The Chain of Infallibility

[BilliardsBall]

That is the response that I predicted, as it is often used when someone can't actually respond. If God gave us free will, then God does not have a hand in what we write or how we preserve His word. Thus biblical preservation is subject to human error. If you think that God controls every thing, then every murder, rape, robbery, starving child and every cancer patient is a result of God's will.

Now, go back and answer my questions...if you can.

1. I did answer your questions.

2. You ignored the rest of my post.

3. Where did you learn that God's sovereignty disallows man's free will?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Red herring. I'll take your answer as saying that you do not know how "knocking" verifies Christ & his alleged rising from the dead.

The truths of Buddhism are verifiable in the here (space) and now (time). The person of Jesus (or Buddha, or Krishna, or any other historical figure) is NOT verifiable in the here and now.

In Buddhism, the Teachings (Dhamma) are far more important than the Person (Buddha).

How can you take my answer as a red herring since you said 1) you only accept personal knowledge as valid 2) you said you have no personal knowledge of Jesus Christ? I'd say 1) ad 2) confirm I'm correct, you haven't knocked.

Your next step, if you have an interest in Jesus Christ, is to pray to Jesus Christ. One reason this offer verifiable evidence for you to sift--Jesus Christ rose from the dead and is therefore able, today, to respond to prayer.

Thanks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And none of those listening/recording realized the absurdity of Jesus asking about been foresaken when the whole plan was clear from the beginning?

Do logical absurdities provide any measurable benefit?


Ciao

- viole

Where did you learn the whole plan was clear, from the beginning, to the apostles? Just last night, three of us were studying John. Clearly the opposite was the case and they understood more and more of God's plans after Jesus rose from the dead and The Spirit began to indwell believers.

This aligns with my experience--that born again people are "in on the plan" far more closely than nonbelievers. Trust Jesus, pray to Jesus, much will made clear that you now find confusing or illogical. Your confusion and illlogic stem, in part--if you don't mind my saying so--from demonic-induced confusion. I'm not saying you're some demon-possessed person, I don't want you to be offended, but rather, that Satan holds captive those unwilling to rely on God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The chain of infallibility!

There is no such a chain. According to Ecclesiastes 7:20, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." That includes Jesus who was a man upon earth for 33 years of his short life. It also goes thus: There has never been a man upon earth who has succeeded in every thing and never failed.

 

[buddhist]

How can you take my answer as a red herring since you said 1) you only accept personal knowledge as valid 2) you said you have no personal knowledge of Jesus Christ? I'd say 1) ad 2) confirm I'm correct, you haven't knocked.

I was asking how you know that "knocking" verifies Christ & his resurrection. I am not saying that only personal knowledge is valid, but that only personal knowledge can confirm what others claim. I am awaiting details about your claim that "knocking" verifies Christ & his resurrection.

Your next step, if you have an interest in Jesus Christ, is to pray to Jesus Christ. One reason this offer verifiable evidence for you to sift--Jesus Christ rose from the dead and is therefore able, today, to respond to prayer. Thanks.

Answers to prayer does not necessarily verify the Christian worldview or the Christian version of Jesus. In the perspective of Buddhism, individuals can be reborn as devas, gods, and Brahmas in the various heavens and they can answer prayers.

 

[buddhist]

The chain of infallibility!

There is no such a chain. According to Ecclesiastes 7:20, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." That includes Jesus who was a man upon earth for 33 years of his short life. It also goes thus: There has never been a man upon earth who has succeeded in every thing and never failed.

If there is no chain of infallibility, why should I believe in the book of Ecclesiastes? In other words, how do you know that your quote from Ecclesiastes is correct, and from "god"?

 

[Neo Deist]

I have a few of questions:

1. Which version of the Bible do you refer to? I can guarantee that some versions are NOT infallible, like the NWT.

2. The original works, called the Autographs, have long been lost or destroyed. Many went up in flames when Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed much of Jerusalem. How do you know for a FACT that the version you read is infallible, when you don't have the originals to compare to? All we have are copies of copies, and those are subject to human error.

3. We are thousands of years removed from the culture of the Bible. Their idioms are lost on us. How do you reconcile that ancient age of mysticism and supernatural superstition with our advanced knowledge of science and medicine? You can't look at the Bible through a modern lense.



Perhaps the focus should be on God, not the Bible. Use that book as a guide, but to think that it is free from error is just silly.

**Which God do you think is unable to preserve copies of a written document exactly, precisely, wholly?

1. I did answer your questions.

2. You ignored the rest of my post.

3. Where did you learn that God's sovereignty disallows man's free will?

Uh, no you didn't.

 

[Neo Deist]

Where did you learn the whole plan was clear, from the beginning, to the apostles? Just last night, three of us were studying John. Clearly the opposite was the case and they understood more and more of God's plans after Jesus rose from the dead and The Spirit began to indwell believers.

