The Cause for Poverty

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What about this idea?
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

If he's near water. And teaching about sowing and reaping works too, so long as there's no droughts and locusts.

 

[BSM1]

I would like that to be true. However, once you get people willing to pay higher prices, I don't think companies are going to cut back on those prices.

Maybe if the government were to tie tax cuts to price reductions. Once the government screws things up, it takes a lot of effort/work to fix it.

Already been an instance on record. Not to go into a great deal of detail, but a few years back Congress failed, by accident, to renew a levy on the airlines that expired on Dec 31 of that particular year. By noon of Jan 1 one major airline had reduced it's fares accordingly. By four o'clock that afternoon the rest of the major airlines had followed suit. Don't fool yourself, business is not for the faint of heart...

 

[BSM1]

My personal stance on this is that if you have enough money for you and all your family to live comfortably for the rest of their lives, then that's more than enough.

For myself, I would say that about $10 million is more money than I could realistically spend in a lifetime. I could live comfortably on significantly less than that but what the hell, it's a decent starting point. Now there are about 10 people I would consider to be family. Not all of them are close family, but they're not second cousins or anything either. Let's give each of those 10 million too. So we're looking at 110 million there and that's me being far more greedy than I would actually be comfortable with.

That's 0.14% of Warren Buffet's wealth.

This is kind of what I'm driving at. When we're asking what an acceptable level of wealth is, we can certainly quibble over how many millions of dollars are too much. Billionaires are on another scale entirely.

How do you know what's going to be enough tomorrow? Next week? Next year? And, again, who has the right to tell you how much money you can have or make?

 

[Erebus]

How do you know what's going to be enough tomorrow? Next week? Next year? And, again, who has the right to tell you how much money you can have or make?

Well put it this way, if there's ever a situation in which 80 billion is just enough to scrape by, we're facing much bigger problems than wealth inequality. I think if that's how the world looked, I'd be more worried about being raided by Lord Humungus.

As for who can tell me how much money is too much, well that's a tricky one. Really, it should be done by governments as it's kind of their job to protect people from harm and wealth inequality is currently a major source of harm. Since a lot of governments seem to be unwilling or unable to deal with this issue, perhaps it's time to vote in new people with a different set of perspectives? I mean there's always the guillotine option too but I'm not allowed to use mine anymore.

Since this is a discussion forum, I'm trying to keep things a bit light-hearted here. I've done my best to demonstrate what billions of dollars actually look like and could probably continue with examples until I die. Ultimately though, I'm guessing this is an issue we're just never going to agree on

 

[icehorse]

How do you know what's going to be enough tomorrow? Next week? Next year? And, again, who has the right to tell you how much money you can have or make?

This is a problem of ethics and morals. As long as you're not a parasite on society, I don't think there needs to be an upper limit on how much money a person can make. But practically speaking, the more money you make, the more you're taking advantage of society's infrastructure and the more you should be contributing to its upkeep. Bezos and Buffet and Gates and many CEOs are simply not paying for the upkeep of the system that's enriched them.

 

[BSM1]

Well put it this way, if there's ever a situation in which 80 billion is just enough to scrape by, we're facing much bigger problems than wealth inequality. I think if that's how the world looked, I'd be more worried about being raided by Lord Humungus.

As for who can tell me how much money is too much, well that's a tricky one. Really, it should be done by governments as it's kind of their job to protect people from harm and wealth inequality is currently a major source of harm. Since a lot of governments seem to be unwilling or unable to deal with this issue, perhaps it's time to vote in new people with a different set of perspectives? I mean there's always the guillotine option too but I'm not allowed to use mine anymore.

Since this is a discussion forum, I'm trying to keep things a bit light-hearted here. I've done my best to demonstrate what billions of dollars actually look like and could probably continue with examples until I die. Ultimately though, I'm guessing this is an issue we're just never going to agree on

Again, how is that anyone's business how much money you have? Wonder if someone wanted to come over to your house and see how you live just to make sure you're not making too much money?

This is a problem of ethics and morals. As long as you're not a parasite on society, I don't think there needs to be an upper limit on how much money a person can make. But practically speaking, the more money you make, the more you're taking advantage of society's infrastructure and the more you should be contributing to its upkeep. Bezos and Buffet and Gates and many CEOs are simply not paying for the upkeep of the system that's enriched them.

How is Bezos taking advantage of more infrastructure than you? Help me understand. I would say that Jeff is helping the infrastructure by spending more money than most of us will ever make.

 

[icehorse]

How is Bezos taking advantage of more infrastructure than you? Help me understand. I would say that Jeff is helping the infrastructure by spending more money than most of us will ever make.

I'm going to play along and assume that you're arguing in good faith here. What if I rephrased the earlier post to say that "Amazon" is making heavy use of our infrastructure. Would you ask me the same question?

 

[Twilight Hue]

What do you believe causes poverty?
What do you believe the solution is?

I don't at this time have a position to advocate. That may change, but I am curious about what other people think.

I would say greed and possessiveness plays a significant role.

The only change would be through accommodation and an expansion of the bill of rights to include a persons right to food and shelter.

We used to have orphanages, think of it as an adult version for displaced people.

 

[Nakosis]

I would say greed and possessiveness plays a significant role.

