The Cause without a Cause

[The Sum of Awe]

If God is the uncaused cause, if literally nothing-at-all is responsible for God's existence, what then stops another God from arising from nothing-at-all?

 

[Audie]

The one already there it's the newcomer

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If God is the uncaused cause, if literally nothing-at-all is responsible for God's existence, what then stops another God from arising from nothing-at-all?

You've hit on one of the problems with monotheism: to tackle it with intellectual honesty, not only would a person need to establish that their god exists, but also that all other gods don't exist.

I'm not sure this is possible.

 

[AlexanderG]

All of these types of arguments are logically flawed. The argument identifies a universal problem, claims that god solves the problem and then asserts that this problem also doesn't apply to god, by definition, which makes the original problem not universal. It's incoherent. Another term for this is Special Pleading, which is a known flaw in reasoning.

"Consciousness can't just arise naturally. It must be created by a greater consciousness, and that greater consciousness arose naturally."

"Everything needs a cause. Because everything needs a cause, god must be that cause and also god needs no cause."

"God allows us to do evil because otherwise we could only do good, and we would have no free will. God can only do good and also has free will."

 

[ameyAtmA]

If God is the uncaused cause, if literally nothing-at-all is responsible for God's existence, what then stops another God from arising from nothing-at-all?

The fact that He is all there is. There is no other.
Any appearance is within the One
I alone am

aham sarvasya prabhavo |
mattah sarvam pravartate |
iti matvA bhajante mAm |
budhA bhAva samanvitAh: ||
- Bhagvad Geeta 10.8

I am the origin of all that comes forth/manifests/exists.
Everything emerges from me.
Those who think of Me thus, know Me well and have great devotion towards Me.

 

[Brian2]

If God is the uncaused cause, if literally nothing-at-all is responsible for God's existence, what then stops another God from arising from nothing-at-all?

God did not arise from anything or from nothing. God has always been.
This God said He is the only one, the first and the last.
Psalm 90:2Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

God knows the future and so knows there will be no other God arising.

If another God did arise then from nothing then there would be the same questions about how that happened as occur with the arising of the physical universe.

 

[Brian2]

All of these types of arguments are logically flawed. The argument identifies a universal problem, claims that god solves the problem and then asserts that this problem also doesn't apply to god, by definition, which makes the original problem not universal. It's incoherent. Another term for this is Special Pleading, which is a known flaw in reasoning.

"Consciousness can't just arise naturally. It must be created by a greater consciousness, and that greater consciousness arose naturally."

"Everything needs a cause. Because everything needs a cause, god must be that cause and also god needs no cause."

"God allows us to do evil because otherwise we could only do good, and we would have no free will. God can only do good and also has free will."

Consciousness of God did not arise naturally, God has always been and has always been conscious and so no cause was needed.
We humans do evil and many say that God should step in and stop that and force us to do only good and that would take away our will and so stop us from being human. God is good naturally and does not been to be forced to do good.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

All of these types of arguments are logically flawed. The argument identifies a universal problem, claims that god solves the problem and then asserts that this problem also doesn't apply to god, by definition, which makes the original problem not universal. It's incoherent. Another term for this is Special Pleading, which is a known flaw in reasoning.

"Consciousness can't just arise naturally. It must be created by a greater consciousness, and that greater consciousness arose naturally."

"Everything needs a cause. Because everything needs a cause, god must be that cause and also god needs no cause."

"God allows us to do evil because otherwise we could only do good, and we would have no free will. God can only do good and also has free will."

I think it is easier to explain it as "something Willed existence to exist (including its own existence)" because Will seems to be the ultimate originator. Do you know what I mean?

Human will is determined by exterior events, just like all things in the universe, but in the end the Great Everything should boil down to something that "just happened without a reason", and the only notable thing for that is "The reason itself is the reason The Great Everything exists"

 

[F1fan]

God did not arise from anything or from nothing. God has always been.
This God said He is the only one, the first and the last.
Psalm 90:2Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

God knows the future and so knows there will be no other God arising.

If another God did arise then from nothing then there would be the same questions about how that happened as occur with the arising of the physical universe.