Yet no one recognized the risen Jesus because he looked like a different person. Hmmm...

This aligns with my experience--that born again people are "in on the plan" far more closely than nonbelievers. Trust Jesus, pray to Jesus...

No, pray to God and live a moral life. God gave us free will and we take the consequences of our actions; good or bad.

Your confusion and illlogic stem, in part--if you don't mind my saying so--from demonic-induced confusion. I'm not saying you're some demon-possessed person, I don't want you to be offended, but rather, that Satan holds captive those unwilling to rely on God.

Satan and demons?

Satan is not the devil, and certainly is not the arch enemy of God. If God, as the all powerful creator of the universe, truly had a problem with Satan, the God could simply snap those divine fingers and uncreate him and be done with it. Leave it up to a bunch of silly humans to come up with the devil concept. But hey, when you don't want to take responsibility for your actions, I guess a supernatural boogeyman fall guy is warranted.

 

[Neo Deist]

Wait, I have your next answer!

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist."

Heard it all before.

The greatest trick the Church ever pulled was convincing people that Satan was the devil, and that Hell existed as a place of eternal torment. Got to have those control tactics in place if you want to hang on to your power and influence. Got to keep the coffers full of $$$.

 

[viole]

Where did you learn the whole plan was clear, from the beginning, to the apostles? Just last night, three of us were studying John. Clearly the opposite was the case and they understood more and more of God's plans after Jesus rose from the dead and The Spirit began to indwell believers.

Well, didn't He say to the apostles exactly what was going to happen? Betrayal, death and return after the weekend? Maybe not in John, but I am sure you can find it.

The funny thing is that the apostles did not believe Him. Obviously, considering that they were initially skeptical of His actual resurrection. Despite the actual and exact unfolding of anticipated events plus some marvellous and miracolous events at the time of His "death". I mean, if I had been an apostle and witnessed all that, I would have probably called the CNN, or the roman empire equivalent, to record His resurrection live.

It was probably not so easy to find reliable and logically thinking apostles at that time. Finding qualified personnel has always been a problem, I guess. Even if you are the son of God.

This aligns with my experience--that born again people are "in on the plan" far more closely than nonbelievers. Trust Jesus, pray to Jesus, much will made clear that you now find confusing or illogical. Your confusion and illlogic stem, in part--if you don't mind my saying so--from demonic-induced confusion. I'm not saying you're some demon-possessed person, I don't want you to be offended, but rather, that Satan holds captive those unwilling to rely on God.

Well, I could equally say that your obsession with Jesus is driven by Satan. Who can say? For sure Jesus Father seems to have developed all of a sudden a pretty different attitude than His alter ego in the OT, which looks suspicious.

On the other hand, it is probably unlikely that Satan, the master deceiver, would have created something like that. It has logical holes all over the place.

By the way, I was a born again, too. Am I now dead, waiting to be dead again?

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

The chain of infallibility!

There is no such a chain. According to Ecclesiastes 7:20, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." That includes Jesus who was a man upon earth for 33 years of his short life. It also goes thus: There has never been a man upon earth who has succeeded in every thing and never failed.

Eccl 7:20 "There has never [yet] been [been is past tense] a man..."

Kindly give evidence here that Messiah Y'shua committed a sin(s). Thank you.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I was asking how you know that "knocking" verifies Christ & his resurrection. I am not saying that only personal knowledge is valid, but that only personal knowledge can confirm what others claim. I am awaiting details about your claim that "knocking" verifies Christ & his resurrection.

Answers to prayer does not necessarily verify the Christian worldview or the Christian version of Jesus. In the perspective of Buddhism, individuals can be reborn as devas, gods, and Brahmas in the various heavens and they can answer prayers.

I agree with some of what you said. I asked God to do more than answer prayer. I asked God (prayer) for evidence I could accept so I could make an informed decision about whether to trust Jesus.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yet no one recognized the risen Jesus because he looked like a different person. Hmmm...



No, pray to God and live a moral life. God gave us free will and we take the consequences of our actions; good or bad.



Satan and demons?

Satan is not the devil, and certainly is not the arch enemy of God. If God, as the all powerful creator of the universe, truly had a problem with Satan, the God could simply snap those divine fingers and uncreate him and be done with it. Leave it up to a bunch of silly humans to come up with the devil concept. But hey, when you don't want to take responsibility for your actions, I guess a supernatural boogeyman fall guy is warranted.

1. There were some who recognized the risen Jesus in the NT.

2. There were some who were understandably astonished when the beaten, bloodied, crucified Savior appeared like an angel in dazzling white.

3. Where in the Bible does it say God judges "our moral life"? It says in the OT to live or die by the Law and that all are sinful, short of the Law. It says in both testaments to trust God for salvation.

