The Challenge in the Qur'an

[McBell]

Not really. Fatihah's condition is that the religion has to conquer nations, and Scientology hasn't even tried that, yet. Not to mention Scientology doesn't exactly have a major following.

Of course, it's a weak condition at best, because most religions don't even seek to conquer nations.

This is exactly the point of the second part of my post.

Unless Fatihah can show where ALLAH, not Fatihah, not any of his favourite Muslims, not any of the Hadiths, but ALLAH himself says that that is a condition, it is not a condition of the Allah issued challenge.

 

[Fatihah]

And where was this stated in the Qur'an?

Though I am pleased that you reworded this argument from before, because several books have been used to conquer nations, such as Mein Kamf and The Little Red Book.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

 

[Fatihah]

This is from a group of Muftis in a response to a question regarding disjointed letters in the Qu'ran from Islamonline:

Ibn `Abbas was reported to have said that these letters stand as a proof of the authenticity of the words that occur after them. ​

In Az-Zamakhshari’s Kashshaaf, we read: “These letters indirectly denote that though being part of their own language, the Quraysh tribe failed to produce the like of the Qur’an.” ​

Some scholars adopt the view that these letters are names of the surahs (chapters of the Qur’an) in which they are mentioned. ​

In another place, we find that these letters are an aspect of the challenge directed to the disbelievers (to produce the like of the Qur’an). Although the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was illiterate, he brought something very unique in every aspect. ​

The eminent Muslim scholar, Dr. `Abdul-Fattah `Ashoor, Professor of the Exegesis of the Qur'an at Al-Azhar Univ., states:​

““Alif Lam Mim” [and the like] are separate or disjointed letters that many Qur'anic surahs start with.​

Scholars hold different opinions regarding their meaning. The most correct opinion is that Allah refers to the fact that the Qur’an consists of the like of these letters. The People of Quraysh were challenged to produce the like of the Qur’an, which is of Arabic letters, and they failed to produce its like. They failed to produce 10 surahs, a single surah, or even a verse. ​

This sheds light on the fact that the Qur'an is revealed by Allah. No one can produce it, even the Prophet himself who was an eloquent man.​

Allah Almighty says: "Say: Verily, though mankind and the Jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another." (Al-Isra': 88)​

This is where the challenge is being talked of in past tense and that this challenge was meant for the Quaraish 1400 years ago,this is the only logical conclusion IMO​

Response: However, nothing in which you've just quoted nor does the qur'an say that the challenge was only meant for the Quaraish 1400 years ago, thus to believe it is so is illogical.

 

[Riverwolf]

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

Anyone surprised?

Tell me: did Mao Ze Dong turn China into a Communist nation, or did he not?

Did Hitler conquer most of Europe, or did he not?

 

[McBell]

Anyone surprised?

Not in the least.
Though, I would be surprised if he was to ever actually stand up and defend his position instead of resorting to this type of childishness.

 

[Fatihah]

Dianetics by L Ron Hubbard led to Scientology.

There, your challenge has been met.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof.

 

[Riverwolf]

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof.

Was L. Ron Hubbard a real person, and do people actually follow a religion called Scientology?

Besides, you haven't proven that the challenge is about conquering a nation. That's a statement without any proof. It's just your speculation. It's certainly plausible, but not certain.

 

[McBell]

Was L. Ron Hubbard a real person, and do people actually follow a religion called Scientology?

Besides, you haven't proven that the challenge is about conquering a nation. That's a statement without any proof. It's just your speculation. It's certainly plausible, but not certain.

It is ok.
Everyone reading this thread can clearly see that the challenge has been met.

His sad attempt at adding conditions to his gods challenge is laughable, at best.

 

[Fatihah]

Anyone surprised?

Tell me: did Mao Ze Dong turn China into a Communist nation, or did he not?

Did Hitler conquer most of Europe, or did he not?

Response: Yes. But did they create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation? No. Thus the challenge still stands.

 

[Fatihah]

Not in the least.
Though, I would be surprised if he was to ever actually stand up and defend his position instead of resorting to this type of childishness.

Response: Likewise.

 

[McBell]

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof.

Your above quoted reply proves me right.

 

[McBell]

Response: Likewise.

Thank you.
This is even more proof that the challenge has been met.

 

[Riverwolf]

Response: Yes. But did they create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation? No. Thus the challenge still stands.

Christianity ALSO conquered all of Europe, and much of the world, as well.

Christianity also (tragically) conquered most of the Americas.

There. Christianity conquered most of the West.

Now... would the conditions be met if religion were used to save a nation from tyranny? Would that count as "conquering" a nation?

 

[McBell]

Response: Yes. But did they create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation? No. Thus the challenge still stands.

Please present the verse from the Koran that shows that this "conquer a nation" is part of the challenge as issued by Allah?

Until you can provide said verse, the condition you claim has not been met, is completely irrelevant.

 

[Riverwolf]

Thank you.
This is even more proof that the challenge has been met.

I'd say this entire debate is not any good.

So far, Fatihah has issued the most plausible possibility for the conditions for the challenge, but it's nothing but speculation, as it has not been demonstrated that the Qur'an lays out that condition.

 

[Fatihah]

Was L. Ron Hubbard a real person, and do people actually follow a religion called Scientology?

Besides, you haven't proven that the challenge is about conquering a nation. That's a statement without any proof. It's just your speculation. It's certainly plausible, but not certain.

Response: The question is whether the challenge proves that the qur'an is from Allah. You've provided no proof that it doesn't. You're question to prove that the challenge is about conquering nations is irrelevant. For in no such way does your question answer whether the qur'an is from Allah.

 

[McBell]

I'd say this entire debate is not any good.

So far, Fatihah has issued the most plausible possibility for the conditions for the challenge, but it's nothing but speculation, as it has not been demonstrated that the Qur'an lays out that condition.

I have asked, numerous times, for the verse that shows this "conquering" condition was actually part of Allah's challenge, but have yet to get an answer.

 

[McBell]

Response: The question is whether the challenge proves that the qur'an is from Allah. You've provided no proof that it doesn't. You're question to prove that the challenge is about conquering nations is irrelevant. For in no such way does your question answer whether the qur'an is from Allah.

Your denial and your avoidance proves that the challenge has been met.

 

[Fatihah]

It is ok.
Everyone reading this thread can clearly see that the challenge has been met.

His sad attempt at adding conditions to his gods challenge is laughable, at best.

Response: Still trolling? Anyone on the forum can see that the challenge hasn't been met and you're trolling tactics serves proof that even you can't disagree with me.

 

[Riverwolf]

I just thought of something.

The conditions that Fatihah are presenting for the challenge could be interpreted by peaceful religions, that have NO INTENTION OR DESIRE to conquer nations, as a dare of sorts: "Come on. Think you can best me? Think you can MATCH me? I dare you. I DOUBLE-DOG DARE you!" This kind of thing could be seen as an appeal to humanities's animalistic nature, which is certainly violent.

Now, in my studies, I have found that most religions teach that we must let go of our animalistic nature, so it is wise to ignore such challenges.

If that's the case, then conquering a nation can't be the condition for the challenge.

Now, Fatihah, before you say "there's the statement, where's the proof," know this: I said COULD BE, not IS. It COULD BE interpreted like this.