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The creator did it.

Audie

Veteran Member

Who needs "evidence" for Christianity?

It is obvious to anyone that it exists.

And a lot of the history and geography in the
"bible" is more or less correct, so, no need
to prove that there is "Egypt" nor evidence
that there is a Dead Sea.

What is 100% absent, zero, nothing, is any
physical trace whatsoever of any of the
supposedly supernatural events. Exodus.
Babel. Sodom and Gomorrah.
And the grand daddy of them all, maybe the
biggest whopper in earth "history"- Noahs Ark.

As long as the bible is just some folk wisdom,
begets, poems and stuff, then there is no need
to make much of a fuss, there are a lot of old
records.

As long as everything having to do with "god"
is just evidence free assertions, those not in the
cult will just read it as "magic realism" tho not,
you know, especially well written or entertaining.

And withal the book is really not much worth reading.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Early Christian Writings is NOT a fundamentalist website.

They are if they don't agree with scholarship. The historicity field is nicely summarized here at 16:30

those early dates are not supported by historians so yes, that would be fundamentalism.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member


The expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls is Elaine Pagels and from them we also know that Christianity was far more diverse in the first century up to 1/2 being "Gnostic"

"
What we now realize — and more clearly than ever because of the newly discovered Gospels — is that, instead of one tradition about Jesus, there were in the early Christian movement ranges of traditions about Jesus, several traditions, and they were associated with different disciples. So you would have the gospel according to Matthew, who taught some of the teachings of Jesus, and the gospel according to John, which taught others, [and] the gospel according to Thomas.

When we look at Thomas and John together, we see that they have a lot in common. They used the same kind of language. But I can now see that John was written to say, “Well, yes, Thomas almost gets it right but misses the main point,” which for John is that you must believe in Jesus in order to be saved and that he alone offers the only access.

Q: What is the historical background on this?

A: Everybody who wants to study the beginning of Christianity usually has the same motivation that I had. It was totally typical: if we go back to the beginning, we’ll find what really happened, the original, the perfect, golden nugget. We’ll find the words of Jesus.

What we actually find when we go back there is that the earliest evidence is very diverse. That’s not the story we were told as Christians, because the Christian church chose to simplify it and give us a single version of the story and cut out, therefore, the kind of diversity that we can now see."

October 10, 2003 ~ Elaine Pagels Extended Interview | October 10, 2003 | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly | PBS
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You have refuted nothing I posted, all you did was go to non-primary sources on the internet...lame refuting maybe. Take a lesson from sooda, she understands primary sources from lame internet resources.
Like he said, it's been refuted and you haven't dealt with any of the actual scholarship except to re-post the same text and call other peoples sources from the biblical historicity field "made up".
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't know why so many Christians think that the Dead Sea Scrolls are all that impressive. They are not nearly as old as they think they are. The oldest is still younger than 200 BCE and the youngest were made in roughly 100 CE:

Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not support an idea that the Bible is old at all. They are all far younger than even the Babylonian exile.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
One of the most well known ones out there that opposes the reliability of the bible is Bart Ehrman, below you will see him debating Daniel Wallace


Even the fundamentalist admits the gospels are not entirely reliable,
At 1:36:30 Daniel Wallace admits it's unknown if John 21 was a late addition or not.

He also redacted some of his evidence


"First-Century Mark Fragment Update BY DANIEL B. WALLACE. 23 MAY 2018 Apology

In my debate with Bart, I mentioned that I had it on good authority that this was definitely a first-century fragment of Mark. A representative for who I understood was the owner of FCM urged me to make the announcement at the debate, which they realized would make this go viral. However, the information I received and was assured to have been vetted was incorrect. It was my fault for being naïve enough to trust that the data I got was unquestionable, as it was presented to me. So, I must first apologize to Bart Ehrman, and to everyone else, for giving misleading information about this discovery. While I am sorry for publicly announcing inaccurate facts, at no time in the public statements (either in the debate or on my blogsite) did I knowingly do this. But I should have been more careful about trusting any sources without my personal verification, a lesson I have since learned."
 

sooda

Veteran Member
They are if they don't agree with scholarship. The historicity field is nicely summarized here at 16:30

those early dates are not supported by historians so yes, that would be fundamentalism.

