The Brutal Math Of Poverty

[Magic Man]

So the people who just lost their 401ks, and/or got layed off, and/or lost their medical/dental benefits, and/or had their pensions suspended, and/or got evicted because their landlaords went into foreclosure,...these people had all this coming?

Zephyr was just kidding, Quag.

 

[Zephyr]

So the people who just lost their 401ks, and/or got layed off, and/or lost their medical/dental benefits, and/or had their pensions suspended, and/or got evicted because their landlaords went into foreclosure,...these people had all this coming?

Of course. They just needed to pull their bootstraps a bit harder rather than whining. It's really all the fault of their modern entitlement mentality. Maybe if they would have worked a bit harder and made their own luck they'd be millionaires. They still wouldn't be rich though, because millionaires sit pretty firmly in the middle class.

 

[Quagmire]

Zephyr was just kidding, Quag.

I should have known that (sorry Zephyr). :foot:

Of course. They just needed to pull their bootstraps a bit harder rather than whining. It's really all the fault of their modern entitlement mentality. Maybe if they would have worked a bit harder and made their own luck they'd be millionaires. They still wouldn't be rich though, because millionaires sit pretty firmly in the middle class.

What if they can't afford bootstraps, Zephyr? Huh? Ever think of that? No, of course not. Nobody ever does. Nobody ever stops to think, "Gee, I wonder if I should donate my old bootstraps to some poor person so they can pull themselves up". And here we are....surrounded by poor people....with no bootstraps.

And we call ourselves civilized.

 

[Zephyr]

What if they can't afford bootstraps, Zephyr? Huh? Ever think of that? No, of course not. Nobody ever does. Nobody ever stops to think, "Gee, I wonder if I should donate my old bootstraps to some poor person so they can pull themselves up". And here we are....surrounded by poor people....with no bootstraps.

And we call ourselves civilized.

If they can't afford bootstraps, then they just need to bootstrap harder.

Bootstraps!

 

[Quagmire]

If they can't afford bootstraps, then they just need to bootstrap harder.

Bootstraps!

How can we expect them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps if they don't have bootstraps!?

It isn't physically possible!

It breaks my heart to walk through the poorer sections of town and see all these poor people reaching down to their ankles and trying to pull themselves up by bootstraps that aren't there! Can you imagine how frustrating that must be?

No wonder they drink so much.

 

[Zephyr]

How can we expect them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps if they don't have bootstraps!?

It isn't physically possible!

It breaks my heart to walk through the poorer sections of town and see all these poor people reaching down to their ankles and trying to pull themselves up by bootstraps that aren't there! Can you imagine how frustrating that must be?

No wonder they drink so much.

They spend all their money on booze and smokes, when they could have been buying bootstraps. It's their own fault.

 

[Quagmire]

They spend all their money on booze and smokes, when they could have been buying bootstraps. It's their own fault.

It's not their fault. They just don't understand economics.

 

[Dunemeister]

You attack my thoughts but let's hear yours. What solutions do you see as viable? I'm going to wager it has to do with government programs am I right? Is there ANY onus on the people?

Fair comment. The answer will involve government to be sure. I again point to Europe as an example of what can happen when governments use their considerable clout to provide for the poor. Consider France or Sweden as examples. Although not perfect countries, nobody ever has to worry about getting sick. If they become unemployed, there are transition programs to keep you afloat while you're looking for new work and a comprehensive strategy for retraining and education. Yes, they have higher taxes than in the United States, but they don't have to pay for HMOs, so really, it's a wash. And they get better outcomes.

In England, you pay about ten bucks for prescription meds, no matter what the meds!

Some countries provide free university education.

Some countries have a comprehensive social housing policy including targets for building. As a result, such countries as Holland and Sweden have almost no homeless people.

And, contrary to what right-wing nutjobs in North America think, these countries are not socialist wastelands. They consistently outperform the United States per capita in terms of productivity and corporate R&D.

In Switzerland, companies make sure employees are highly trained and educated. This goes to their corporate culture, although I'm sure there must be some government involvement somewhere. But in any case, the workers there receive constant professional development and technical training.

