The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[Ben Masada]

The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

TNK (Tanakh). Not quite TNT but it will explode all the same as to bring down one of the pillars of Christianity. T stands for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim. Torah is the Law, Neviim are the prophetic books, and Ketuvim, are the historical or literary books.

According to Judaism, there were 55 Prophets in the History of Israel, and Daniel was not one of them. Therefore, when the Jewish Canon was organized, the book of Daniel was not taken in consideration as a prophetic book. So, the book of Daniel was accounted among the historical books of the Tanakh.

Why? How could such a book as the book of Daniel not be considered among the prophetic books of the Tanakh but a literary book of History?

First and foremost, the book of Daniel was not written by Daniel. Second, the book takes its name, not from the author, who is actually unknown, but from its hero, a young Jew taken earlier to Babylon, where he lived at least until 538 BCE.

The Book of Daniel was written during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV (167-164 BCE) with the purpose to strengthen and comfort the Jewish People in their ordeal. Probably, the same author of the Book of Daniel wrote also the two volumes of the book of the Maccabees.

Then, the book was patronized by John Hyrcanus, a Jewish King from the Hasmonian Dynasty, who died in 104 BCE. He was famous for promoting Art and Literature.

Now, for the Christian pillar that has collapsed with this revelation about Daniel. The TNT resides in the famous so-called "prophetic" frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which was written after the facts, as it classifies the book of Daniel as a historical and not prophetic book.

Therefore, here ends the bickering and babel of confusion to try to fit Jesus into a prophecy which was never a prophecy in the first place. However, as a historical book, the author, who, nobody knows was, did gain his place for the accuracy of events, as secular History confirms.

Ben

 

[Kathryn]

Many Christians believe that much of the Old and New Testament carry layered meanings that transcend literal history.

 

[emiliano]

The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

TNK (Tanakh). Not quite TNT but it will explode all the same as to bring down one of the pillars of Christianity. T stands for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim. Torah is the Law, Neviim are the prophetic books, and Ketuvim, are the historical or literary books.

According to Judaism, there were 55 Prophets in the History of Israel, and Daniel was not one of them. Therefore, when the Jewish Canon was organized, the book of Daniel was not taken in consideration as a prophetic book. So, the book of Daniel was accounted among the historical books of the Tanakh.

Why? How could such a book as the book of Daniel not be considered among the prophetic books of the Tanakh but a literary book of History?

First and foremost, the book of Daniel was not written by Daniel. Second, the book takes its name, not from the author, who is actually unknown, but from its hero, a young Jew taken earlier to Babylon, where he lived at least until 538 BCE.

The Book of Daniel was written during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV (167-164 BCE) with the purpose to strengthen and comfort the Jewish People in their ordeal. Probably, the same author of the Book of Daniel wrote also the two volumes of the book of the Maccabees.

Then, the book was patronized by John Hyrcanus, a Jewish King from the Hasmonian Dynasty, who died in 104 BCE. He was famous for promoting Art and Literature.

Now, for the Christian pillar that has collapsed with this revelation about Daniel. The TNT resides in the famous so-called "prophetic" frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which was written after the facts, as it classifies the book of Daniel as a historical and not prophetic book.

Therefore, here ends the bickering and babel of confusion to try to fit Jesus into a prophecy which was never a prophecy in the first place. However, as a historical book, the author, who, nobody knows was, did gain his place for the accuracy of events, as secular History confirms.

Ben

For most Christians that I’ve know the strongest pillar for their faith I in Torah and the announcement of the coming one like Moses.

Deu 18:15
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
Deu 18:18
I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. ​

And this is continued with the Prophet Isaiah

Isa 42:1
"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One [in whom] My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:6
"I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles,​

 

[angellous_evangellous]

:spam:

 

[Ben Masada]

Many Christians believe that much of the Old and New Testament carry layered meanings that transcend literal history.

For example...

 

[Ben Masada]

For most Christians that I’ve know the strongest pillar for their faith I in Torah and the announcement of the coming one like Moses. Deu 18:15"The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

And before you assume that he was Jesus, let me tell you that he was Joshua. And it was not a prophecy. It was in preparation to enhance the credibility of Joshua, So the People would welcome him on behalf of Moses.

Deu 18:18

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.

As we have seen above, he was Joshua. But even if he had been Jesus, Christians would be in grave trouble. Jesus came to confirm Judaism to the letter and they follow the antagnistic religion of Paul, which is Christianity.

