The Creation

[Metempsychosis]

Hey brother i have no intention of preaching as i dont have that kind of knowledge ,and am not inviting you to any truth the Truth is already there just use the Logic and reason you have been granted ...take care

Thanks ...I will take care...

 

[AFRICAN]

Thank you AFRICAN for your message. It certainly adds spice to our debate.

[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.

First the term "We" who are the "we"?, rather than "I" eg Allah (swt) the creator. The term "Man" is that the finished adult male, an embryo or a single fertile cell. Remember cells were only discovered after the invention of the microscope, in the late 17th century, when diseases were still regarded as evil spirits or aires because microbiology had yet to be discovered. Also Montmorillonite is usually white or yellowish not black. Most animals including humans do tend to make sounds, so is it refering to the raw materials or finished product man that is making the noise, another ambiguity with multiple interpretations. Still very vague. Afterall many types of life actually move, it could possibly be interpreted as mechanical sound.

I read the above Qaranic extract literally as "humans were made of and shaped from a black clay which had a property giving forth sound."

Many solids and gases exhibit this photoacoustic effect including montmorillonite so the effect is not uncommon. However in the case of Montmorillonite the excitation is in the infrared part of the spectrum and the acoustic or mechanical crystal latice distortion the absorbed energy creates is at frequencies that can not be really described as "sound" ie well out side any hearing frequency. Normal hearing is in the range of 25-25000Hz, dogs bats whales can hear much higher frequencies over 100,000hz. but still we are out side the range these minerals oscillate at which is in the MHz region. This clay will oscillate when an infrared laser is shone at it, but no one will ever hear it ie no sound. It also requires heating to 600-1400C to observe the effect.

see

KRISHNA BUKKA AND J. D. MILLER, Clays and Clay Minerals, Vol. 40, No. 1, 92-102, 1992.

Montmorillonite is a clay that swells when water is added, like Benonite, so it is regularly used to line water dams and toxic waste dumps to swell and form a sealing layer isolating it from the rest of the environment and stop leaks to the surrounding soil. If Allah (swt) had wanted us to clearly recognise this particular clay why did he not tell us of the more visible and obvious water swelling properties. eg

[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that swells with water, of white or yellowish mud fashioned as a mould.

Also clay in the shaping stage is a bit like lead. It does not make much sound, more of a thud, but when fired it can ring like a bell, a definite sound, but the verse says nothing of a firing process. Yet this is a more logical interpretation of the mention "gives forth sound" bit.

I guess the key argument against the interpretation that Montmorillonite is NOT what humans are made of, is the fact that these clays are Silicates, the silicon content of your average human is trace only, usually only breathed in dust. It is clear from the text that man is supposed to be made totally OF clay. That is then some how transmuted to carbon, and then animated. For silicate to transmutate into organic carbon, is as valid as turning lead to gold. It might be done in miniscule quantities but you would need a big nuclear reactor to do it and even then to break up Silicon element 28 to carbon element 12 and at least oxygen element 16, is not a normal fission reaction. So I see this as the main failing of the argument. The silcon is just not there.

I think you are grasping at straws when you claim that the Koran literally defines montmonillonite as THE clay, described. To me the Quran and Bible should not to be read literally, they are a series totally metaphorical moral examples of how to live in a society. Taking the text literally leads to dangerous ideological clashes as the RF shows, with many illogicalities and inconsistencies. It is the underlying thought or theme they portray that is far more important. They are full of extremely vague and broad short descriptions meaning it could refer to a myriad of unique combinations of environments and substances and is not specific. At a stretch, I could for example claim it means clay is formed into a mould into which a black something is poured and eventually creating a life form WITHIN the clay mould, but a complete human in presumably seconds, that is getting a bit ridiculous and far fetched.

But lets give you the benefit of the doubt...

if I was indicating Montmonillonite as the particular clay involved, I would have written it as...

[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that swells with water, of white or yellowish mud fashioned into a mould and filled with water. Then be patient and wait for billions of years for the microbe to emerge.

The original again
[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.