Such initiatives provide an environment where such things as hard work and taking responsibility (your mantra) will actually do some good.

Please don't ever take a position of leadership over young people.

Too late! I teach them interdependence, not lone-rangerism. I teach them that they are in fact their brother's keeper. I don't teach them that those who can't make it are somehow irresponsible, stupid, retarded, or otherwise deficient. Why? Because it's not my place to judge. Instead, I teach people to look out for each other, which is a far cry better than feeding the myth that hard work always pays off. Hard work, for most people, simply doesn't pay off.

And before you say so, I'm not arguing that people shouldn't work hard and live responsibly. I'm pointing out that hard work and responsibility are not sufficient to make your way out of poverty. Inevitably, it's a team effort to alleviate poverty.

Public health clinics? You mean clinics they don't have to pay for? I thought there wasn't any help out there!

I didn't say that. I said there wasn't enough.

If you can't mail an evelope [assuming a functioning body] you are INCOMPETENT. Tom Whittaker, an amputee, almost climbed the entire height of Mt. Everest and this guy can't mail a ****ing letter?

It's not about physical ability. It's about whether the person could afford the time and effort at the time. Once again, you simply assume the worst of the person. I don't think he's a saint; I'm simply not going to judge him without further ado. And my experience working with and living among the poor has taught me that, by and large, they are among the most ingenious, industrious, and creative people you'd ever meet. Yet they are still poor. That leads me to think that, even granting there's something wrong with them and the way they run their lives, there is something amiss in our culture, and we need to take action on a cultural level.

 

[Alceste]

I gave my last pair of bootstraps to a Guatemalan orphan girl who had her little brother to look after. They were living in a rotting crocodile by the side of a tailings pond. It was the least I could do.

 

[Quagmire]

I gave my last pair of bootstraps to a Guatemalan orphan girl who had her little brother to look after. They were living in a rotting crocodile by the side of a tailings pond. It was the least I could do.

That's commendable, Alceste, but you'd have been doing her an even bigger favor by showing her how to make bootstraps out of crocodile hide (those are some of the toughest).

 

[Alceste]

Consider France or Sweden as examples. Although not perfect countries, nobody ever has to worry about getting sick. If they become unemployed, there are transition programs to keep you afloat while you're looking for new work and a comprehensive strategy for retraining and education. Yes, they have higher taxes than in the United States, but they don't have to pay for HMOs, so really, it's a wash. And they get better outcomes.

That reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend from Denmark. There isn't any homelessness there at all, they have socialized health care, university, subsidized housing, it sounded like paradise when she described it to me. And, on top of that, their GDP is 15 to 20 % higher than the US and surveys have repeatedly found they are the happiest people in the world.

I suppose that means America needs to stop sitting around on the couch all day feeling sorry for itself, eating chicken wings it can't afford and looking for a handout.

 

[Zephyr]

In England, you pay about ten bucks for prescription meds, no matter what the meds!

Seriously? I had to jump through some pretty tight hoops to reduce the costs of my seroquel, and even then it costs me way more than I'm comfortable with (and it's not exactly something I can avoid taking). Apparently it's a bit cheaper in Canada since the patent is expired, but seriously, 10 bucks?

 

[DallasApple]

Hi, Stranger,

Speaking from experience, the concept of how much you save, how thrifty and clever you are with your wages, and how you haggle for deals on luxury items is totally irrelevant to the topic of survival below the poverty line. None of these issues are on the radar at all for the poor. When I was on welfare, for example, one month's check paid for my rent and electricity and three weeks worth of food (not a month) assuming I ate nothing but plain rice, or spaghetti noodles in garlic and butter on a fancy occasion. When the cash ran out before the end of the month, as it always did, I ate nothing. I hope that's clear enough. There was no "saving money", and no opportunity to be frugal with my purchases because there were no purchases, apart from food. A "holiday" was an afternoon loitering in the city park.