One of the first people to dispute the traditional dating of Daniel was Porphyry, a pagan philosopher whose arguments have been preseved by Jerome. He argues that some of the prophecies in Daniel are so congruent to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the book must have been written during his time (175-164 BC).

Arguments for early/late date of authorship of Daniel
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I don't know why so many Christians think that the Dead Sea Scrolls are all that impressive. They are not nearly as old as they think they are. The oldest is still younger than 200 BCE and the youngest were made in roughly 100 CE:

Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not support an idea that the Bible is old at all. They are all far younger than even the Babylonian exile.


The author of the Book of Daniel seems to place the rule of Cyrus after that of Darius, again an inexplicable error for an author contemporary with these events. Furthermore he makes no mention of the fact that it was the Edict of Cyrus of 538 BCE. which finally allowed the Hebrews to return to Israel. This is a crucial event in the history of the religion of Israel and would surely warrant a mention from any author of that period.

Third it does not seem to be consistent with the facts that the Babylonians are presented as actively persecuting the Jews and attempting to destroy their religion. In fact the Jews lived quite peacefully and had plenty of opportunity to practice their faith in exile in Babylon. The synagogue and the canonization of the Torah have their origins in Babylonian Judaism, as, of course, does the Babylonian Talmud.

continued

Rel 101: Understanding the Bible: Daniel
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
RAPTURE ERA, I don't think any of the 5 pedagogical learning approaches will have any effect on a completely closed mind. A mind that seems incapable of understanding the importance of lateral thinking, and inductive and deductive reasoning. A mind that seems incapable of self-scrutiny, logical consistency, and the ability to critically interpret and comprehend facts and data. A mind that can only understand science if it is preference first with, "God did it all". A mind that believes that the physical and metaphysical are both equally valid and real. Science has always been the cure for ignorance, but there is no cure for the willful chronic ignorance.
How are you any different? Everything you mention here is exactly who you are, except you can substitute "God did it" with "Evolution did it." You are a hypocrite!:D
will try to answer some of the issues raised in both your posts(#993 & #994). Clearly you have made 3 things abundantly clear to me. One, by labeling an entity as the creator of life and the Universe, you are being intellectually lazy and logically inconsistent. Unless YOU are a God yourself, how can you possibly KNOW anything about the true nature of a God? You don't and you can't. Please demonstrate that God is good or bad, is the true God, or is endowed with all the Omni's given to Him by man? Please demonstrate how a foreign 2000 year old book, written by man, edited by man, contracted by man, interpreted by man, and compiled by man, can objectively demonstrate the existence of God(s)?


Let alone spiritually valid. Please demonstrate the special divine/spiritual knowledge that is afforded to you, but not me? Name just one supernatural, metaphysical or paranormal event that has happened at anytime throughout human history, that would justify even a belief that these events are possible? Let alone as a justification for anyone to commit to a life of pious and sincere servitude. I see no rational bases for any religious beliefs, other than to fill some abstract void inherent in the human condition.
Why do I have to be a God? "Unless YOU are a God yourself, how can you possibly KNOW anything about the true nature of a God? You don't and you can't. Please demonstrate that God is good or bad, is the true God, or is endowed with all the Omni's given to Him by man? Please demonstrate how a foreign 2000 year old book, written by man, edited by man, contracted by man, interpreted by man, and compiled by man, can objectively demonstrate the existence of God(s)?"
This statement is the height of illiteracy! God has given us the Bible so that we can know who he is and his nature. Your inability to comprehend this is a mind that seems incapable of self-scrutiny yourself, logical consistency, and the ability to critically interpret and comprehend facts and data. True science has establish the fact that information in cells to advance life into various species is impossible by natural means and yet you and others hold on to these ridiculously false evolutionary fairy-tails says a lot about you as well!
Surely, you don't expect any book written millennia ago, to be historically, scientifically, and geographically accurate?
Absolutely do! The history of these events have been proven! Where have you been! Even if I showed you the truth of these events you would turn your nose up and just say no its not true, talk about intellectually lazy!:rolleyes:
I don't have to demonstrate anything to you. It is so obviously in your face and you act like it's not thereo_O Because no matter what I give you as an answer, you will deny it and come up with some other ludicrous statements. So you see, your mind is closed off as well and that's the truth! The shame is, your mind is closed off to a lie! I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you care nothing of the truth or evidence. It's a fraud, it's not true, that atheists and or atheist scientists go where the evidence lies.You go where the evidence serves your atheism! Your blindness to the joke of evolution will drag you down to the point of no return!:eek: See how that works out for you!:(


