The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[Ben Masada]

Ah! So God is an unjust God? I mean all the chastisement, the dispersion, exile, the sending of prophet to prophesy against for what they did, how about the murder the prophets?
And not to forget the great blessings into their Arab cousins and of course the aberration of Zionism. Good one Ben.

God is not unjust. On the contrary. He chastises us because He wants us to remain as a People before Him forever. Because He loves us. Of the other nations He will eventually make an end of them, but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve. That's in Jeremiah 46:28.

What about murdering the Prophets? Can you show me the Jewish People murdering the Prophets? Better yet, tell me first why the American People have murdered so many of their own Presidents?

Blessing of our Arab cousins? In what sense? They have been trying together with several of their nations for almost 70 years to push us to the sea and only decrease their own people unsuccessfully. Do you call this blessing? I don't think so.

And what about the aberrations of Zionism? Would you care being more specific? I don't get your point.

 

[Ben Masada]

We both know that can never happen. However, from personal experience in one particular 'Messianic' congregation (which I quickly left) I soon learned that in their 'Bible study' it was almost exclusively Paul, and not Yeshua, who's teachings they studied. I found it's this way in many churches, talking to Xians. So Paul is actually their rabbi, it seems to me. Explains a lot, does it not?

You are coming along Zardoz!

 

[Ben Masada]

Back to the OP and it title: What make think that Christianity is less firm that ever?

Well, the whindmills work slow but constantly. The pillars are cracking. I found a crack in the one of Isaiah 4:6. And now in the one that Daniel was not a Prophet. We are getting in there.

Zardoz is right Christianity is model after the teaching of Paul under the guidance of the Lord Jesus his master.

Yes, he is right but he is not too happy with Paul.

Act 18:9

Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; ​

Speak to whom, the Jews? BTW, I wonder when he ever went to the Gentiles.

Act 13:46

Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Great! Did he finally go to the Gentiles? He was in the synagogue of Antioch when he said that. Then, he left and went to the synagogue of Iconium. (Acts 14:1) Tell me, how could he think to find Gentiles in synagogues? The reason is that he was unable to build a church of Gentiles from scratch. So, he would build his churches on the foundations of the Nazarenes. ​

ct 19:4

​

Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." ​

He is assuming. The title of Christ was confered upon Jesus in Antioch, where Paul started preaching about Jesus as Christ. And that was about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. (Acts 11:26)

Rom 1:1

​

Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God ​

Who called him to be an Apostle, Jesus? How come Jesus didn't inform his Pauline call to his own disciples? Because when Paul showed up in Jerusalem trying to join the Sect of the Nazarenes, he was rejected on fears of his previous life of persecutor of the Nazarnes and on suspictions that he was either crazy or lying.

1Cr 3:5

​

Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?​

Paul was the first Christian, founder of Christianity (Acts 11:26) and Apollos was a Nazarene Jew from Alexandria until he met Aquila and Pricilla a couple of Christians converted by Paul from Judaism.

Eph 3:1

​

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--​

That's one of the Nazarene synagogues that Paul had overturned into a Christian church. That's what he loved to do: To act like the cuckoo bird that lays her egg in the nest of other birds so that the parents of other fledgelings would feed hers.




​

 

[Ben Masada]

What about Isaiah 52 and 53?

Isaiah 52 and 53 can no longer be used to point to Jesus. That pillar is also cracking. How? If you don't know, the consensus is that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. Mind you that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name so that you won't have to admit that he could have been an single individual. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

 

[emiliano]

God is not unjust. On the contrary. He chastises us because He wants us to remain as a People before Him forever. Because He loves us. Of the other nations He will eventually make an end of them, but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve. That's in Jeremiah 46:28.

What about murdering the Prophets? Can you show me the Jewish People murdering the Prophets? Better yet, tell me first why the American People have murdered so many of their own Presidents?

Blessing of our Arab cousins? In what sense? They have been trying together with several of their nations for almost 70 years to push us to the sea and only decrease their own people unsuccessfully. Do you call this blessing? I don't think so.