And this is continued with the Prophet Isaiah

Isa 42:1

"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One [in whom] My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

This is the same Servant spoken of in Isaiah 41:8,9. Israel by name.

Isa 42:6

​

"I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles,​

​

That's Israel, the Jewish People all right, confirmed by Jesus himself when in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, he said, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)
​

 

[Zardoz]

...That's Israel, the Jewish People all right, confirmed by Jesus himself when in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, he said, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)

:yes:

 

[emiliano]

quote=Ben Masada


And before you assume that he was Jesus, let me tell you that he was Joshua. And it was not a prophecy. It was in preparation to enhance the credibility of Joshua, So the People would welcome him on behalf of Moses.
[/quote]

And it was to establish Joshua a what?

As we have seen above, he was Joshua. But even if he had been Jesus, Christians would be in grave trouble. Jesus came to confirm Judaism to the letter and they follow the antagnistic religion of Paul, which is Christianity.​

You do have a problem with the apostle Paul, don’t you? Now are you aware that we Christians believe that Paul was the instrument that the Lord chose for the evangelization of the gentiles ​

This is the same Servant spoken of in Isaiah 41:8,9. Israel by name

.​

Not to me Jesus made it clear that there was another fold that He came to save that his mission was to save what it was lost of the House of Israel plus the gentiles that God draws to the savior​

That's Israel, the Jewish People all right, confirmed by Jesus himself when in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, he said, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)

​

​

Israel was to be a blessing to the world, a holy priesthood, Have they been any of that? ​

 

[Sola'lor]

The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

TNK (Tanakh). Not quite TNT..... as secular History confirms.

Ben

Wait... How does this end Christianity?

 

[sojourner]

The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

TNK (Tanakh). Not quite TNT but it will explode all the same as to bring down one of the pillars of Christianity. T stands for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim. Torah is the Law, Neviim are the prophetic books, and Ketuvim, are the historical or literary books.

According to Judaism, there were 55 Prophets in the History of Israel, and Daniel was not one of them. Therefore, when the Jewish Canon was organized, the book of Daniel was not taken in consideration as a prophetic book. So, the book of Daniel was accounted among the historical books of the Tanakh.

Why? How could such a book as the book of Daniel not be considered among the prophetic books of the Tanakh but a literary book of History?

First and foremost, the book of Daniel was not written by Daniel. Second, the book takes its name, not from the author, who is actually unknown, but from its hero, a young Jew taken earlier to Babylon, where he lived at least until 538 BCE.

The Book of Daniel was written during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV (167-164 BCE) with the purpose to strengthen and comfort the Jewish People in their ordeal. Probably, the same author of the Book of Daniel wrote also the two volumes of the book of the Maccabees.

Then, the book was patronized by John Hyrcanus, a Jewish King from the Hasmonian Dynasty, who died in 104 BCE. He was famous for promoting Art and Literature.

Now, for the Christian pillar that has collapsed with this revelation about Daniel. The TNT resides in the famous so-called "prophetic" frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which was written after the facts, as it classifies the book of Daniel as a historical and not prophetic book.

Therefore, here ends the bickering and babel of confusion to try to fit Jesus into a prophecy which was never a prophecy in the first place. However, as a historical book, the author, who, nobody knows was, did gain his place for the accuracy of events, as secular History confirms.

Ben

Your TNT is wet. I can't for the life of me figure out why you're trying to tear Xy down in the first place, but oh well...

It's always a mistake to read "Jesus" into any OT prophetic reference. The best Xian scholars have known this for quite some time now. We know that the OT writers didn't know about Jesus, nor were they hoping to prophesy Jesus. Additionally, later Jewish historians would not have written about Jesus, since they didn't perceive him as the Messiah. Real Xians don't need Daniel to support Jesus as Messiah.

 

[Ben Masada]

quote=Ben Masada


And before you assume that he was Jesus, let me tell you that he was Joshua. And it was not a prophecy. It was in preparation to enhance the credibility of Joshua, So the People would welcome him on behalf of Moses.

And it was to establish Joshua a what?

As the Prophet like Moses, who would take the People into the Promised Land.

You do have a problem with the apostle Paul, don’t you? Now are you aware that we Christians believe that Paul was the instrument that the Lord chose for the evangelization of the gentiles.

Yes, I am aware of that much, but I don't understand, because Paul never decided to go to the Gentiles. Perhaps you can help me find in your own NT when this happened? What we have is that since his first station in Damascus, he was in the synagogues of the Jews and never changed until his last station in Rome. The truth is that he never left the Jews in peace. That's about 98 percent of his missionary activities among the Jews. Two percent of working with Gentiles can hardly classify one as the apostle of the Gentiles.