 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How are you any different? Everything you mention here is exactly who you are, except you can substitute "God did it" with "Evolution did it." You are a hypocrite!:D
This is wrong. We have very reliable evidence for the theory of evolution. There are mountains of scientific evidence for the theory. You have no such evidence. All you have is a book of myths.

Why do I have to be a God? "Unless YOU are a God yourself, how can you possibly KNOW anything about the true nature of a God? You don't and you can't. Please demonstrate that God is good or bad, is the true God, or is endowed with all the Omni's given to Him by man? Please demonstrate how a foreign 2000 year old book, written by man, edited by man, contracted by man, interpreted by man, and compiled by man, can objectively demonstrate the existence of God(s)?"
This statement is the height of illiteracy! God has given us the Bible so that we can know who he is and his nature. Your inability to comprehend this is a mind that seems incapable of self-scrutiny yourself, logical consistency, and the ability to critically interpret and comprehend facts and data. True science has establish the fact that information in cells to advance life into various species is impossible by natural means and yet you and others hold on to these ridiculously false evolutionary fairy-tails says a lot about you as well!

He was probably pointing out that you have no clue as to the nature of god. And your incorrect use of the phrase "height of illiteracy" makes your own literacy questionable . The Bible is just a book written by men, unless you can prove otherwise.

Absolutely do! The history of these events have been proven! Where have you been! Even if I showed you the truth of these events you would turn your nose up and just say no its not true, talk about intellectually lazy!:rolleyes:
I don't have to demonstrate anything to you. It is so obviously in your face and you act like it's not thereo_O Because no matter what I give you as an answer, you will deny it and come up with some other ludicrous statements. So you see, your mind is closed off as well and that's the truth! The shame is, your mind is closed off to a lie! I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you care nothing of the truth or evidence. It's a fraud, it's not true, that atheists and or atheist scientists go where the evidence lies.You go where the evidence serves your atheism! Your blindness to the joke of evolution will drag you down to the point of no return!:eek: See how that works out for you!:(



Now please. That nonsense is not fooling anyone. Anyone that has seriously studied the Bible knows that much of It is myth. We all know that you of all people cannot support this claim of yours.

You really should be trying to learn why and how we know that you are wrong.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
This is wrong. We have very reliable evidence for the theory of evolution. There are mountains of scientific evidence for the theory. You have no such evidence. All you have is a book of myths.



He was probably pointing out that you have no clue as to the nature of god. And your incorrect use of the phrase "height of illiteracy" makes your own literacy questionable . The Bible is just a book written by men, unless you can prove otherwise.



Now please. That nonsense is not fooling anyone. Anyone that has seriously studied the Bible knows that much of It is myth. We all know that you of all people cannot support this claim of yours.

You really should be trying to learn why and how we know that you are wrong.

Bad theology sure plays havoc with people's ability to learn.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
How are you any different? Everything you mention here is exactly who you are, except you can substitute "God did it" with "Evolution did it." You are a hypocrite!:D

Why do I have to be a God? "Unless YOU are a God yourself, how can you possibly KNOW anything about the true nature of a God? You don't and you can't. Please demonstrate that God is good or bad, is the true God, or is endowed with all the Omni's given to Him by man? Please demonstrate how a foreign 2000 year old book, written by man, edited by man, contracted by man, interpreted by man, and compiled by man, can objectively demonstrate the existence of God(s)?"
This statement is the height of illiteracy! God has given us the Bible so that we can know who he is and his nature. Your inability to comprehend this is a mind that seems incapable of self-scrutiny yourself, logical consistency, and the ability to critically interpret and comprehend facts and data. True science has establish the fact that information in cells to advance life into various species is impossible by natural means and yet you and others hold on to these ridiculously false evolutionary fairy-tails says a lot about you as well!

