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The creator did it.

joelr

Well-Known Member
To your second question, "where did sin come from?"
Whats interesting about this one, is that every time people complain about evil in the world, they are quick to blame God for it. God is incapable of committing evil. Satan is the one you should be going after here not God. Yes God created Satan, but when he did, Satan was the most beautiful and powerful angel God ever created. But something happened to Satan. What was it you ask? He became proud because of his beauty and power. He then made a proclamation:
"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High."
You know the old saying, "Pride comes before the .................."
What is sin? Knowing right and doing wrong, it's pretty simple.
So the next time you want to lay blame on the evil of this world, why don't you focus it in the right direction. The bible says Satan is the father of lies, that he
comes only to steal and kill and destroy. So, it is clear, God is not the author of evil, Satan is.
.


There it is.
After the Persian invasion one of the concepts the Jews took from the Persians was the idea of an "evil" god who was responsible for all the evil things in the world.
Along with the concept of a good afterlife where good followers would wait, world ending fire, hell, etc....
all that stuff was first in Zoroastrianism but not at all in Judaism until the Persians took over Judea.
After 539 BC the Jewish religion began importing Persian concepts. Including ideas of a coming savior deity.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Okay, I see that none of you really understand whats going on here. So, here is the conclusion of all we have talked about. The bottom line will be this, in the end, either the Word of God will be true, or the theory of evolution will be true.

That's funny. People understand the mythology. Non-believers go to eternal fire. As if it's hard to understand and you need to be in some secret society?

Do you worry that Odin will send you to Hela the god of death/Hel because you didn't worship him and his son Thor?
No. Non-Christians do not believe Jesus to be any more real than any other myth. Evidence backs that up completely.
So just because you choose to have faith that a myth is real I don't know why you would be surprised at people who know it's just a myth?

The word of god you're talking about already isn't true.
There are hundreds of promises and failed prophecies in the OT.
God said over and over, in many ways that the Jews would be the master race, everyone would worship their god and they would own the entire Earth.

But that didn't happen. The Persians invaded Judea.
Then the Greeks invaded, then the Romans defeated them.

There are over 200 failed prophecies and mis-quotes from the OT listed here. While some may be stretching it and could be overlooked there is no doubt that many things god said would happen that did not.
So the word of god is not always true.


Bible: Prophecy and Misquotes







Now, you can choose to live in heaven forever in a constant euphoric state, or a state of suffering in massive proportions. Remember this, God never created Hell for humans. Only for the Devil and his angels. However, if you choose not to accept the sacrifice he made through Jesus Christ, you have made a conscious decision to accept the consequences of your decision. And that is separation from God for all of eternity.
I have heard people say, I'll be partying in hell with my friends. Well no you wont. You wont be having any relationship with anyone, you'll be all alone. Why? Because relationships are God given, and you choose to separate yourself from that. You will be all alone, never speaking to anyone, ever! Does this sound good to you? If you say yes, that is the height of, well, I'll let you fill that in. But this will be your reality for ever and ever and ever and ever! How does that sound? Something you are looking forward to? Most rational people would say Hell no! But you?o_O

Hell is a Zoroastrian concept imported from Persia.
Rational people simply don't believe in ancient myths?
Even most Christians no longer believe hell is an actual thing, it's generally considered metaphorical with most modern sects.
Your post is so archaic. Some god who can't ever get anything done without magic blood sacrifice (Isiaac, Passover, Yom Kippor, Temple sacrifice, Jesus sacrifice) is a terrible and gross concept. But then this god sends all non-believers to eternal fire, lame.
Unoriginal as well. Persian afterlife mixed with pagan savior demigods plus bad evil gods and lots of magic blood sacrifice.

Can you imagine how annoying it would be to have someone pleading with you to believe in Romulus because through his death your sins have been forgiven and you can now get into the afterlife. But you have to become a follower!
 

ecco

Veteran Member
They are story tellers.. Everything is exaggerated and embellished.. Joshua, the Exodus, the wealth of Solomon.

They didn't wipe out the Canaanites.. Noah's flood didn't kill all the Nephilim ..

In King David's time Jerusalem was only about 14 acres.