Not to me Jesus made it clear that there was another fold that He came to save that his mission was to save what it was lost of the House of Israel plus the gentiles that God draws to the savior.

Plus the Gentiles! I wonder how I missed that. What I have here in Matthew 10:5 is that he would even forbid his disciples to bring the good news of his gospel to the Gentiles, and never even enter a Samaritan town, he would warn his disciples. How do you explain your "plus the Gentiles?"

Israel was to be a blessing to the world, a holy priesthood, Have they been any of that?

To ask such a question, you must have never read any book about a History of the Jews. There is a good one from a Christian called Paul Johnston. First of all, if it were not for the Jews, perhaps the world would still be in the cave worshiping the stone and the fire, or perhaps a block of wood in the shape of a demon. You would not have a Bible to read or a Jew to call him your Messiah and Savior.

Visit any University. Jews are heavily represented in the Faculty of Prophessors. Go to any hospital, if the best Doctors are not Jewish, I'll be damned. The most famous Philanthropists in the world are Jewish. Almost all revolutions to grant freedom to peoples have the Jewish blood running in their veins. In the field of research, we would be still dying of many childhood diseases if were not for the Jews. Entertainment! You would not know what is to enjoy a movie if the Jew had not invented Hollywood.

But for a pause in the list, let me finish with Nobel Prizes. The Jews are only 14 millions getting half of all the Nobel Prizes and allowing the other half to be shared among the more than six billions of the rest of Minkind. Is that enough to prove Jesus' words that the Jews are the light of the world or you need more?
Not only the light of the world but also the salt of the earth. Read Matthew 5:13,14 and Isaiah 42:6.

 

[Ben Masada]

Wait... How does this end Christianity?

No, Sola'lor, I don't mean an end to Christianity but to the trump card they make of the "prophetic" frame of the 70 week/years of Daniel 9:24-27 to clean up the table, so to speak, as the checkmate prophecy to guarantee that Jesus is finally established as the Messiah. That's over. That pillar has collapsed.

 

[Ben Masada]

Your TNT is wet. I can't for the life of me figure out why you're trying to tear Xy down in the first place, but oh well...

It's always a mistake to read "Jesus" into any OT prophetic reference. The best Xian scholars have known this for quite some time now. We know that the OT writers didn't know about Jesus, nor were they hoping to prophesy Jesus. Additionally, later Jewish historians would not have written about Jesus, since they didn't perceive him as the Messiah. Real Xians don't need Daniel to support Jesus as Messiah.

Wow Sojouner, you have written a few good posts, and this is one of them. I only hope Christians understand your words and give up Daniel. I agree with you: They don't need him to support their Messiah. I wish they left the whole of the Tanakh and became independent of Judaism, as the other religions are.

You would perhaps reply by saying that's impossible since Jesus was Jewish. Yes, but Christ was not. They should get Paul to be their Messiah by making a Christ out of him.

 

[emiliano]

As the Prophet like Moses, who would take the People into the Promised Land.

[/b]

Yes, I am aware of that much, but I don't understand, because Paul never decided to go to the Gentiles. Perhaps you can help me find in your own NT when this happened? What we have is that since his first station in Damascus, he was in the synagogues of the Jews and never changed until his last station in Rome. The truth is that he never left the Jews in peace. That's about 98 percent of his missionary activities among the Jews. Two percent of working with Gentiles can hardly classify one as the apostle of the Gentiles.

[/b]

Plus the Gentiles! I wonder how I missed that. What I have here in Matthew 10:5 is that he would even forbid his disciples to bring the good news of his gospel to the Gentiles, and never even enter a Samaritan town, he would warn his disciples. How do you explain your "plus the Gentiles?"



To ask such a question, you must have never read any book about a History of the Jews. There is a good one from a Christian called Paul Johnston. First of all, if it were not for the Jews, perhaps the world would still be in the cave worshiping the stone and the fire, or perhaps a block of wood in the shape of a demon. You would not have a Bible to read or a Jew to call him your Messiah and Savior.

Visit any University. Jews are heavily represented in the Faculty of Prophessors. Go to any hospital, if the best Doctors are not Jewish, I'll be damned. The most famous Philanthropists in the world are Jewish. Almost all revolutions to grant freedom to peoples have the Jewish blood running in their veins. In the field of research, we would be still dying of many childhood diseases if were not for the Jews. Entertainment! You would not know what is to enjoy a movie if the Jew had not invented Hollywood.

