The Collapse of a Christian Pillar

[logician]

Prophecy isn't "forecasting the future.".

Correct, forecasting the future is impossible in a chaotic universe.

 

[allright]

Prophecy isn't "forecasting the future." It's a telling of the naked truth of the way things are in God's eyes.

I'm trying to show a Jewish unbeliever Jesus is the Messiah and you want to argue about word definitions.

 

[Zardoz]

Actually, it's both.

Ben already knows a lot about Yeshua, no need to show him anything.

Welcome to RF, and since you're new please read the forum rules it will help your stay:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item

 

[Ben Masada]

I've read yours, too. Doesn't make me an expert on Judaism.:beach:

In that case, it must be something wrong with either you or your book, because from having read it once or twice I feel like the expert who finds no answers to his questions from the writers.

 

[Ben Masada]

Christian teaching is Paulistic, but doctrine is NT.

Behold! I agree with the Logician.:clap

 

[sojourner]

I'm trying to show a Jewish unbeliever Jesus is the Messiah and you want to argue about word definitions.

You're going about it the wrong way. You're using Daniel as a forecast of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

In that case, it must be something wrong with either you or your book, because from having read it once or twice I feel like the expert who finds no answers to his questions from the writers.

What you "feel" is of no importance.

 

[sojourner]

Behold! I agree with the Logician.:clap

Not surprising. Both of you are off-track.

 

[allright]

You're going about it the wrong way. You're using Daniel as a forecast of Jesus.

Daniel is a forecast of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Daniel is a forecast of Jesus.

To you, perhaps. But not according to Daniel. Daniel didn't know about Jesus.

 

[allright]

Liberal Critics claimed Daniel had to be written after the events happened because no human could predict the furture like he did.
Now from the evidence of the Dead Sea scrolls we know they were written before the events happened, therefore since no human can predicit the future like he did, God must have told him.
Since he didnt know Titus I guess he coudnt predict the temple would be destoyed either

 

[sojourner]

Liberal Critics claimed Daniel had to be written after the events happened because no human could predict the furture like he did.
Now from the evidence of the Dead Sea scrolls we know they were written before the events happened, therefore since no human can predicit the future like he did, God must have told him.
Since he didnt know Titus I guess he coudnt predict the temple would be destoyed either

Biblical scholars argue that Daniel was written earlier. They also argue that Daniel did not have Jesus in mind when he prophesied. They will tell you that it's always a big mistake to read "Jesus" into OT references to "Messiah." That Daniel meant "Jesus" is a much, much later Xian interpolation, and not accurate according to Daniel.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Who canonized the NT then? Until the Reformation, the Catholic church WAS christianity. Sure, some Apocrypha got (rightly) dropped by protestants, but the NT is a Catholic creation, and basically unchanged.

That is far from correct...
There were and still are many ancient Christian churches, including the various Orthodox ones, then you can add the Coptic's and Ethiopian branches which pre date the church of Rome. Prior to the creation of the Roman Church there were many other Christian traditions that did not necessarily agree with either the Nature of Christ or the Trinity. And certainly not the later doctrines of Augustine of Hippo, which have coloured the Roman and Protestant church ever since.

The New testament seems to have been selected and edited in such a way as to use the OT to validate many of its beliefs.
I personally do not find this helpful... The belief in Jesus needs no Justification.

 

[allright]

Biblical scholars argue that Daniel was written earlier. They also argue that Daniel did not have Jesus in mind when he prophesied. They will tell you that it's always a big mistake to read "Jesus" into OT references to "Messiah." That Daniel meant "Jesus" is a much, much later Xian interpolation, and not accurate according to Daniel.

Anyone who says its a mistake to read Jesus into the Old Testament refrences to Messiah is spiritually blind as a bat.
As for Biblical Scholars, the only one who can rightly understand the Bible is a born again
Christian being taught by the Holy Spirit.
I've read some of their Biblical expertise, its amazing to me that anyone can take such nonsense with a straight face.
Jesus said "I thank you Father that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding
and revealed them unto babes, for such was your gracious will"

 

[sojourner]

Anyone who says its a mistake to read Jesus into the Old Testament refrences to Messiah is spiritually blind as a bat.

In what way are you qualified to make such a judgment? Or is it simply your opinion?

As for Biblical Scholars, the only one who can rightly understand the Bible is a born again
Christian being taught by the Holy Spirit.

MY OT professor is such a person. And that's what he says about superimposing Jesus onto OT prophecy. Hmmm... theory #2 shot out of the water...

I've read some of their Biblical expertise, its amazing to me that anyone can take such nonsense with a straight face.

It might be amazing to you. It's not to those of us who take scholarship seriously.

Jesus said "I thank you Father that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding
and revealed them unto babes, for such was your gracious will"

Most agree that this is not an authentic quotation of Jesus, but a later interpolation.

You'll have to do better than that.

 

[allright]

I repeat "Your Old Testament teacher is as blind as a bat if hes teaching such nonesense."

As for basing your truth on majority opinion, Jesus said most are going to Hell, Few are going to Heaven.

As I said before the only one who can rightly interpret the Bible is a born again Christian being taught by the Holy Spirit, thats why I'm qualified.