Underlying the literal description one could possibly interpret the metaphorical meaning, as animated life is made from inanimate earthly substances minerals and lots of water and carbon (black?) compounds. This agrees with abiogenesis theory. However, If you look at lipid micelle and RNA formation ON the surface of these clays we find clear evidence that complex life type chemistry and membrane formation with the ability to replicate, can occur from "inert" materials naturally (Abiogenesis) without the intervention or necessity for a creator. see for example

Clay's matchmaking could have sparked life - 23 October 2003 - New Scientist

I find this a far more reasonable and logical position than trying to justify the transmutation of silicon to carbon, the chemistry and physics simply does not match.


Cheers

WE is Majestic sorry if you didnt know that , and your post actually approves the clay theory Thank you ..

 

[Kerr]

I can give you links scientific proofs if you want Thank you ..

Proof that I was tought that in school? Sorry, we didn´t keep videos and loggs over our lectures. Otherwise I suspect it is just to look up any reliable scientific source, since this is basic biology that we learn at school here.

 

[Tiapan]

... , and your post actually approves the clay theory Thank you ..

How? Humans do not consist of 90% silicate.

Cheers

 

[Kerr]

WE is Majestic sorry if you didnt know that , and your post actually approves the clay theory Thank you ..

Then cut of your hand and see what comes out. I am pretty sure it will be blood, but who knows, maybe it is clay...

 

[AFRICAN]

Then cut of your hand and see what comes out. I am pretty sure it will be blood, but who knows, maybe it is clay...

Your the type of person who uses sarcasm to avoid answering with truth , So i wont bother reply t.c

Brother Tiapan , I hope this helps Segment 1 -Clay-Catalyzed RNA Polymerization Activity

 

[Kerr]

Your the type of person who uses sarcasm to avoid answering with truth , So i wont bother reply t.c

My kind of person can use sarcasm to show the truth. Fact, if you cut of someones hand you won´t see clay. If you dig into someone with a knife, you will find flesh, the skeleton, loads and loads of blood... you can even find a quite strong acid inside of us. So let me ask you two more questions. So, if our body looks like this, where do the clay come in? On which level are we made of clay?

 

[AFRICAN]

My kind of person can use sarcasm to show the truth. Fact, if you cut of someones hand you won´t see clay. If you dig into someone with a knife, you will find flesh, the skeleton, loads and loads of blood... you can even find a quite strong acid inside of us. So let me ask you two more questions. So, if our body looks like this, where do the clay come in? On which level are we made of clay?

Try reading the articles i provided t.c ...

 

[Kerr]

Try reading the articles i provided t.c ...

Why not say it right out? Cellular? RNA? DNA? None of those are actually made of clay, cells are made of protines, among other things, DNA and RNA are made of nucleotides. If you go bellow that then you reach levels where clay cannot exist.

 

[Kerr]

And after reading a bit of the link you linked me to, it appears to talk about clay as a catalyst.

 

[England my lionheart]

WE is Majestic sorry if you didnt know that , and your post actually approves the clay theory Thank you ..

This is what the Quran says:

Proclaim!
In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created -
created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.
-- Sura 96:1-2​

It is he who has created man from water
-- Sura 25:54

And God has created every living creature from water.
-- Sura 24:45

We created man from sounding clay,
from mud moulded into shape.
-- Sura 15:26
Amongst his signs is this,
that he created you from dust.
-- Sura 30:20

and here there are no ingredients at all:

God createth what He willeth:
When he hath decreed a plan,
He but saith to it, "Be," and it is!
-- Sura 3:47
​

 

[Autodidact]

AFRICAN: Do you know what a catalyst is? Do you know what RNA is?

 

[AFRICAN]

This is what the Quran says:

Proclaim!
In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created -
created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.
-- Sura 96:1-2​

It is he who has created man from water
-- Sura 25:54

And God has created every living creature from water.
-- Sura 24:45

We created man from sounding clay,
from mud moulded into shape.
-- Sura 15:26
Amongst his signs is this,
that he created you from dust.
-- Sura 30:20

and here there are no ingredients at all:

God createth what He willeth:
When he hath decreed a plan,
He but saith to it, "Be," and it is!
-- Sura 3:47
​

Thank you brother for doing the research ..