And what about the aberrations of Zionism? Would you care being more specific? I don't get your point.

Ben,
On one hand you accept that that God justly but harshly has a various times chastise your people, but on the other hand you say that the reasons for your trails and tribulations are caused by the Catholic (the crusades), Nazism, Christianity, the Arab’s world, who made these Nation powerful enough to inflict these chastisement? Could it be a massage in all of this? Could it be your people are under purifying chastisement?

 

[Zardoz]

Ben,
On one hand you accept that that God justly but harshly has a various times chastise your people, but on the other hand you say that the reasons for your trails and tribulations are caused by the Catholic (the crusades), Nazism, Christianity, the Arab’s world, who made these Nation powerful enough to inflict these chastisement? Could it be a massage in all of this? Could it be your people are under purifying chastisement?

If I may comment?

The Ishmaelites and Edomites (Arabs and Romans) are also descendants of Abraham, and therefore have blessings. Surely G-d remembered their blessings, giving them Christianity and Islam to keep them in relationship with G-d, even as Israel was unable to serve them due to the end of the Temple. These blessings allow them to be used to chastise Israel, as only they have the honor to do so.

Surely you don't think that all of the suffering inflicted upon Israel is only due to our need for 'chastisement'? If you think this way, you don't understand the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 at all:

ג. 4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. ד. 5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. ה. 6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

Who caused the suffering? The text is clear enough, I think.

 

[emiliano]

Zardoz.
Of course you may, let see; the Ishmaelites and Edomites are descendents of Abraham.’’ What blessing have they received from Israel? I direct you to the fact that Ben think that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is the people of Israel.

Surely you don't think that all of the suffering inflicted upon Israel is only due to our need for 'chastisement'?

Well everything point out to the fact that Israel once again is going against God’s will and that is has been the reason for their chastisement, an example is that they want to have an Israel state founded by the people of Israel when the restored promised state is clearly prophesied as one that God Himself will reestablish and He with will do it with a mighty hand in His time, man cannot buy it, or win it by force, yet they obstinately try to do just that, oppressing, taken land by force, hating and causing misery.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben,
On one hand you accept that that God justly but harshly has a various times chastise your people, but on the other hand you say that the reasons for your trails and tribulations are caused by the Catholic (the crusades), Nazism, Christianity, the Arab’s world, who made these Nation powerful enough to inflict these chastisement? Could it be a massage in all of this? Could it be your people are under purifying chastisement?

It is true that men are the tools in the "hands" of God to deal with men. To get Israel out of Egypt, Moses was used for the job. Jeremiah prophesied that after 70 years of exile in Babylon, God would provide the return of the People to the Land of Israel. Men again was the medium.

I believe that this last exile which lasted almost 2000 years had ended in 1914, but the Jews were too comfortable in the Diaspora. The Nazis were used to remind us that the time to return had arrived. But where to return to if other peoples had taken over our land?

We bought most of our own Land with money, local Arabs in the region opened wars to get us out of here and lost, and we reconquered what had been ours in the first place. Somehow, we have obeyed the Divine call to return. We could not wait for any other supernatural way to resettle our Land, but the old fashion way that God uses: Men dealing with men.

Yes, God uses nations to punish other nations, according to some system of cause and effect. But now, and especially after the last bout with the Nazis, we have been fairing quite well.

And with regards to the Palestinian problem, although it has been a weight on our backs, the blame resides with themselves and the Arabic countries which have caused most of their oppression. After all, they were the ones who created the problem by forcing their exile from Israel under the false promise that they would return after the Jews had been pushed into the sea. It was a fiasco. They should be rather thankful to us that we didn't push them into the desert. I don't believe that their oppression is Jewish but caused by their own brothers.

The logical conclusion therefore, is not purifying chastisement. But a way to be aware of reality by doing our part in the struggle
to survive.

 

[Zardoz]

... I direct you to the fact that Ben think that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is the people of Israel.

As do I !

