The Death Penalty

[England my lionheart]

In general I find the ambiguity of intent in sentencing difficult to navigate, especially in violent crime, no one comes to an act of violence with a clear mind unless they are sociopaths, and remember a crime of passion can become premeditated murder in the second it takes to stick the knife in again.

The death penalty isn't a deterrent or justice it is a failed act of terrorism.

All circumstances should be considered but a pre meditated murder where someone kidnaps a Child then rapes and strangles that Child to death deserves to die,this person is no longer any use to him/herself or society and eats up resources,it isn't a failed act of terrorism or revenge its Justice.
However we can always go down the lenient route which is the current one:

SHORT LIST OF MURDERERS RELEASED TO MURDER AGAIN (more if required sadly )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John McRae -- Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending on 2 other counts in Florida.
---------------------------------------
John Miller -- California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder, 1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
---------------------------------------
Michael Lawrence -- Florida. Killed robbery victim. Life term, 1976. Paroled 1985. Killed robbery victim. Condemned 1990.
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Donald Dillbeck -- Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after escape. Condemned 1991.
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Edward Kennedy -- Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after prison break. Executed 1992.
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Dawud Mu'Min -- Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997.
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Viva Nash -- Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah, 1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in Arizona, 1983.
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Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.
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Norman Parker -- Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder, 1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in 1979.
---------------------------------------
Winford Stokes -- Missouri. Ruled insane on two counts of murder 1969. Escaped from asylum, 1978. Murdered again. Executed for this murder, 1990.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I do understand your reticence to support capital punishment based on such uncertainty (if you'll review the thread, I actually share it), but I'd appreciate a hypothetical answer at least.

I've said before that, hypothetically, I have no moral problem with executing certain criminals, but it's an essentially meaningless view without first having a legal system which is 100% accurate - which is a virtual impossibility.

 

[Storm]

I've said before that, hypothetically, I have no moral problem with executing certain criminals, but it's an essentially meaningless view without first having a legal system which is 100% accurate - which is a virtual impossibility.

Oh, ok. I hadn't seen that, sorry.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Oh, ok. I hadn't seen that, sorry.

Might not have been in this particular thread.

 

[Aquitaine]

All circumstances should be considered but a pre meditated murder where someone kidnaps a Child then rapes and strangles that Child to death deserves to die,this person is no longer any use to him/herself or society and eats up resources,it isn't a failed act of terrorism or revenge its Justice.

However we can always go down the lenient route which is the current one:

SHORT LIST OF MURDERERS RELEASED TO MURDER AGAIN (more if required sadly )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John McRae -- Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending on 2 other counts in Florida.
---------------------------------------
John Miller -- California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder, 1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
---------------------------------------
Michael Lawrence -- Florida. Killed robbery victim. Life term, 1976. Paroled 1985. Killed robbery victim. Condemned 1990.
---------------------------------------
Donald Dillbeck -- Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after escape. Condemned 1991.
---------------------------------------
Edward Kennedy -- Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after prison break. Executed 1992.
---------------------------------------
Dawud Mu'Min -- Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997.
---------------------------------------
Viva Nash -- Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah, 1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in Arizona, 1983.
---------------------------------------
Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.
---------------------------------------
Norman Parker -- Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder, 1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in 1979.
---------------------------------------
Winford Stokes -- Missouri. Ruled insane on two counts of murder 1969. Escaped from asylum, 1978. Murdered again. Executed for this murder, 1990.

Yeah, after all, imprisoning those convicted murders and rapists would breach thier Human Rights, we can't possibly do that - let's give them hugs instead.

 

[Storm]

Might not have been in this particular thread.

I only started following it recently, too. Anyway, thanks for your answer.

 

[monta]

All circumstances should be considered but a pre meditated murder where someone kidnaps a Child then rapes and strangles that Child to death deserves to die,this person is no longer any use to him/herself or society and eats up resources,it isn't a failed act of terrorism or revenge its Justice.
However we can always go down the lenient route which is the current one:

SHORT LIST OF MURDERERS RELEASED TO MURDER AGAIN (more if required sadly )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John McRae -- Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending on 2 other counts in Florida.
---------------------------------------
John Miller -- California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder, 1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
---------------------------------------
Michael Lawrence -- Florida. Killed robbery victim. Life term, 1976. Paroled 1985. Killed robbery victim. Condemned 1990.
---------------------------------------
Donald Dillbeck -- Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after escape. Condemned 1991.
---------------------------------------
Edward Kennedy -- Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after prison break. Executed 1992.
---------------------------------------
Dawud Mu'Min -- Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997.
---------------------------------------
Viva Nash -- Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah, 1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in Arizona, 1983.
---------------------------------------
Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.
---------------------------------------
Norman Parker -- Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder, 1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in 1979.
---------------------------------------
Winford Stokes -- Missouri. Ruled insane on two counts of murder 1969. Escaped from asylum, 1978. Murdered again. Executed for this murder, 1990.

Are we reduced to posting data from pro death penalty and anti death penalty websites then ?