4. Where in your theology studies did you learn that God's immutable will involves His counter-decision to "snap Satan out of existence"? Where did you learn that God who gave Satan and mankind immortality is "into" snapping His immutable, perfect creations out of existence?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Wait, I have your next answer!

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist."

Heard it all before.

The greatest trick the Church ever pulled was convincing people that Satan was the devil, and that Hell existed as a place of eternal torment. Got to have those control tactics in place if you want to hang on to your power and influence. Got to keep the coffers full of $$$.

I see. You don't want to discuss or debate facts as much as you want to be rhetorical, philosophical. But I'll answer:

Since so many major and minor religions have a Manichean opposite to God, a devil, a dark side, where in all your theology study did you "learn" Satan was invented by the church, thousands of years after mystery religions and native beliefs all had devils in them?

 

[metis]

Satan is mentioned 18 times in the Tanakh,and those references can be found here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv...1=Satan&restrict=Old+Testament&size=First+100

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, didn't He say to the apostles exactly what was going to happen? Betrayal, death and return after the weekend? Maybe not in John, but I am sure you can find it.

The funny thing is that the apostles did not believe Him. Obviously, considering that they were initially skeptical of His actual resurrection. Despite the actual and exact unfolding of anticipated events plus some marvellous and miracolous events at the time of His "death". I mean, if I had been an apostle and witnessed all that, I would have probably called the CNN, or the roman empire equivalent, to record His resurrection live.

It was probably not so easy to find reliable and logically thinking apostles at that time. Finding qualified personnel has always been a problem, I guess. Even if you are the son of God.



Well, I could equally say that your obsession with Jesus is driven by Satan. Who can say? For sure Jesus Father seems to have developed all of a sudden a pretty different attitude than His alter ego in the OT, which looks suspicious.

On the other hand, it is probably unlikely that Satan, the master deceiver, would have created something like that. It has logical holes all over the place.

By the way, I was a born again, too. Am I now dead, waiting to be dead again?

Ciao

- viole

1. The apostles spent each of their lifetimes "not ceasing to preach and teach Jesus Christ". You are making the case here for your argument and for the Bible.

2. The two testaments are actually, instead of what you wrote, remarkably consistent in their descriptions of God's character, love and justice. It is a canard, at best accepted in some (foolish) liberal universities, that the testament Gods are different. It is a canard as old as the higher criticism of two centuries ago.

3. If you are born again, why wouldn't you love His people and obey His commands (John 14)?

 

[buddhist]

I agree with some of what you said. I asked God to do more than answer prayer. I asked God (prayer) for evidence I could accept so I could make an informed decision about whether to trust Jesus.

I've also had prayers answered from other deities, so answered prayers is not proof that the deity in question is the one and only "God Almighty".

 

[BilliardsBall]

I've also had prayers answered from other deities, so answered prayers is not proof that the deity in question is the one and only "God Almighty".

I'm not saying answered prayer is proof of anything. I'm saying I prayed to God for evidence concerning the Christ.

 

[Neo Deist]

1. There were some who recognized the risen Jesus in the NT.

2. There were some who were understandably astonished when the beaten, bloodied, crucified Savior appeared like an angel in dazzling white.

3. Where in the Bible does it say God judges "our moral life"? It says in the OT to live or die by the Law and that all are sinful, short of the Law. It says in both testaments to trust God for salvation.

4. Where in your theology studies did you learn that God's immutable will involves His counter-decision to "snap Satan out of existence"? Where did you learn that God who gave Satan and mankind immortality is "into" snapping His immutable, perfect creations out of existence?

I am still waiting on answers to my original questions before I answer yours...

 

[Ben Avraham]

Eccl 7:20 "There has never [yet] been [been is past tense] a man..."

Kindly give evidence here that Messiah Y'shua committed a sin(s). Thank you.

I am not going to argue with you on that, because you are reading from a Christian version of the Bible. I am reading from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. The author of ecclesiastes was speaking in a general manner as a proverb based on a fact of life. But you don't have to get stuck to him. Jesus gave evidence of himself as a sinner when he broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text of Mat. 23:13-33.

The Golden Rule states that we must not do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. That's what Jesus did to the Pharisees when he cursed them with being hypocrites and brood of vipers. Do you think Jesus would have liked to be addressed as a hypocrite and brood of vipers? I don't think so. So, you have the evidence from Jesus himself that he broke the Golden Rule which covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Serious transgressions right there, mind you!

And that was not the first and last time. Jesus also caused financial and physical damages to the money changers when he armed himself with a whip and vandalized their work which enjoyed the authorization of the High Priest. And their work was needed to make it easier for the Jews coming from abroad to change their foreign money by the kosher Temple shekel to pay for a lamb to remain kosher till the time to be sacrificed.