The main difference between Ben and myself is that his world view does not require an individual Messianic figure, while I see three elements to the prophetic vision; namely a Leader who is a sign that the People are entering a new Age (Age -that is to say a change of purpose and/or status)

The Man, The People, The Age. That's Messiah ben Yosef. Our Age. The same formula will bring about Messiah ben David, may he come soon.

... an example is that they want to have an Israel state founded by the people of Israel when the restored promised state is clearly prophesied as one that God Himself will reestablish and He with will do it with a mighty hand in His time...

First off, why do you insist on focusing on the modern country of Israel? What about the nineteen centuries of persecution and mass murder we had to endure before Zionism even existed?

Secondly, since we still have no place on the Temple Mount to rebuild our Temple, and only Divine Intervention could change this fact, don't you think G-d still has a very big part to play in the full restoration of Israel? I do.

 

[emiliano]

Zardoz,

First off, why do you insist on focusing on the modern country of Israel? What about the nineteen centuries of persecution and mass murder we had to endure before Zionism even existed.

Well that is the whole matter, the Israelites lost it and they did it through disobedience, excessive pride and general stiff-necked, God will restore them and my believe is that He will do it in the same way that He did in Moses time, with great show of power and wonders.

Secondly, since we still have no place on the Temple Mount to rebuild our Temple, and only Divine Intervention could change this fact, don't you think G-d still has a very big part to play in the full restoration of Israel? I do.

Again you are referring to a state that human’s hand found and sustain, the real restored state is the one God Himself will restore to them.

 

[allright]

Daniel was put as a history book by Jewish leaders because it points to Jesus as the Messiah and because it says the Messiah must come before the Temple is destroyed (70AD) again pointing to Jesus.

As for the time Daniel was written, the study of the Dead Sea Scrolls has clearly shown the Book of Daniel was written long before the events happened. Even the extreme liberal theologian Martin Noth
based on the evidence from the dead sea scrolls now admits it was written before the events happened.

Also the Dead Sea Scrolls have shown that Daniel was honored as a great prophet in 100BC.

 

[Ben Masada]

Daniel was put as a history book by Jewish leaders because it points to Jesus as the Messiah and because it says the Messiah must come before the Temple is destroyed (70AD) again pointing to Jesus.

As for the time Daniel was written, the study of the Dead Sea Scrolls has clearly shown the Book of Daniel was written long before the events happened. Even the extreme liberal theologian Martin Noth
based on the evidence from the dead sea scrolls now admits it was written before the events happened.

Also the Dead Sea Scrolls have shown that Daniel was honored as a great prophet in 100BC.

The Jewish authorities are not alone at that. Catholic Scholars also deffend the assertion that the Book of Daniel was written by an unknown author during the years 167 to 164 BCE. Jesus was another more than 100 years before being born. The events of the book had happened over 300 years prior to being written. Therefore, your theory goes up to the birds.

 

[logician]

The relationship between the OT and NT is contrived. None of the prophecies of the OT has anything to do with the NT fables. The OT prophesies were for their day and time only, not hundreds or thousands of years hence. NT writers wrote their fiction to make it appear that some OT prophecies had been fulfilled. That's how they did business.

 

[sojourner]

The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

TNK (Tanakh). Not quite TNT but it will explode all the same as to bring down one of the pillars of Christianity. T stands for Torah, N for Neviim, and K for Ketuvim. Torah is the Law, Neviim are the prophetic books, and Ketuvim, are the historical or literary books.

According to Judaism, there were 55 Prophets in the History of Israel, and Daniel was not one of them. Therefore, when the Jewish Canon was organized, the book of Daniel was not taken in consideration as a prophetic book. So, the book of Daniel was accounted among the historical books of the Tanakh.

Why? How could such a book as the book of Daniel not be considered among the prophetic books of the Tanakh but a literary book of History?

First and foremost, the book of Daniel was not written by Daniel. Second, the book takes its name, not from the author, who is actually unknown, but from its hero, a young Jew taken earlier to Babylon, where he lived at least until 538 BCE.