Essentially you are saying the Bible lies, at least sometimes. So, what are your internal standards for what to accept as truth and what to reject as exaggeration and embellishment and outright lies?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Okay, I see that none of you really understand whats going on here. So, here is the conclusion of all we have talked about. The bottom line will be this, in the end, either the Word of God will be true, or the theory of evolution will be true. God will honor your decision if you choose to reject what he has done for you to save you from eternal damnation because of your sinful condition. But you really need to understand and contemplate the immense reality of refusing Gods free gift of eternal life. Forever means never ending, NEVER!
Now, you can choose to live in heaven forever in a constant euphoric state, or a state of suffering in massive proportions. Remember this, God never created Hell for humans. Only for the Devil and his angels. However, if you choose not to accept the sacrifice he made through Jesus Christ, you have made a conscious decision to accept the consequences of your decision. And that is separation from God for all of eternity.
I have heard people say, I'll be partying in hell with my friends. Well no you wont. You wont be having any relationship with anyone, you'll be all alone. Why? Because relationships are God given, and you choose to separate yourself from that. You will be all alone, never speaking to anyone, ever! Does this sound good to you? If you say yes, that is the height of, well, I'll let you fill that in. But this will be your reality for ever and ever and ever and ever! How does that sound? Something you are looking forward to? Most rational people would say Hell no! But you?o_O
Is unabashed proselytizing permitted?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Essentially you are saying the Bible lies, at least sometimes. So, what are your internal standards for what to accept as truth and what to reject as exaggeration and embellishment and outright lies?

I think you have to look at ancient history and archaeology. For instance, there was NO Ur of the Chaldeans until 600 BC .. much too late for Abraham ..
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Forever means never ending, NEVER!
Now, you can choose to live in heaven forever in a constant euphoric state, or a state of suffering in massive proportions.

A couple of things...

Another alternative is that you picked the wrong god to worship. I know you believe that that is an impossibility. But all those other people who have chosen other gods also believed they had picked the right one.

The other alternative is that when you die, you die. Period. End of Story. That's a frightening scenario for many people. It is not a frightening scenario for me or any other atheists I know. We accept it as part of nature. We outgrew fairy tales many years ago.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I have heard people say, I'll be partying in hell with my friends. Well no you wont. You wont be having any relationship with anyone, you'll be all alone.
...
Most rational people would say Hell no! But you?

How rational is it for you to think you know what hell is really like? Can you quote some scripture that unambiguously states that people in hell will be all alone? Most Christians would disagree with your views of heaven and hell.
How rational is it for you to think you have chosen the right god to worship? Over one billion Hindus disagree with you. Over one billion Muslims disagree with you.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
To your first question, if he decided not to tell us, we wouldn't know of his existence. The question is, did he? Answer, yes he did! But you know this. You learn and trust information from books written by men don't you? We learn and trust from the Word of God also written by men that were inspired by Gods Holy Spirit. And in that book, the bible, it says he is perfect. Here are a few examples;
Matthew 5:48 ESV / 33 helpful votes
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Psalm 18:30 ESV / 24 helpful votes
This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Romans 12:2 ESV / 18 helpful votes
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
To your second question, "where did sin come from?"
Whats interesting about this one, is that every time people complain about evil in the world, they are quick to blame God for it. God is incapable of committing evil. Satan is the one you should be going after here not God. Yes God created Satan, but when he did, Satan was the most beautiful and powerful angel God ever created. But something happened to Satan. What was it you ask? He became proud because of his beauty and power. He then made a proclamation:
"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High."
You know the old saying, "Pride comes before the .................."
What is sin? Knowing right and doing wrong, it's pretty simple.
So the next time you want to lay blame on the evil of this world, why don't you focus it in the right direction. The bible says Satan is the father of lies, that he
comes only to steal and kill and destroy. So, it is clear, God is not the author of evil, Satan is.