Who are you calling a Biblical Scholar. In speaking of the Biblical scholars of his day Jesus said "If a blind man leads a blind man they will both fall into a pit."

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The role of Biblical scholarship has alway bothered me.
It is clear that is necessary to continue the education of Christians from age to age.
but it is something of a two edged sword.
Neither ancient nor new interpretations of biblical texts are necessarily correct, and certainly not in every detail.
The problem is that the older an interpretation is the more it becomes established as fact. However it become no more nor less true than it was originally, and can become the basis of further interpretations, that might err to an even greater extent.

Most interpretations are arrived at using the best scholarship available, about the life and times and language of the period being considered; and by cross referencing source documents, with other information that seems applicable. Some times this works well other times it can be building on straw foundations.

We have been doing this for some 2000 years. yet we know that if some of the earliest religious/political decisions had gone in the competing directions, then Christianity would look and feel very different to day.

Major choices involved the Trinity and the nature of Jesus. The Change from a Jesus the Good shepherd to Jesus in Majesty. The declaration of many Early Churches and teachings to be Heretical by the new Church in Rome. BY the introduction of Confession and absolution in the 600's. By the acceptance of the Old Testament as a source of prophecy relating to Jesus, and of original sin. The list goes on and is very long indeed.

All these Choices have Given the Church a very different aspect to that of the early church or even the church existing in the catacombs , before it became the imperial religion.

It is no wonder there are so many flavors of Christianity
And why "True Christian" is meaningless.

 

[sojourner]

I repeat "Your Old Testament teacher is as blind as a bat if hes teaching such nonesense."

Hmmm... "taught by the H.S.," yet "blind as a bat."
Sorry Doesn't follow.
How do you know you're not "blind as a bat?"

As for basing your truth on majority opinion, Jesus said most are going to Hell, Few are going to Heaven.

Where? Where does Jesus ever say, "Most are going to hell?" Sorry! It ain't in there.

As I said before the only one who can rightly interpret the Bible is a born again Christian being taught by the Holy Spirit, thats why I'm qualified.

My OT prof is born again, and taught by the H.S. He says differently than you. I wonder who's right?! I'm placing my bet with the one who has spent a life studying the languages, cultures, literary forms and mythology of the Bible.

Who are you calling a Biblical Scholar.

See above:

one who has spent a life studying the languages, cultures, literary forms and mythology of the Bible.

In speaking of the Biblical scholars of his day Jesus said "If a blind man leads a blind man they will both fall into a pit."

Jesus wasn't speaking about Bible scholars. He was speaking about lawyers.

Don't be so quick to bash the scholars. Who do you think it was that gave you the Bible in the vernacular to begin with???

 

[allright]

Your not suppose to be placing your bet on any man. What a way to speak of spending eternity in Heaven or Hell.

If your Professor says Daniel isnt refering to Jesus he dosent have a clue

You claim your a Christian. Daniel states within the 70 weeks final attonement will be made for sin. If thats not Jesus who is it Donald Duck

Most are going to Hell Jesus didnt say that?

Jesus said "Fear not little flock , it is the fathers good pleasure to give you the kingdom; and
The way is hard and the road narrow that leads to life and those that find it are few
The way is easy and the gate wide that leads todestruction and many there are that find it.

Jesus wasn't taking about the Lawyers, He was talking about the Pharisees who were the final authority on all scripture and judged the Jewish people under the law of Moses. Mathew 15:12-14

Jesus on the Biblical Scholars of his day Mathew 23
"Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites Ye blind guides which strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. How are you to escape being sentenced to Hell
For the sake of your traditions you make void the word of God. etc

Do you really consider yourself a Christian or are you just having fun.

 

[sojourner]

Your not suppose to be placing your bet on any man. What a way to speak of spending eternity in Heaven or Hell.

I wasn't speaking of heaven/hell. I was speaking of whom I trust more in matters of Biblical exegesis: You or a qualified scholar. Again, my vote goes to the scholar.

You claim your a Christian. Daniel states within the 70 weeks final attonement will be made for sin. If thats not Jesus who is it Donald Duck

Cite your references.

Most are going to Hell Jesus didnt say that?

No.

Jesus said "Fear not little flock , it is the fathers good pleasure to give you the kingdom; and
The way is hard and the road narrow that leads to life and those that find it are few
The way is easy and the gate wide that leads todestruction and many there are that find it.

"Destruction does not = "hell."
"Finding the gate" does not = "going to hell."
Your eisegesis is showing...

Jesus wasn't taking about the Lawyers, He was talking about the Pharisees who were the final authority on all scripture and judged the Jewish people under the law of Moses. Mathew 15:12-14

And who is it that interprets law???
Hmmm... let me think...
a lawyer. Do you not understand who the Pharisees were? Or didn't the H.S. teach you that detail?

Jesus on the Biblical Scholars of his day Mathew 23
"Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites Ye blind guides which strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. How are you to escape being sentenced to Hell
For the sake of your traditions you make void the word of God. etc

First off, You're not Jesus, so it's not up to you to judge anyone.
Second, Scholars of Jesus' time were vastly different than Biblical scholars of the present day -- Jesus wasn't speaking of them.

Do you really consider yourself a Christian or are you just having fun.

Do you really consider yourself a Christian, or are you just being judgmental for giggles?