Now, I'm not complaining, I chose to try to live on welfare because I wanted to write a book and my savings ran out before I finished it. And I wouldn't trade it in, because being able to sit and write stories full-time was one of the most satisfying experiences of my life thus far. But, eventually my glasses broke. There is no way to replace something like that on welfare unless you want to spend a whole month with no food or electricity, possibly sleeping in a box, so the honeymoon ended and I got a job.

When I'm working I'm fortunate in that I can usually score a job that pays about double the minimum wage, and so allows me the flexibility to buy things, save money and go on holidays, just like you. After being on welfare, though, it STILL took me a year to be able to replace my glasses, because things tend to back up when you're on welfare - you end up with only one outfit and holes in your shoes, a few months behind on the bills, not to mention repaying friends who didn't like the idea of you going without food for a week out of every month and so offered some assistance. Not to mention suddenly being able to afford to be the person who helps out your friends who are still on welfare.

AND this is in Canada, where we're supposed to be socialists compared to the US. God only knows what it's like to be on welfare down there. From what I understand it's hell, that's if you can get on it to begin with.

Anyway, I'm thinking that when you say "poor", you mean "as poor as I, never having been poor, can imagine anybody else being". That is to say, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

AWESOME POST!!!

And I would buy your book..and I would chersih it....Your are the bomb.You are so well spoken..and I can invision what you speak of and feel it even though I never lived that.

Love

Dallas

 

[Zephyr]

That reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend from Denmark. There isn't any homelessness there at all, they have socialized health care, university, subsidized housing, it sounded like paradise when she described it to me. And, on top of that, their GDP is 15 to 20 % higher than the US and surveys have repeatedly found they are the happiest people in the world.

I suppose that means America needs to stop sitting around on the couch all day feeling sorry for itself, eating chicken wings it can't afford and looking for a handout.

Denmark also stands up there with Japan as the two countries with the lowest economic inequality, attacking the root causes of crime. If only Danish weren't so crazy of a language
Rød grød med fløde

 

[Alceste]

AWESOME POST!!!

And I would buy your book..and I would chersih it....Your are the bomb.You are so well spoken..and I can invision what you speak of and feel it even though I never lived that.

Love

Dallas

Aw shucks, thanks Dallas. :flirt: If I ever finish one I'll send it to you for free in exchange for all the flattery. I hope you don't mind if it turns out to be a paranormal romance between a single mom and a Catholic priest, or else something about fairies. Those are the ones that are closest to done.

 

[DallasApple]

Aw shucks, thanks Dallas. :flirt: If I ever finish one I'll send it to you for free in exchange for all the flattery. I hope you don't mind if it turns out to be a paranormal romance between a single mom and a Catholic priest, or else something about fairies. Those are the ones that are closest to done.

No..I dont "mind" and I will send you the postage..You are brilliant.:yes:

I like single moms and priest stories..It sounds more like reality than a fairy story to me.PLUS I believe ghost sprits are floatting around...Just my kind of story !!!

Let me know Im not kidden..I'll send you my address..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

I remember as a child the closest we ever got to "poverty" that is in a sense of not having a "basic"...Well ..we went hungry for a few meals here and there.Even though money was going out for other things.I hate to critisze my mother..but it was more or less her not "planning" or wanting more than we could afford.Or just not focussing on things like kids need to eat lunch..and stuff like that.I never "starved"..as long as I was at home there was something to eat.

Im just saying ..I know a teeny tiny bit not a lot about being hungry and there is no way to get food..And you watch other people eat and you pretend you arent hungry.Adn the shame is..the money was there.

Love

Dallas

 

[Quagmire]

Poverty doesn't have to be brutal.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-discussion/52757-rich-man-poor-man.html

 

[DallasApple]

Oh and the electricity went out.Many times.Mama always said "she forgot to pay the bill".

Love

Dallas

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes, that's true. That's the problem with everyone other than you. You're right. No need to look at it except with broad generalizations. No need to realize that some people just don't get a break in life at all.

Why is that? Have you ever read the book, "In search of excellence"?

In a nut shell, it teaches that if your job is scrubbing toilets, make them the most shiny bowls in town. If you mop floors, make them shine. People who go beyond the call of duty get noticed, people who do the least possible do not.