First of all, science only learns about what is already in existence. I love science. But when you extrapolate outside of the boundaries of science, now you are stepping into fantasy land and you have science behind. This is exactly what molecules to man evolution does and the one behind it is none other than Satan the father of lies himself. Why? Satan does not want anyone to come to the truth of salvation through Jesus Christ. Satan knows where he is going to end up, and he has, since the beginning of the world, starting with Eve, putting doubt in the minds of people, the same Genesis 3 lie he used then, he uses now. You and others here are a perfect example by your statements of Satan's power over you, using the same tactic today that he has been using throughout time, putting doubt in the minds of people of the truth of Gods Word.Why? Because it works very well. What is the Genesis 3 lie? "Did God really say?" Satan lied and deceived Eve about why God commanded them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why, Because God said in the day you eat of it you will surely die! Have you ever warned you kids about doing something that would be dangerous? You see the danger but they don't. So because you love them and you don't want to see them get hurt or die, you warn them in the strongest way. But their say, don't listen to your parents, com'on it'll be fun! These kids are putting doubt in your child's mind as to the danger you warned them about. In the same way, Satan says, No, evolution is how everything came about in our world. Don't listen to those Christians! The further Satan can drive you away from God and his truth, the better. And from what I can see here, again, like throughout millennia, its working quite well.

"Anything at all will do"
What Miracles Did Jesus Perform?
I never said science was wrong. It is constantly changing as our technology allows us to discover more and more, yes, but don't infer whats not there. If you do, you are infecting the results and thereby disgracing its truthful findings.


"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things", 1 Cor. 13:11. This about sums up your entire post. I wonder if you would still believe in a God, if there was not a promise of everlasting bliss? The Bible is a man-made, man-compiled, man-edited, man-contracted, and man-written book of fantasies, myths and made-up stories(from earlier stories). It is a book that was written to excite the minds of children, and control the minds of adults living during the Bronze and Iron Ages. Using scriptures from the Bible to validate your beliefs, is like using verses from the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition to validate business transactions. I suppose if it makes you feel good, what is the harm? The problem is that you don't just keep it to yourself. You feel the need to want others to also believe in your madness. This would be okay, except that you choose to infect the most vulnerable members of our society. Our children. You also want to spread this madness into our schools, government, and our private lives. The future of our society has always depended on our youth. Religious belief is an unnecessary distractive preoccupation. It produces nothing practical, has no practical purpose, and has no intrinsic worth. The only thing that it does, is promise things that you need to die to receive. The perfect con job.

You have no idea what God is capable or incapable of. You have no idea what is in the mind of a God. You have no idea if God is a trickster, benevolent, sadistic, a megalomaniac, evil, or even exist at all. Unless you are a God yourself, you need to demonstrate that the Bible is truly the words of a God. You can't use one myth to validate another. There is no evil, no good, no heaven and hell, no sin, no Adam and Eve, no flood, no talking snake, no tree of knowledge, no tree of immortality, no God(s), and certainly no reason to serve and obey something that only exists in your mind. There is only us. Humans, with human conditions. Nothing more and nothing less. Just because you throw enough crap on the wall, it doesn't mean that what sticks becomes truth. I don't let any book define me, and I never use a possibility to validate a certainty. Also,

why would a God care about us, or our afterlife?
where would all those saved, and failed souls go?
why would a God create us in the first place?
why is the God of the Bible the architect of mass murder, slavery, murder, pestilence, cruelty, famine, and many other unimaginable immoral acts?
what do we have that has any value to a God?

If you simply want to prostrate yourself and serve a man-made myth, that is your right. But don't expect others to believe in talking snakes, miracles, Ghosts, the supernatural, God(s) and demigods, and in fulfilled prophecies, without providing extraordinary evidence. I'm still waiting on any non-biblical examples of anything spiritual, or supernatural. Just one example would do. Even a fallacy-free argument would do. So, what evidence can you bring to the table? I didn't think so.

