The Cause for Poverty

[Thief]

was there not a president?
who planted a 100% tax on ALL income over 25,000dollars

over the recent decades that law has been chipped away is doesn't exist anymore

maybe round TWO is up and needed

 

[syo]

What do you believe causes poverty?

Rich people.

 

[syo]

What do you believe the solution is?

Get rid of capitalism.

 

[Secret Chief]

Rich people.

Not the system?

 

[syo]

Not the system?

They control the system. They think the system is in their favor.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm not sure I am in agreement with greed. In the case greed equals wealth.

So Warren Buffet has 80 billion. How does this cause me or someone else to be in poverty?

There is another type of greed which I can see directly relates, basically, if I am holding out on necessary services. Like charging $100 for a loaf of bread when folks are going hungry. Profiting off of someone who has no recourse except to pay my exorbitant prices. However just because someone else is wealthy, why does that affect my financial state?

It all depends on what the wealthy are doing with their money. It it just socked away and remaining static or is it in active circulation? And just who is actually benefitting on that wealth and where?

Money helps only if its in circulation and active.

People become poor and remain that way when the economy remains static and the money is not moving.

 

[Secret Chief]

They control the system. They think the system is in their favor.

This is probably true.

 

[PureX]

It all depends on what the wealthy are doing with their money. It it just socked away and remaining static or is it in active circulation? And just who is actually benefitting on that wealth and where?

Money helps only if its in circulation and active.

People become poor and remain that way when the economy remains static and the money is not moving.

Also when the people controlling it's movement are doing so to gain yet more money to control. As they inevitably always are. Flow is not the solution to poverty, breaking the control of that flow, is.

 

[BSM1]

Get rid of capitalism.

Did you not support capitalism when you purchased whatever device you're using to post with?

 

[Nakosis]

It all depends on what the wealthy are doing with their money. It it just socked away and remaining static or is it in active circulation? And just who is actually benefitting on that wealth and where?

Money helps only if its in circulation and active.

People become poor and remain that way when the economy remains static and the money is not moving.

Their worth is usually tied up in investment and property. Especially WB, he made his money by investing in the economy.

 

[Tambourine]

Since this is a discussion forum, I'm trying to keep things a bit light-hearted here. I've done my best to demonstrate what billions of dollars actually look like and could probably continue with examples until I die. Ultimately though, I'm guessing this is an issue we're just never going to agree on

In most cases, those billions of dollars are high value stocks. You can't even do anything with them, they're just numbers in computer databases that occasionally get swapped around to further increase their value.

Say what you will about the old robber barons, but at least they built something with all the money they cheated their workers out of; people like Bezos are watching their employees die of COVID infections just so a number in their digital stock portfolio goes up a little.

 

[Tambourine]

I'm ok with companies paying for what they use but I don't think the government needs to get involved in this. Pay for utilities, pay for roads, pay for transportation. Or even a VAT like the Scandanavian countries has in place. Gas tax, more you use, the more taxes you pay. Paying their fair share for what they use.

Everyone contributes according to their usage.

That's a great idea if you need to plunge the greatest amount of people into poverty, in the shortest amount of time, while shuttering essential transportation and infrastructure. Not even in Scandinavia does transportation infrastructure pay for itself.

 

[Nakosis]

Get rid of capitalism.

That would be bad idea. Capitalism has increased the standard of living for everyone. Capitalism has created a need for a workforce. A need to employee people. What we need is more capitalism. Capitalism creates jobs. Creates opportunity for people to earn a living.

Folks want to immigrate to capitalist countries. Why? because of job opportunities, because of the standard of living in capitalist countries.

Since the start of capitalism the average income has risen.

 

[Nakosis]

That's a great idea if you need to plunge the greatest amount of people into poverty, in the shortest amount of time, while shuttering essential transportation and infrastructure. Not even in Scandinavia does transportation infrastructure pay for itself.

IOW, we don't actually want everyone to pay their fair share.