The God you're referring to is a character in a book. It's not known to exist outside of human imagination.

It's more likely that energy has always existed in one form or another. No Gods needed.

 

[F1fan]

I think it is easier to explain it as "something Willed existence to exist (including its own existence)" because Will seems to be the ultimate originator. Do you know what I mean?

I don't. Will is a function of working, living brains. How can will exist as a function of a brain that doesn't exist yet?

Human will is determined by exterior events, just like all things in the universe, but in the end the Great Everything should boil down to something that "just happened without a reason", and the only notable thing for that is "The reason itself is the reason The Great Everything exists"

This isn't coherent. Can you accept the posibility that things exist for no reason at all?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I don't. Will is a function of working, living brains. How can will exist as a function of a brain that doesn't exist yet?


This isn't coherent. Can you accept the posibility that things exist for no reason at all?

I can't. If there was no reason at all then things wouldn't exist. That's basically what I'm trying to say.

 

[F1fan]

I can't. If there was no reason at all then things wouldn't exist. That's basically what I'm trying to say.

Why wouldn't things exist without a reason? Is there a reason for flesh eating bacteria that kills people? Is there a reason for genes that cause birth defects?

There are explanations via facts, which is cause and effect. There is no intentional reason that makes any sense.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Why wouldn't things exist without a reason? Is there a reason for flesh eating bacteria that kills people? Is there a reason for genes that cause birth defects?

There are explanations via facts, which is cause and effect. There is no intentional reason that makes any sense.

There is no intentional reason that makes any sense to us. But it seems likely to me that cause and effect would eventually lead back to an intention at its very origin. I suppose it's because intention is more spontaneous than most other causes, and also the universe has an "order" to it that makes me conclude that there is an intentional reason for this "order".

 

[F1fan]

There is no intentional reason that makes any sense to us.

Exactly.

But it seems likely to me that cause and effect would eventually lead back to an intention at its very origin.

Why? How is it likely at all?

I suppose it's because intention is more spontaneous than most other causes, and also the universe has an "order" to it that makes me conclude that there is an intentional reason for this "order".

Intention requires a living brain. Order is a result of matter behaving according to the natural laws. Where's this brain of the universe that has intention and a reason?

And be sure to get back to me about that flesh eating bacteria and genetic defects. Things have reasons, right?

 

[Aupmanyav]

If God is the uncaused cause, if literally nothing-at-all is responsible for God's existence, what then stops another God from arising from nothing-at-all?

IMHO, God is a faulty concept, a relic from stone age.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Exactly.


Why? How is it likely at all?


Intention requires a living brain. Order is a result of matter behaving according to the natural laws. Where's this brain of the universe that has intention and a reason?

How about instead of the word 'intention' I use the word 'meaning'? I don't think there necessarily was a consciousness behind it all, at least not in a human way of consciousness, but certainly a meaning. Certainly there is a meaning to this order, why things behave the way that they do? There is a 'why' behind it all and at some point there must be more to it than 'it is following the physical/mathematical law of X' because even that would need a 'why'. The Why at the beginning of Everything should be non-substantial and not mathematically or physically determined.

And be sure to get back to me about that flesh eating bacteria and genetic defects. Things have reasons, right?

Just because we don't understand doesn't mean they're meaningless.

 

[Brian2]

The God you're referring to is a character in a book. It's not known to exist outside of human imagination.

God has prophesied accurately to humans for a long time now.

It's more likely that energy has always existed in one form or another. No Gods needed.

Did someone tell you that or did you make it up?

 

[Trailblazer]

The fact that He is all there is. There is no other.
Any appearance is within the One
I alone am

Thanks, I did not know that was a Hindu belief. That is also a Baha'i belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

If another God did arise then from nothing then there would be the same questions about how that happened

If another God did arise, how would anyone know? Nobody can even prove the God that exists exists.

 

[F1fan]

God has prophesied accurately to humans for a long time now.

This is not a factual statement.

If you wish to back up your claim with facts and a coherent explanation, go for it.

Did someone tell you that or did you make it up?

It is a logical conclusion based on observations and facts.

Feel free to demonstrate any gods exist outside of human imagination.