The Qur'an speaks in so many verses about the creation of man. In one verse, we are told that man is created from dust. Allah says, (O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clean for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you there is he who dieth (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that, after knowledge, he knoweth naught.) (Al-Hajj 22:5)

This is one stage of the creation in fact. The Qur'an refers to another stage in the verse: (Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!) (Al-Mu'minun 23:12-14)

If we take dust and add water to it, it will be mud. If it is left for some time, it will turn into clay. These are simply the stages of the creation of man. Man thus comes from dust, turned into clay after the addition of water. If we scrutinize this issue, we will find out that man, in his daily life, needs earth and depends on it in so many aspects. It is this earthy soil where we grow the plants upon which we live. Thus, preserving the materials of man depends on the source from which these materials are created.
Scientists have analyzed the human body and found that it is composed of 16 substances including oxygen and manganese. These elements are no more than the elements of the earth’s crust. This experiment was not meant for proving the credibility of the Qur'an; rather, it was solely for scientific research purposes.
In addition, death itself serves as a proof of creation. When we try to demolish a building, we follow the reverse order of building it; we start with the last floor. By the same token, since we have not eye-witnessed the creation of man, then we shall see how death occurs. Actually, we witness several deaths everyday. When man dies, his soul leaves his body, then the decline starts; his body becomes dry (which is similar to the stage of clay) and then decays and turns finally into dust which was his original substance. Life is given to man through the soul that is blown into his body. When the soul departs, man dies and starts his way back to his original form going through the stages of his first creation. Thus, death stands as a living proof for creation.
Muhammad Mutwalli Ash-Sha`rawi

 

[AFRICAN]

I hope i have cleared everything ..

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm still rubbing my hands together, and I'm getting nothing but heat. Maybe I'm not human.

 

[Autodidact]

Thank you brother for doing the research ..

The Qur'an speaks in so many verses about the creation of man. In one verse, we are told that man is created from dust. Allah says, (O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clean for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you there is he who dieth (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that, after knowledge, he knoweth naught.) (Al-Hajj 22:5)

This is one stage of the creation in fact. The Qur'an refers to another stage in the verse: (Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!) (Al-Mu'minun 23:12-14)

If we take dust and add water to it, it will be mud. If it is left for some time, it will turn into clay. These are simply the stages of the creation of man. Man thus comes from dust, turned into clay after the addition of water. If we scrutinize this issue, we will find out that man, in his daily life, needs earth and depends on it in so many aspects. It is this earthy soil where we grow the plants upon which we live. Thus, preserving the materials of man depends on the source from which these materials are created.
Scientists have analyzed the human body and found that it is composed of 16 substances including oxygen and manganese. These elements are no more than the elements of the earth’s crust. This experiment was not meant for proving the credibility of the Qur'an; rather, it was solely for scientific research purposes.
In addition, death itself serves as a proof of creation. When we try to demolish a building, we follow the reverse order of building it; we start with the last floor. By the same token, since we have not eye-witnessed the creation of man, then we shall see how death occurs. Actually, we witness several deaths everyday. When man dies, his soul leaves his body, then the decline starts; his body becomes dry (which is similar to the stage of clay) and then decays and turns finally into dust which was his original substance. Life is given to man through the soul that is blown into his body. When the soul departs, man dies and starts his way back to his original form going through the stages of his first creation. Thus, death stands as a living proof for creation.
Muhammad Mutwalli Ash-Sha`rawi

When you meet someone like AFRICAN, whose approach to life is based on an ancient tribal creation myth, and who prefers a primitive, myth-based approach to life, there is really no point in trying to use either logic or science. He's working from one of the most primitive, foundational, irrational parts of the brain, where logic and facts don't penetrate.

I feel so much compassion for modern Muslims who have chosen to go back to the dark ages, instead of glorifying their God by joining the modern world of scientific progress.

 

[Kerr]

I hope i have cleared everything ..

Not really, you have yet to prove we are made of clay.

 

[England my lionheart]

I'm still rubbing my hands together, and I'm getting nothing but heat. Maybe I'm not human.

I was hoping to take up Pottery with this method but alas no Clay

 

[MSizer]

... He's working from one of the most primitive, foundational, irrational parts of the brain, where logic and facts don't penetrate.

Sadly, the fact is that he is using his neocortex and executive cognitive functions to build is fallacious arguments, so he is completely wasting one of god's (illustratively speaking) gifts, which is his own intellignece.

 

[MSizer]

Oh oh, I found some evidence. I took a self portrait and then scanned it through a fancy modern complicated "tell me what this is made of machine" and this is what it spit out!