets for building. As a result, such countries as Holland and Sweden have almost no homeless people.

And, contrary to what right-wing nutjobs in North America think, these countries are not socialist wastelands. They consistently outperform the United States per capita in terms of productivity and corporate R&D.

In Switzerland, companies make sure employees are highly trained and educated. This goes to their corporate culture, although I'm sure there must be some government involvement somewhere. But in any case, the workers there receive constant professional development and technical training.

Such initiatives provide an environment where such things as hard work and taking responsibility (your mantra) will actually do some good.

Check out Denmark. I remarked a while back in one of these threads that Denmark has a 2% unemployment rate, which is the lowest of any major country in the world, they have socialized healthcare and education, and they have one of the lowest Gini scores in the world, meaning their wealth is distributed somewhat evenly among the entire population, instead of having 10% of the population hold 80% of the wealth in the country. And their average taxes are 49.6%. All this and still in a recent survey, Denmark was deemed to be the happiest country on Earth.

EDIT: Well, I see Alceste beat me to it. Great minds think alike, I guess. It seems to me that Denmark really is the standard.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Check out Denmark. I remarked a while back in one of these threads that Denmark has a 2% unemployment rate, which is the lowest of any major country in the world, they have socialized healthcare and education, and they have one of the lowest Gini scores in the world, meaning their wealth is distributed somewhat evenly among the entire population, instead of having 10% of the population hold 80% of the wealth in the country. And their average taxes are 49.6%. All this and still in a recent survey, Denmark was deemed to be the happiest country on Earth.

EDIT: Well, I see Alceste beat me to it. Great minds think alike, I guess. It seems to me that Denmark really is the standard.

Gee, what happens when you sneak across the border into their country?

 

[Magic Man]

Why is that? Have you ever read the book, "In search of excellence"?

In a nut shell, it teaches that if your job is scrubbing toilets, make them the most shiny bowls in town. If you mop floors, make them shine. People who go beyond the call of duty get noticed, people who do the least possible do not.

Still love those generalizations, huh? Yes, do the best you can. Just don't expect it to get you anywhere. It might, or it might not. The difference is luck. Just because you make the floors shine every day doesn't mean you're ever going to get the opportunity to make a better living (assuming you want to, since there's nothing actually wrong with doing those jobs).

 

[Magic Man]

Gee, what happens when you sneak across the border into their country?

Yes, I know how much you love that argument. You still haven't explained why it means anything at all. If you're implying we need better border security to make things work, then let's get better border security. If you're implying something else, you'll have to actually explain.

 

[DallasApple]

Gee, what happens when you sneak across the border into their country?

I guess all our homeless don't have a boat or an airplane..I dont know.Or maybe they never heard of Denmark.Who knows..

Love

Dallas

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes, I know how much you love that argument. You still haven't explained why it means anything at all. If you're implying we need better border security to make things work, then let's get better border security. If you're implying something else, you'll have to actually explain.

I have never been one to mince words. I cannot service my guests with cake and ice cream if I do not know how many guests are going to attend my party.

We need a secure border for more reasons than people sneaking across. Guns, drugs, perhaps terrorists with WMD's, gangs, people being abducted........

First off, I wish all you socialists would immigrate to other countries. If we are going to ruin capitalism so under performers can catch up with the rest of us, I want to cut the check and be done with it.

Socialism in America will never work unless we define who Americans are, count how many of us there are, and put a price tag on what it is going to cost ALL OF US, not SOME OF US. You see, once we become socialists, you no longer can put the burden of paying everything on someone else. The buck stops with you now.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Check out Denmark. I remarked a while back in one of these threads that Denmark has a 2% unemployment rate, which is the lowest of any major country in the world, they have socialized healthcare and education, and they have one of the lowest Gini scores in the world, meaning their wealth is distributed somewhat evenly among the entire population, instead of having 10% of the population hold 80% of the wealth in the country. And their average taxes are 49.6%. All this and still in a recent survey, Denmark was deemed to be the happiest country on Earth.

EDIT: Well, I see Alceste beat me to it. Great minds think alike, I guess. It seems to me that Denmark really is the standard.

When 98% of the people pay taxes @ 49.6% to make things work in Denmark, the United States would have a tax rate of 98.2% because only half of American pay any income tax while the other half say they cannot afford to pay.

You are ignoring that Denmark has 98% of their people who are productive and educated pulling their own weight while sharing the wealth.

So, would you be in favor of every American paying the same tax rate of 49.6%?

 

[Magic Man]

I have never been one to mince words. I cannot service my guests with cake and ice cream if I do not know how many guests are going to attend my party.

We need a secure border for more reasons than people sneaking across. Guns, drugs, perhaps terrorists with WMD's, gangs, people being abducted........

Great, but what does this have to do with Denmark? So, they have more secure borders. Let's do that, then. There, problem solved.

First off, I wish all you socialists would immigrate to other countries. If we are going to ruin capitalism so under performers can catch up with the rest of us, I want to cut the check and be done with it.

"ruin capitalism", now that's a good one. Pure capitalism ruins itself, as we have witnessed. I'd love for all of you pure capitalists to immigrate elsewhere, too.

Socialism in America will never work unless we define who Americans are, count how many of us there are, and put a price tag on what it is going to cost ALL OF US, not SOME OF US. You see, once we become socialists, you no longer can put the burden of paying everything on someone else. The buck stops with you now.

First, that's fine. What makes you think that contradicts socialism? Second, we should have some socialistic features, like Denmark, but also like Denmark we shouldn't be completely socialist. Capitalism has its place, as long as it's not allowed to run wild and completely free.

I don't want to put the burden of paying for something on someone else. I am perfectly happy doing my share. I have no problem paying taxes, even though I can barely afford them right now. The buck should stop with everybody, including you and me.