Only YOUR explanation of sin is simple. Sin can also exist in the mind. Is willful ignorance by your definition a sin? Science does not know what exists outside of itself. It makes predictions based only on what the evidence suggests. Maybe you can posit a claim made by science about anything outside of science? I didn't think so. Science leaves "fantasyland" for you. So, not only do we have "God did it all", but we now have "Satan did it all", as well. Wow, this madness has many levels. Also, I would never threaten my children with killing them, no matter what they did wrong. Surely, eating from the tree of knowledge did not deserve the threat of death. Although God lied, and didn't kill them anyway. Why wouldn't an all-knowing benevolent God not want his creation to know right from wrong, and good from evil? It just makes no sense from any perspective. But for you, logic is irrelevant. If its good "God did it", and if its bad or evil the "Devil did it". Simple.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
ecco said:
You stuck the name H. Porter at the end of your post. But it is not clear how much of your post is your own words and how much is Porter's.
Also, who is Porter? What are his/her qualifications?
Also, you did not show where you copied/pasted the quote from. This is important so that we can verify its authenticity.


Oh you 'll verify it alright, just give it a little more time.


OK.

Thanks for admitting that you just write/copy/paste/plagiarize whatever you want to with nothing to support your claims. I suppose you think Jesus would be proud of you.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
ecco said:
Essentially you are saying the Bible lies, at least sometimes. So, what are your internal standards for what to accept as truth and what to reject as exaggeration and embellishment and outright lies?


I think you have to look at ancient history and archaeology. For instance, there was NO Ur of the Chaldeans until 600 BC .. much too late for Abraham ..

If I understand, you compare the Bible to actual history and decide which is truth and which is fiction.

Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colors from our sight
Red is gray and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion​




I don't imagine the Bible wins out very often. So, why believe anything in the Bible at all?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
ecco said:
Essentially you are saying the Bible lies, at least sometimes. So, what are your internal standards for what to accept as truth and what to reject as exaggeration and embellishment and outright lies?




If I understand, you compare the Bible to actual history and decide which is truth and which is fiction.

Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colors from our sight
Red is gray and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion​




I don't imagine the Bible wins out very often. So, why believe anything in the Bible at all?

I think there is a message in the epic stories.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Surely, eating from the tree of knowledge did not deserve the threat of death. Although God lied, and didn't kill them anyway. Why wouldn't an all-knowing benevolent God not want his creation to know right from wrong, and good from evil? It just makes no sense from any perspective. But for you, logic is irrelevant. If its good "God did it", and if its bad or evil the "Devil did it". Simple.


I often try to contemplate the origins of the stories. I picture ancient man, 10,000 - 20,000 years ago sitting around the campfire and relating stories. Some of these stories concern health, the seasons and when to plant and harvest, respect for others, acceptable and unacceptable behavior, origins, where to and how to hunt. At least in terms of what man knew back then.

Some people eating shellfish at some times got violently ill and even died. Without the means to truly examine the causes, they just forbade eating shellfish. Hey, it's not just your daddy saying "Don't eat oysters", and it's not just me, the tribal elder saying it, it's a commandment from GOD!

If some youngster kept pressing the issue and asking questions, an oft used response would have been: If God wanted us to know everything, He would tell us everything and if you don't stop asking questions, God Himself will punish you.

Millennia later, polished and expanded - Don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil else ye shall die.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
One can find more realistic messages in the notes of history without having to resort to a mythman.

They were story tellers and they must have done it well because the Jews are still here but nobody is talking about Canaanites or Ugarits or Chaldeans.
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
How do you know the books "were inspired by Gods Holy Spirit"?
There is no evidence to support that stance. None. You believe because you want to believe. You want to believe because that's how you were indoctrinated.
2Peter 1:20-21 "…20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
Thats how we know!
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
There is no evidence that there ever were any Amalekites.
However,
1 Kings 9:20
“All the people who were left of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, who were not of the people of Israel - their descendants … - these Solomon made a forced levy of slaves, and so they are to this day.”
Funny how you use scripture to try and falsify the historical facts facts of scripture.:rolleyes:
Amalek; Amalekite - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
They are story tellers.. Everything is exaggerated and embellished.. Joshua, the Exodus, the wealth of Solomon.
They didn't wipe out the Canaanites.. Noah's flood didn't kill all the Nephilim ..
In King David's time Jerusalem was only about 14 acres.
Whatever!:rolleyes:
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
You stuck the name H. Porter at the end of your post. But it is not clear how much of your post is your own words and how much is Porter's.

Also, who is Porter? What are his/her qualifications?

Also, you did not show where you copied/pasted the quote from. This is important so that we can verify its authenticity.
Click on #1337
 
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