But for a pause in the list, let me finish with Nobel Prizes. The Jews are only 14 millions getting half of all the Nobel Prizes and allowing the other half to be shared among the more than six billions of the rest of Minkind. Is that enough to prove Jesus' words that the Jews are the light of the world or you need more?
Not only the light of the world but also the salt of the earth. Read Matthew 5:13,14 and Isaiah 42:6.

Ah! So God is an unjust God? I mean all the chastisement, the dispersion, exile, the sending of prophet to prophesy against for what they did, how about the murder the prophets?
And not to forget the great blessings into their Arab cousins and of course the aberration of Zionism. Good one Ben.

 

[Zardoz]

... And not to forget the great blessings into their Arab cousins and of course the aberration of Zionism...

You mean unlike Xians and your crusades against them? You have reason to feel Superior?

Jews lived peacefully among Arabs for centuries, rarely experiencing the kinds of atrocities so common for Jews living among Xians. Zionism was not a reaction against the Jewish experience in Islamic lands but rather the Jewish experience in Xian lands. It's a shame the formation of Israel soured our relations with Ishmael, as we have much more in common with them than with Esau. (Xians)

 

[Zardoz]

...They should get Paul to be their Messiah by making a Christ out of him.

We both know that can never happen. However, from personal experience in one particular 'Messianic' congregation (which I quickly left) I soon learned that in their 'Bible study' it was almost exclusively Paul, and not Yeshua, who's teachings they studied. I found it's this way in many churches, talking to Xians. So Paul is actually their rabbi, it seems to me. Explains a lot, does it not?

 

[emiliano]

Back to the OP and it title: What make think that Christianity is less firm that ever? Zardoz is right Christianity is model after the teaching of Paul under the guidance of the Lord Jesus his master.

Act 18:9
Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent;
Act 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
ct 19:4
Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Rom 1:1
Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
1Cr 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
Eph 3:1
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--
​

 

[saltandlight]

The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

TNK (Tanakh). Not quite TNT but it will explode all the same as to bring down one of the pillars of Christianity. T stands for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim. Torah is the Law, Neviim are the prophetic books, and Ketuvim, are the historical or literary books.

According to Judaism, there were 55 Prophets in the History of Israel, and Daniel was not one of them. Therefore, when the Jewish Canon was organized, the book of Daniel was not taken in consideration as a prophetic book. So, the book of Daniel was accounted among the historical books of the Tanakh.

Why? How could such a book as the book of Daniel not be considered among the prophetic books of the Tanakh but a literary book of History?

First and foremost, the book of Daniel was not written by Daniel. Second, the book takes its name, not from the author, who is actually unknown, but from its hero, a young Jew taken earlier to Babylon, where he lived at least until 538 BCE.

The Book of Daniel was written during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV (167-164 BCE) with the purpose to strengthen and comfort the Jewish People in their ordeal. Probably, the same author of the Book of Daniel wrote also the two volumes of the book of the Maccabees.

Then, the book was patronized by John Hyrcanus, a Jewish King from the Hasmonian Dynasty, who died in 104 BCE. He was famous for promoting Art and Literature.

Now, for the Christian pillar that has collapsed with this revelation about Daniel. The TNT resides in the famous so-called "prophetic" frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which was written after the facts, as it classifies the book of Daniel as a historical and not prophetic book.

Therefore, here ends the bickering and babel of confusion to try to fit Jesus into a prophecy which was never a prophecy in the first place. However, as a historical book, the author, who, nobody knows was, did gain his place for the accuracy of events, as secular History confirms.

Ben

What about Isaiah 52 and 53?

 

[Zardoz]

What about Isaiah 52 and 53?

You mean the Messiah ben Yosef, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53? Yes, Yeshua is Messiah ben Yosef. Not the only one, another will appear at the end of the Age. It may be a return of the same person, maybe not. I'd not be surprised either way.That's all that Yeshua is, not Messiah ben David nor any incarnation of G-d (trinity).

 

[saltandlight]

You mean the Messiah ben Yosef, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53? Yes, Yeshua is Messiah ben Yosef. Not the only one, another will appear at the end of the Age. It may be a return of the same person, maybe not. I'd not be surprised either way.That's all that Yeshua is, not Messiah ben David nor any incarnation of G-d (trinity).

But Yeshua translates to Jesus.
And He will return at the End as you say.