 

[sun rise]

Talk is cheap; facts are facts. So, with your vast business experience, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Ignoring the sarcasm...

I know that taxing corporate retained earnings less than individual income is an advantage given to corporations.

If a corporation pays no taxes on retained earnings but I need to pay 30%? Both make a $1m. The corporation retains the $1m. I pay 30% leaving me with $700k. The corp thus has more capital than I do and can outbid me on jobs. That's not fair. Corporations should pay taxes on income just like individuals.

If you want to propose that double taxation be eliminated and that individuals who receive dividends pay the same taxes as people who actually work for a living and earn their paycheck, that could be a winner if it was really clean and simple, top to bottom. The current system?:

Q. Is corporate income double-taxed?
A. C-corporations pay entity-level tax on their income, and their shareholders pay tax again when the income is distributed. But in practice, not all corporate income is taxed at the entity level, and many corporate shareholders are exempt from income tax.

Is corporate income double-taxed?

 

[sun rise]

Did you not support capitalism when you purchased whatever device you're using to post with?

We're using 'capitalism' pretty loosely. There's regular corporations, public benefit corporations, non-profits and free enterprise which does not require a corporation as we know it to work.

I'm in favor of free enterprise but not gigantic corporations which raise artificial barriers to entry and distort government especially tax policy in their benefit. I'm not in favor of handouts to the current crop of "buggy whip" companies (coal companies and others).

So if you ask me to choose between the current corporate system and government ownership, my answer is 'none of the above'.

 

[BSM1]

Ignoring the sarcasm...

I know that taxing corporate retained earnings less than individual income is an advantage given to corporations.

If a corporation pays no taxes on retained earnings but I need to pay 30%? Both make a $1m. The corporation retains the $1m. I pay 30% leaving me with $700k. The corp thus has more capital than I do and can outbid me on jobs. That's not fair. Corporations should pay taxes on income just like individuals.

If you want to propose that double taxation be eliminated and that individuals who receive dividends pay the same taxes as people who actually work for a living and earn their paycheck, that could be a winner if it was really clean and simple, top to bottom. The current system?:

Q. Is corporate income double-taxed?
A. C-corporations pay entity-level tax on their income, and their shareholders pay tax again when the income is distributed. But in practice, not all corporate income is taxed at the entity level, and many corporate shareholders are exempt from income tax.

Is corporate income double-taxed?

Point taken, but in your business if you are taxed 30% (or any per cent as far as that goes) don't you pass it on to your customers?

 

[Twilight Hue]

In most cases, those billions of dollars are high value stocks. You can't even do anything with them, they're just numbers in computer databases that occasionally get swapped around to further increase their value.

Say what you will about the old robber barons, but at least they built something with all the money they cheated their workers out of; people like Bezos are watching their employees die of COVID infections just so a number in their digital stock portfolio goes up a little.

Did you hear about Wall Street? The virus didn't effect them at all. In fact wall street is better than ever.

How Can Wall Street Be So Healthy When Main Street Isn't?

The wealthy are not the least bit concerned.

 

[Heyo]

Point taken, but in your business if you are taxed 30% (or any per cent as far as that goes) don't you pass it on to your customers?

If you think that corporation can set their prices based on costs plus taxes, you should revisit your economics 101.

 

[sun rise]

Point taken, but in your business if you are taxed 30% (or any per cent as far as that goes) don't you pass it on to your customers?

Sure, if I can. And if I work for a living, I'm focused on my take-home pay which is another way of saying that I want a larger salary if I'm taxed more if I can get it.

There are two questions. The first is fairness. Does the tax system treat all parties the same. The second is what the tax system should be. I was focusing on the first point and you on the second.

In a rational universe, we could have a rational discussion of these two points compared to the current state of affairs. And that discussion would not just be cost-based but also benefit-based. What government should be doing and how should it be paid for are serious questions deserving serious discussion which of course does not exist.