The Book of Daniel was written during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV (167-164 BCE) with the purpose to strengthen and comfort the Jewish People in their ordeal. Probably, the same author of the Book of Daniel wrote also the two volumes of the book of the Maccabees.

Then, the book was patronized by John Hyrcanus, a Jewish King from the Hasmonian Dynasty, who died in 104 BCE. He was famous for promoting Art and Literature.

Now, for the Christian pillar that has collapsed with this revelation about Daniel. The TNT resides in the famous so-called "prophetic" frame of Daniel 9:24-27, which was written after the facts, as it classifies the book of Daniel as a historical and not prophetic book.

Therefore, here ends the bickering and babel of confusion to try to fit Jesus into a prophecy which was never a prophecy in the first place. However, as a historical book, the author, who, nobody knows was, did gain his place for the accuracy of events, as secular History confirms.

Ben

Which pillar would that be, exactly? Boaz (strength), or Jachin (to establish)?

Your argument is a loose straw man, since no Christian Biblical scholar worth his salt reads "Jesus" into any OT prophecy.

 

[allright]

The Jewish authorities are not alone at that. Catholic Scholars also deffend the assertion that the Book of Daniel was written by an unknown author during the years 167 to 164 BCE. Jesus was another more than 100 years before being born. The events of the book had happened over 300 years prior to being written. Therefore, your theory goes up to the birds.

This is as bad as its gets. You now quote the Catholic Church as your authority on archeology and the truth of Scripture.
Since the Catholic Church is your authority on Scripture than you must belive Jesus is the Son of God and you should pray to Mary
The dating of Daniel depends on archeological evidence, not the opinion of Jewish or Christians Scholars.

 

[Brother2]

Hey guys sounds like your all in Babylon/Confusion...that comes with rejection of Bible Truth ending up being Blown about by Every Wind of Doctrine and Man's Traditions and Opinions....:no:

test them to see if there is any Light in them...to the Law and the Testimony...the Word of God ladies and gentlemen!!:yes:

 

[Brother2]

The Jewish authorities are not alone at that. Catholic Scholars also deffend the assertion that the Book of Daniel was written by an unknown author during the years 167 to 164 BCE. Jesus was another more than 100 years before being born. The events of the book had happened over 300 years prior to being written. Therefore, your theory goes up to the birds.

This is as bad as its gets. You now quote the Catholic Church as your authority on archeology and the truth of Scripture.
Since the Catholic Church is your authority on Scripture than you must belive Jesus is the Son of God and you should pray to Mary
The dating of Daniel depends on archeological evidence, not the opinion of Jewish or Christians Scholars.

Catholic church the authority on Scripture:sleep::sorry1: NO absulutely NOT friend...

Not to say that Roman Catholic Church has no truth...because they do have a lot of GOOD beliefs too...especially Salvation by Grace through Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ alone!

With All Respect Friend Rome is simply Confusion and Babylon...that's why the Reformers were Raised up by God:shout And also with Respect friend...no point in praying to mary because she is dead and buried and awaiting the resurection at the Second Coming of her Son...:yes:

So, With All Respect...:no:

 

[Zardoz]

Catholic church the authority on Scripture NO absulutely NOT friend...

Who canonized the NT then? Until the Reformation, the Catholic church WAS christianity. Sure, some Apocrypha got (rightly) dropped by protestants, but the NT is a Catholic creation, and basically unchanged.

 

[Brother2]

Who canonized the NT then? Until the Reformation, the Catholic church WAS christianity. Sure, some Apocrypha got (rightly) dropped by protestants, but the NT is a Catholic creation, and basically unchanged.

Hi Sean...wow Bond, James Bond :help:

Yes there was 1 church until the :shout Reformers came to Reform the Apostate church....:sorry1:

Anyway it was the Early Church of Peter and Paul that canonized the NT before it became the Roman Church??

Even if it had been taken over by Rome...that was all the church there was so God used the Best Available:candle:

I agree with you otherwise friend Zardox!!

Shalom. May God bless all here. i'm a brother2.:clap

 

[Jeremy Mason]