The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[Brother2]

:clap Proud to be here and a member of the:camp::grill:

 

[sojourner]

Who canonized the NT then? Until the Reformation, the Catholic church WAS christianity. Sure, some Apocrypha got (rightly) dropped by protestants, but the NT is a Catholic creation, and basically unchanged.

BZZZZT! Thanks for playing our game. We have some lovely parting gifts for you, including the home version of our game.

The Church has always been divided between East (Orthodox) and West (Roman Catholic). Some periods of division were less drastic than others, but...no. You're patently wrong about that. In addition, the Church has never been unified as you seem to think it has been.

How do you know (and by what authority do you speak) that some books were "rightly" dropped? Are you not aware that the Christian canon was set before the Jewish canon?

 

[sojourner]

Hi Sean...wow Bond, James Bond :help:

Yes there was 1 church until the :shout Reformers came to Reform the Apostate church....:sorry1:

Anyway it was the Early Church of Peter and Paul that canonized the NT before it became the Roman Church??

Even if it had been taken over by Rome...that was all the church there was so God used the Best Available:candle:

I agree with you otherwise friend Zardox!!

Shalom. May God bless all here. i'm a brother2.:clap

In a sense, there has always been "one Church." However, that one Church has always been extant in a variety of forms, with a variety of beliefs and practices -- even from the beginning. The Reformers changed nothing, except to further diversify and water down the Roman version. And the Church was no more "apostate" in the 1500's than it had been at any other period in its history.

It was not the "early Church of Peter and Paul" that set the canon. The canon, as we have it, wasn't set until the mid-400's c.e.

The Church wasn't "taken over" by Rome. The power of the Church was largely divided between Constantinople and Rome for many, many years. Those two major divisions settled the canon, with help from others.

 

[Brother2]

OK thanks for that. I agree with part or much of what you said brother.

Problem I have is that under Rome's papal rule paganism came in to the Christian Church...and I shall not list them in case I offend...but I am sure you know the Prod view?:sorry1:

God raised up the Reformers to start the Reformation of the Christian Church and the Reformers had no intention of leaving but they were excommunicated, persecuted and sometimes burned at the stake for their pains..... as did the church of England of course.

At this point let me Repeat my oft said Point that I Respect you as a Fellow Christian and have Christian love for you so don't even think anything else.....if I met you I would hug you..ha ha if you wanted to obviously!!

Yes God overseen the choosing of the canon even though the Apocrophal part was added later...

So ok, now we have One Roman Church and over 200 others...does not mean yours is the 1 true church of course...just that the others have made a mess of it too....ha ha!:foot:

Shalom. May God bless all here. brother2.:shout

 

[Ben Masada]

Which pillar would that be, exactly? Boaz (strength), or Jachin (to establish)?

Your argument is a loose straw man, since no Christian Biblical scholar worth his salt reads "Jesus" into any OT prophecy.

Try the SDA's people. They consider Daniel 9:24-27 as the trump card to clean the table so to speak, when they want to checkmate, as Jesus being the Messiah is concerned. Well, the game is over and they have been caught pants down.

 

[Zardoz]

...The Church has always been divided between East (Orthodox) and West (Roman Catholic).

Oh really? How come the history books mark the 'Great Schism' as occurring during the 11th century? Don't really care myself, from my perspective most Xians, modern or ancient, east or west, are the same. Despite their internal dogmatic disputes.

? Are you not aware that the Christian canon was set before the Jewish canon?

Really? Latin Vulgate was written around 380. Earliest attempt of a canon was supposedly in the Egyptian church, but that was not much earlier around 360.

There is no Jewish 'bible' like the Xian 'bible', we have the Tanakh. The word Tanakh stands for The Torah (5 books of Moses), Nevi'im (The Prophets) and the Ketuvim (The Writings).

Torah was canonized, well, by Moses himself. The Prophets were finalized around 200 BCE. The Writings about 100 CE, but there's dispute among scholars exactly when this ended. However, it's not all that important, because The Writings are not Torah or Prophets. So the most important books were all canon long long before Xianity.

 

[sojourner]

Problem I have is that under Rome's papal rule paganism came in to the Christian Church

Paganism has nothing to do with Rome, exclusively, papal or otherwise. There has always been a strong pagan influence (Roman and otherwise) in the Church, since the Church was largely comprised of Gentiles. If you think that, at one time, there was some "pure" form of Xy, you're mistaken.

but I am sure you know the Prod view?:sorry1:

Of course I do. What of it?

Yes God overseen the choosing of the canon even though the Apocrophal part was added later

Actually, the apocryphal books were removed, not added by the reformers.

So ok, now we have One Roman Church and over 200 others

Just as we've always had the Church at Ephesus, the Church at Antioch, the Church at Alexandria, the Church at Jerusalem, the Church at Rome, the Church at Constantinople, und soweider, und soweider, und soweider...

does not mean yours is the 1 true church of course

We've never claimed to be. We've always said that "we are not the only Christians, but Christians only."

.just that the others have made a mess of it too

Everyone has done their share of mess-making, just as did Adam, Isaac, Jacob, his sons, Saul, David ... need I go on? We are all flawed human beings whom God chooses to use for God's purposes.

 

[sojourner]

Try the SDA's people. They consider Daniel 9:24-27 as the trump card to clean the table so to speak, when they want to checkmate, as Jesus being the Messiah is concerned. Well, the game is over and they have been caught pants down.

Please note my caveat:

no Christian Biblical scholar worth his salt

 

[sojourner]

Oh really? How come the history books mark the 'Great Schism' as occurring during the 11th century?

"Great" implies that there were other, more minor ones.

from my perspective most Xians, modern or ancient, east or west, are the same. Despite their internal dogmatic disputes.