Absolutely do! The history of these events have been proven! Where have you been! Even if I showed you the truth of these events you would turn your nose up and just say no its not true, talk about intellectually lazy!:rolleyes:
I don't have to demonstrate anything to you. It is so obviously in your face and you act like it's not thereo_O Because no matter what I give you as an answer, you will deny it and come up with some other ludicrous statements. So you see, your mind is closed off as well and that's the truth! The shame is, your mind is closed off to a lie! I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you care nothing of the truth or evidence. It's a fraud, it's not true, that atheists and or atheist scientists go where the evidence lies.You go where the evidence serves your atheism! Your blindness to the joke of evolution will drag you down to the point of no return!:eek: See how that works out for you!:(




Again spare me the false bravado, and a very poor argument from incredulity. Since you don't understand the value and reliability of evidence, and how it pertains to my position(not who I am), maybe trying to hold your breath indefinitely, or trying to walk up a wall, might illustrate my point more clearly. It is the same science you trust and trip over everyday for your survival. Yet, when aspects of this science threatens your religious worldview, you simply dismiss it as inconsistent and unreliable. You then start calling those that accept the explanations of science as being hypocrites, unbelievers, and close-minded. Yet, you expect someone that does not believe in a God, to demonstrate the nature of God? You are the one making knowledge claim about God. You are the one making knowledge claims about the divinity of the Bible. Since only a God would be able to comprehend the nature and attributes of another God(which by definition is impossible), how are you able to absorb even a fraction of the omni's, only a God could possess? How are you able to cope with a God's immenseness and intelligence? If you somehow can, what special abilities do you have that I don't have? How does He communicate with you? What does He look like? How do you know it is not just a delusion? And, what objective evidence can cite to support your assertions? Is your only explanation, "the Bible tells me so". I see not much has changed since I was a child.

So, in place of "Evolution did it", we can easily substitute verifiable and falsifiable evidence. Can you cite any scientist or evidence that supports that prokaryotes to eukaryotes to advance life, to the different species, is impossible by natural means? Maybe you can also present the evidence that describes an example of unnatural means? Maybe you can point to any verifiable example of ANY EVENT, that you could call supernatural, alien, metaphysical, paranormal, unnatural, a miracle, a virgin birth, talking animals, a resurrection, or any violation of the laws of physics? So go back to Google U, and search for these answers. If not, just admit that this is your personal belief and move on. My beliefs are usually based on facts, but not always. In this way I can explain why I believe in something, without having to tear down the beliefs of others. An Atheist's disbelief is not about his/her refusal to be socially correct. It is only about the total lack(zero) of evidence supporting the belief. The major difference between you and me, is if there was just one piece of evidence supporting God's existence or anything supernatural, I would no longer be an Atheist. But in your case, even if God himself told you that you are wrong and silly, you would still be a Theist, and simply create a new God that will conform to your beliefs.

My level of literacy has nothing to do with my level of gullibility. As I've stated before, it is easier to accept, "God did it all", than to spend the years necessary to acquire the logical skills to avoid exposing this level of ignorance. All you are relegated to, is peddling veil religious threats to unbelievers, rote parroting of religious soundbites, creating a false impression of having scientific knowledge by siding with the opinions of real scientists, and the usual biblical quote-mining that usually signals that the arguments is lost. Your level of intellectual laziness can be summed up as, "Since you can't prove me absolutely wrong, then I must be absolutely right". That's it.