The only change would be through accommodation and an expansion of the bill of rights to include a persons right to food and shelter.

We used to have orphanages, think of it as an adult version for displaced people.

I'm not sure I am in agreement with greed. In the case greed equals wealth.

So Warren Buffet has 80 billion. How does this cause me or someone else to be in poverty?

There is another type of greed which I can see directly relates, basically, if I am holding out on necessary services. Like charging $100 for a loaf of bread when folks are going hungry. Profiting off of someone who has no recourse except to pay my exorbitant prices. However just because someone else is wealthy, why does that affect my financial state?

 

[Nakosis]

If he's near water. And teaching about sowing and reaping works too, so long as there's no droughts and locusts.

Or Covid-19? No easy answers when resources disappear or production stops.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What do you believe causes poverty?
What do you believe the solution is?

I don't at this time have a position to advocate. That may change, but I am curious about what other people think.

Being impoverished to the point of homelessness, it seems to me from interactuons with serveral homeless people that severe mental illness often plays a role, which means lack of suitable and appropriate treatment is to blame. They wouldn't be homeless if they could get the care they need (and some are not capable of full independent living).
For being below the poverty line but having a home, physical and mental disabilities play a role, lack of opportunities, lack of education (including being tought to function in and navigate a world that is above poverty), poor pay, poor benefits, amd its often generational.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So Warren Buffet has 80 billion. How does this cause me or someone else to be in poverty?

Its billions that millions can use and need. His 80 billion is part of the reason America has such a massive amd ever widening gap between the rich and poor, with more people becoming poor than rich.

 

[Nakosis]

This is a problem of ethics and morals. As long as you're not a parasite on society, I don't think there needs to be an upper limit on how much money a person can make. But practically speaking, the more money you make, the more you're taking advantage of society's infrastructure and the more you should be contributing to its upkeep. Bezos and Buffet and Gates and many CEOs are simply not paying for the upkeep of the system that's enriched them.

I'm ok with companies paying for what they use but I don't think the government needs to get involved in this. Pay for utilities, pay for roads, pay for transportation. Or even a VAT like the Scandanavian countries has in place. Gas tax, more you use, the more taxes you pay. Paying their fair share for what they use.

Everyone contributes according to their usage.

 

[Nakosis]

Its billions that millions can use and need. His 80 billion is part of the reason America has such a massive amd ever widening gap between the rich and poor, with more people becoming poor than rich.

So how does WB having 80 billion cause a person in Fresno to be poor?

Aren't there other options than taking this money from a private citizen to deal with poverty?

 

[icehorse]

I'm ok with companies paying for what they use but I don't think the government needs to get involved in this. Pay for utilities, pay for roads, pay for transportation. Or even a VAT like the Scandanavian countries has in place. Gas tax, more you use, the more taxes you pay. Paying their fair share for what they use.

Everyone contributes according to their usage.

Okay, we're off to a good start. How about paying for police and fire departments? How about paying for the education of the workers?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So how does WB having 80 billion cause a person in Fresno to be poor?

Aren't there other options than taking this money from a private citizen to deal with poverty?

Theres only a finite amount of money. It's Buffet plus Bezos and Gates and other billionaires who hold the vast majority of the wealth, leaving little for everyone else. If we have 10 people and give 1 person about half the pie, the next 9 people get over 30% of the pie, leaving just barely over 10% of the pie left for the next person.
Billionaires soak up the wealth and leave little for the rest of us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Okay, we're off to a good start. How about paying for police and fire departments? How about paying for the education of the workers?

Yup. That exactly. No one is a self sufficient island that doesn't need to worry themselves about the conditions of others. Without the workers amd systems they abuse, those like Bezos and Musk would have nothing.

 

[sun rise]

Warren's initial income was taxed at the same rate as any other worker. His capital gain tax is lower, but he is being re-taxed on it.

As to your "corp is Peep" assertion, corporations are entities, not people. And suppose you are going to paint someone's house and you have to make 'x' amount of dollars to sustain yourself and your business. The customer is going to have to pay you that amount over and above what it's going to cost you to do the job. This cost would have to include paint (material), labor, cost of maintaining and replacing and/or repairing equipment, insurance costs, taxes, fuel, etc. What you make above these costs is your profit. What you have to make above these costs is your profit margin; the two are not the same. Keep in mind you're also competing with your cousin Vinny for this job, so you have shave that profit margin or eliminate some costs. This is the same for corporations except on a much larger scale.

A former Republican presidential candidate begs to disagree - he said corporations are people.

FYI I know very well how business works having been part of a few small businesses in my time, doing my wife's taxes as she has run a business for many years and coming from a family where my dad had a closely held corporation, I think what would be called a subchapter S corporation today, and ran a business as an individual.

 

[Heyo]

Bezos and Buffet and Gates and many CEOs are simply not paying for the upkeep of the system that's enriched them.

Oh, I bet they are greasing the system quite well.

 

[BSM1]

A former Republican presidential candidate begs to disagree - he said corporations are people.

FYI I know very well how business works having been part of a few small businesses in my time, doing my wife's taxes as she has run a business for many years and coming from a family where my dad had a closely held corporation, I think what would be called a subchapter S corporation today, and ran a business as an individual.

Talk is cheap; facts are facts. So, with your vast business experience, you know exactly what I'm talking about.