From ours, too. "There is", after all, "one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism."

Earliest attempt of a canon was supposedly in the Egyptian church, but that was not much earlier around 360.

There were earlier lists than that. The canon was "officially" set by the mid-400's.

Torah was canonized, well, by Moses himself. The Prophets were finalized around 200 BCE. The Writings about 100 CE, but there's dispute among scholars exactly when this ended. However, it's not all that important, because The Writings are not Torah or Prophets. So the most important books were all canon long long before Xianity.

I disagree. We know that the OT scriptures, as we have them today, did not come into existence before about 650. There were, of course, earlier writings, but the editions that were eventually canonized came much, much later than Moses.
BTW, when were those writings "officially" canonized? I'd always heard it was around the 6th or 7th century c.e.

 

[Ben Masada]

Please note my caveat:

I find it very strange that you, as a Christian, do not dance according to the Christian song.

 

[sojourner]

I find it very strange that you, as a Christian, do not dance according to the Christian song.

And how would you -- as a Jew -- be familiar with all the stanzas, harmonies, rhythms, and structures of the Christian song?

I heard part of something on the radio. I mistook it for "Werewolves of London." It ended up being "Prop Me Up by the Jukebox When I Die."

I happen to be orthodox. The SDA's are not. Therefore, they produce no orthodox Biblical Scholars "worth their salt." I'm sure they feel the same about me.
That's OK.

 

[Zardoz]

... We know that the OT scriptures, as we have them today, did not come into existence before about 650...

650? 650 CE??? Maybe your so-called OT came that late, but the Talmud notes that the Torah was canonized the final time in 450 BCE by the K'nesset, and as I said the Prophets were most likely canonized by 200 BCE at least that's the widely accepted date by Jewish scholars.

BTW, when were those writings "officially" canonized? I'd always heard it was around the 6th or 7th century c.e.

Only the few Apocrypha writings could have been an issue that late.

 

[sojourner]

650? 650 CE???

650 bce

 

[Ben Masada]

And how would you -- as a Jew -- be familiar with all the stanzas, harmonies, rhythms, and structures of the Christian song?

"I have read your book."

 

[sojourner]

"I have read your book."

I've read yours, too. Doesn't make me an expert on Judaism.:beach:

 

[logician]

Christian teaching is Paulistic, but doctrine is NT.

 

[Zardoz]

I've read yours, too. Doesn't make me an expert on Judaism.

Unless one is a theologian or scholar by trade, none of us on RF are really 'experts' in our own faith, much less another faith. However, Jews do have an advantage understanding what Yeshua is saying, as he's a fellow Jew. The later stuff of Paul, seems more removed from our traditions but I see what Paul is doing as outreach to the gentiles, repackaging the message for a new audience. Some pure gentile stuff in the NT, such as 'revelations', may as well be from the moon in a Jew's perspective. A christian attempting the reverse, attempting to understand the Tanakh from the gentile christian perspective, is at a distinct disadvantage, IMHO.

 

[sojourner]

Unless one is a theologian or scholar by trade, none of us on RF are really 'experts' in our own faith, much less another faith. However, Jews do have an advantage understanding what Yeshua is saying, as he's a fellow Jew.

A slight advantage, yes. But even you'll have to admit that today's Judaism is very little like the Judaism of Jesus' day. But, OK. That's a gimme.
In trade, you'll have to admit that we have a certain advantage in understanding Paul. Slight, but there, and subject to the same provisos I laid out for you above.

The later stuff of Paul, seems more removed from our traditions but I see what Paul is doing as outreach to the gentiles, repackaging the message for a new audience. Some pure gentile stuff in the NT, such as 'revelations', may as well be from the moon in a Jew's perspective.

Absolutely. And Jews are at a disadvantage there.

A christian attempting the reverse, attempting to understand the Tanakh from the gentile christian perspective, is at a distinct disadvantage, IMHO.

Well, that's not just your humble opinion, that's reality.

That being said, I'm not convinced that Ben's practice of couching Jesus in purely Jewish terms is correct, since the only information we have about Jesus comes to us from sources that were "other" than mainstream Judaism.

 

[allright]

The Book of Daniel clearly shows the Messiah was to come before the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
Josepheus called Daniel one of the greatest of the Prophets.
The Dead Sea Scrolls showed Daniel was considered an honored prophet
Jesus called him the Prophet Daniel.
The current Jewish Cannon was put together long afterwards and represents the opinion of men long after the facts.
Daniel states the Messiah will bring final kippur.
"Without the shedding of blood their is no forgivness for sin"
The sacrifice had to be without blemish eta "sinless"
To bring final Kippur the Messiah (Yeshua) had to die
Isaiah 10 When he makes himself an offering for sin
He shall bear their iniquities
Because he hath poured out his soul unto death
The Messiah would be raised from the dead.
Isaiah 10 He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied

 

[sojourner]

The Book of Daniel clearly shows the Messiah was to come before the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
Josepheus called Daniel one of the greatest of the Prophets.
The Dead Sea Scrolls showed Daniel was considered an honored prophet
Jesus called him the Prophet Daniel.
The current Jewish Cannon was put together long afterwards and represents the opinion of men long after the facts.
Daniel states the Messiah will bring final kippur.
"Without the shedding of blood their is no forgivness for sin"
The sacrifice had to be without blemish eta "sinless"
To bring final Kippur the Messiah (Yeshua) had to die
Isaiah 10 When he makes himself an offering for sin
He shall bear their iniquities
Because he hath poured out his soul unto death
The Messiah would be raised from the dead.
Isaiah 10 He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied

Prophecy isn't "forecasting the future." It's a telling of the naked truth of the way things are in God's eyes.