It would be pointless to ask you to explain why organisms that are morphologically similar, are also genetically similar? Or, why a specific gene in one species will code for the same protein in another species? Maybe you can point to any unnatural method that allows us to interface with our environment and accommodate for any changes? Do you disagree that the Bible was NOT compiled, edited, contracted, or interpreted by man? If you understand why generations of offspring from identical twins, will not look like their original parents, then why can't you accept that Evolution can produce a diversity of life over millions of years? The Theory is almost as simple as "God did it all".
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
How are you any different? Everything you mention here is exactly who you are, except you can substitute "God did it" with "Evolution did it." You are a hypocrite!:D

Why do I have to be a God? "Unless YOU are a God yourself, how can you possibly KNOW anything about the true nature of a God? You don't and you can't. Please demonstrate that God is good or bad, is the true God, or is endowed with all the Omni's given to Him by man? Please demonstrate how a foreign 2000 year old book, written by man, edited by man, contracted by man, interpreted by man, and compiled by man, can objectively demonstrate the existence of God(s)?"
This statement is the height of illiteracy! God has given us the Bible so that we can know who he is and his nature. Your inability to comprehend this is a mind that seems incapable of self-scrutiny yourself, logical consistency, and the ability to critically interpret and comprehend facts and data. True science has establish the fact that information in cells to advance life into various species is impossible by natural means and yet you and others hold on to these ridiculously false evolutionary fairy-tails says a lot about you as well!

Absolutely do! The history of these events have been proven! Where have you been! Even if I showed you the truth of these events you would turn your nose up and just say no its not true, talk about intellectually lazy!:rolleyes:
I don't have to demonstrate anything to you. It is so obviously in your face and you act like it's not thereo_O Because no matter what I give you as an answer, you will deny it and come up with some other ludicrous statements. So you see, your mind is closed off as well and that's the truth! The shame is, your mind is closed off to a lie! I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you care nothing of the truth or evidence. It's a fraud, it's not true, that atheists and or atheist scientists go where the evidence lies.You go where the evidence serves your atheism! Your blindness to the joke of evolution will drag you down to the point of no return!:eek: See how that works out for you!:(


No, that has not been established. You need to stop repeating it, as it is a false claim. You wouldn't want to tell a fib, would you?
 
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Rapture Era

Active Member
Who needs "evidence" for Christianity?

It is obvious to anyone that it exists.

And a lot of the history and geography in the
"bible" is more or less correct, so, no need
to prove that there is "Egypt" nor evidence
that there is a Dead Sea.

What is 100% absent, zero, nothing, is any
physical trace whatsoever of any of the
supposedly supernatural events. Exodus.
Babel. Sodom and Gomorrah.
And the grand daddy of them all, maybe the
biggest whopper in earth "history"- Noahs Ark.

As long as the bible is just some folk wisdom,
begets, poems and stuff, then there is no need
to make much of a fuss, there are a lot of old
records.

As long as everything having to do with "god"
is just evidence free assertions, those not in the
cult will just read it as "magic realism" tho not,
you know, especially well written or entertaining.

And withal the book is really not much worth reading.

"And the grand daddy of them all, maybe the
biggest whopper in earth "history"- Noahs Ark."

Well, here it is! :D It's been discovered!:eek:
Tell me, what is this huge wooden structure doing at over 11,000 feet in the Ararat Mountains covered in ice? Here is your granddaddy whopper! No matter how you try to debunk this, the FACT is, this massive wooden vessel with two levels they have see so far is there! How did it get there? Here is the ultimate truth and massive evidence of Noah's Ark!
What do you say now?:oops:
Genesis 8:3-5
…3The waters receded steadily from the earth, and after 150 days the waters had gone down. 4On the seventeenth day of the seventh month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5And the waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month, the tops of the mountains became visible.…
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
"And the grand daddy of them all, maybe the
biggest whopper in earth "history"- Noahs Ark."

Well, here it is! :D It's been discovered!:eek:
Tell me, what is this huge wooden structure doing at over 11,000 feet in the Ararat Mountains covered in ice? Here is your granddaddy whopper! No matter how you try to debunk this, the FACT is, this massive wooden vessel with two levels they have see so far is there! How did it get there? Here is the ultimate truth and massive evidence of Noah's Ark!
What do you say now?:oops:

I would say you are awfully easy to hoax.
 
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