 

[Zephyr]

When 98% of the people pay taxes @ 49.6% to make things work in Denmark, the United States would have a tax rate of 98.2% because only half of American pay any income tax while the other half say they cannot afford to pay.

You are ignoring that Denmark has 98% of their people who are productive and educated pulling their own weight while sharing the wealth.

So, would you be in favor of every American paying the same tax rate of 49.6%?

In Denmark everybody pays taxes because they are capable of doing so, thanks to extremely low income inequality. Looks like there's another thing we should be working on, rather than having the top 10% of Americans owning the vast majority of American wealth.

 

[Magic Man]

When 98% of the people pay taxes @ 49.6% to make things work in Denmark, the United States would have a tax rate of 98.2% because only half of American pay any income tax while the other half say they cannot afford to pay.

Actually, 49.6% is the average taxes paid by citizens. So, 100% of the popluation there pays 49.6%. Some pay as much as 63%.

Now that we've got that straight, let's move on to your desperate, feable attempt at twisting numbers. More than 50% of the American population pays taxes. However, the top 50% pays the vast majority of the taxes because they make the vast majority of the money. This leads back to the Gini number. Denmark has very evenly distributed wealth, meaning that the top half of the population only pays slightly higher than half of the taxes. If you don't want the top 50% of Americans to pay the vast majority of the taxes, then you must support evening out the wealth.

You are ignoring that Denmark has 98% of their people who are productive and educated pulling their own weight while sharing the wealth.

No, I'm not. You're ignoring that America could have the same percentage of its people productive and educated if it weren't so scared of anything socialist and if it weren't so attached to pure, unadulterated capitalism. If we did everything else like them, we'd have 98% of our population being productive and educated.

So, would you be in favor of every American paying the same tax rate of 49.6%?

No, I'd be in favor of that being the average tax rate, though, since that's what it is in Denmark. According to some numbers I've seen, their rates go from 42% to 63%.

 

[DallasApple]

When 98% of the people pay taxes @ 49.6% to make things work in Denmark, the United States would have a tax rate of 98.2% because only half of American pay any income tax while the other half say they cannot afford to pay.

You are ignoring that Denmark has 98% of their people who are productive and educated pulling their own weight while sharing the wealth.

So, would you be in favor of every American paying the same tax rate of 49.6%?

I would..We are already paying 30 something percent..I would rather bump that up a notch and have healthcare no questions asked and higher education available to anyone who wants it.

I honestly believe it would SAVE me money to pay more taxes and have "free" healthcare and my children could go to college for "free".

Love

Dallas

 

[Magic Man]

I honestly believe it would SAVE me money to pay more taxes and have "free" healthcare and my children could go to college for "free".

Love

Dallas

Especially since these days, a bachelor's degree is about the equivalent of a high school diploma 30 years ago. A college education isn't worth what it used to be, and yet it costs ridiculously more.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The thing is, we are not Denmark. Many of our citizens are substandard to them. When everyone does not pull their weight, it puts an undue burden on others. Something would have to give. We would have less quality health care or we would have to pay higher taxes than they do.

Denmark does not have state, county, and city tax. Sales tax, gas tax, liquor tax, cigarette tax, resturant tax........you get the picture. One day we will be taxed at 110% and all go to jail for tax evasion.

 

[Zephyr]

We Americans are all lazy except for the rich people, and that's why socialism is evil and will ruin America. Next thing you know they'll be taxing your air!

Edit: Welp, did the math, and unless I get really lucky, I can't afford my medication for next month. Gotta love American healthcare.

 

[DallasApple]

Especially since these days, a bachelor's degree is about the equivalent of a high school diploma 30 years ago. A college education isn't worth what it used to be, and yet it costs ridiculously more.

I undertand..All I know is if you added up the money we have spent WITH insurance on medical bills for relaiively healthy people with with the ups and downs of health for a family of 5 including dental....and it cost about 1000,000(and thats cheap) to put a kid through college and if you have 3 kids..Its CHEAPER to pay more in taxes if you want to be healthy and educated.

For instance do you know I paid $600 for a mammogram??That was a routine test .On top of the fact I had INSURANCE.(which cost 450 a month)

I would rather pay more in taxes than have to face not getting medical treatment or my children not getting educated or going broke trying to achieve that.Along with everyone else.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

The thing is, we are not Denmark. Many of our citizens are substandard to them. When everyone does not pull their weight, it puts an undue burden on others. Something would have to give. We would have less quality health care or we would have to pay higher taxes than they do.

Denmark does not have state, county, and city tax. Sales tax, gas tax, liquor tax, cigarette tax, resturant tax........you get the picture. One day we will be taxed at 110% and all go to jail for tax evasion.

With all due respect..How are more Denmark citizens somehow more willing or in fact "pulling their weight" over that of Americans?

Love

Dallas

 

[Reverend Rick]

With all due respect..How are more Denmark citizens somehow more willing or in fact "pulling their weight" over that of Americans?

Love

Dallas

By having gainful employment and an education.

 

[Zephyr]

By having gainful employment and an education.

You do realize that Denmark's socialist elements are what allows Danes to achieve this, right?

 

[Alceste]

First off, I wish all you socialists would immigrate to other countries. If we are going to ruin capitalism so under performers can catch up with the rest of us, I want to cut the check and be done with it.

First, I already live in another country. I just like to point out the failings in yours.

Second, the economic system in Denmark is free market capitalism, and they outperform the US by 20 %.

Try to keep up.

 

[rojse]

You do realize that Denmark's socialist elements are what allows Danes to achieve this, right?

No. Rick cannot sense the supreme irony here.