Fine

NCADP - The National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty
Innocent People are on Death Row and May Have Been Executed

• At least 135 people have been exonerated from death row since 1973, including 23 from Florida alone. (Death Penalty Information Center)

• In recent years, three major U.S. newspapers – the Chicago Tribune, the Houston Chronicle and the St. Louis Post-Dispatch – reported that four executed inmates in all probability were innocent. They are Ruben Cantu of Texas, Carlos De Luna of Texas, Larry Griffin of Missouri, and Cameron Todd Willingham of Texas.

• A study identified 23 instances in the last century in which a person with an extraordinarily strong case of innocence had been executed by the government. (H. Bedeau & M. Radelet, “Miscarriages of Justice in Potentially Capital Cases” Stanford Law Review, 1987)

 

[Nepenthe]

The same could be said for life sentences, the innocent could die in his cell long before they realise he's innocent.

But they'd be alive. That's the important distinction.

Yeah, after all, imprisoning those convicted murders and rapists would breach thier Human Rights, we can't possibly do that - let's give them hugs instead.

Who argued that anywhere!?!?!

 

[Storm]

Who argued that anywhere!?!?!

Well, to be fair, monta implied disapproval of incarceration. Still trying to wrap my head around that one.

 

[Nepenthe]

Are we reduced to posting data from pro death penalty and anti death penalty websites then ?

Fine

Not that you need bolstering for your argument Monta, but England's list also avoids the fact that life in prison would've prevented most of these crimes.

ETA: "MOST"

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The same could be said for life sentences, the innocent could die in his cell long before they realise he's innocent.

I don't understand how this negates the argument though.

I share your veiw that the most important issue is convicting the right person, but that's the same with everything - making sure the post gets delivered to the right person, or the missile hits the right target etc.

Death has a finality your average piece of mail lacks.

What we need is further improvements to the courts to make sure we're as accurate as possible.

We need that regardless.

But as I said, on a principle level, if he was guilty, then why would it be immoral to execute him?

On a principle level, if a system can never be 100% sure that someone is guilty, would it be moral to execute him?

 

[Aquitaine]

But they'd be alive. That's the important distinction.

What, after they died in their cells? Who knows how long it could take for someone to make a breakthrough and realise the convicted was infact innocent? It could take 100 years.

Who argued that anywhere!?!?!

No one here did, it's a parody of the attitudes of the British Justice System nowadays.

 

[monta]

Well, to be fair, monta implied disapproval of incarceration. Still trying to wrap my head around that one.

I dissapprove of incarceration for punitive purposes, where ever possible a person should be rehabilitated. I never said anything about not locking people up, except in basements.

If you treat someone like an animal, they will act accordingly and you become a person who treats people like animals. I don't see how this is helpful to society.

 

[MSizer]

By that analogy, the death penalty absolutely is a deterrent, because that murderer is most assuredly deterred from murdering.

As far as other people are concerned, your analogy is meaningless.

A person who commits murder is far less likely to be executed than a person who drinks drano is likely to be fatally poisoned.


Therefore, more people are likely to think "bad things will happen to me if I drink drano".

Less people are likely to think "If I stab my mother in law 37 times in the head and neck, I'll be put to death"

Why?

Because people who drink drano are surely going to suffer severely, if they don't die.

People who commit murder have a better chance at getting away with it than being put to death for it.

I don't agree with you at all. I think you're assuming that someone who commits a crime thinks the same way you do, but I don't believe that they do. I believe that the neural "mechanics" behind decision making are complicated, and that to assume someone who stabs his mother in law 37 has taken the time to think through the probablility of various possible consequences is not aware of what goes on in such a person's head. Someone who "chooses" to stab his mother in law 37 times does not think like the rest of us who resist the temptation. That's why I think it's a moral obligation to figure out why they do what they do and learn how to prevent it for everyone's sake. I believe that you're projecting your own decision making capabilities onto criminals, whom I think have very different minds.

 

[Storm]

On a principle level, if a system can never be 100% sure that someone is guilty, would it be moral to execute him?

Couldn't this argument be applied to incarceration as well?

This is why the standard of evidence in criminal trials is so high, beyond all reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, jursies don't always adhere to that standard, especially in particularly heinous crimes.

 

[Storm]

I dissapprove of incarceration for punitive purposes, where ever possible a person should be rehabilitated. I never said anything about not locking people up, except in basements.

If you treat someone like an animal, they will act accordingly and you become a person who treats people like animals. I don't see how this is helpful to society.

Ah, thank you for clarifying.

 

[Aquitaine]

On a principle level, if a system can never be 100% sure that someone is guilty, would it be moral to execute him?

Well, it's impossible to get 100% accuracy of course, but do we really need 100% with most murder/rape cases?

It's all in the evidence, and if we find the guy's semen, and the gunpowder from his gun on the victim, along with his fingerprints on the gun - what else do we need?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Couldn't this argument be applied to incarceration as well?

Certainly could be, but it wouldn't be very pragmatic or practical. The important distinction between the two is that once you're executed, you can't be exonerated.

This is why the standard of evidence in criminal trials is so high, beyond all reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, jursies don't always adhere to that standard, especially in particularly heinous crimes.

And this is why something as permanent as death should never be sentenced.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I thought Kenneth McDuff from Texas would have made your short list.

Sentenced to death in 66 for rape/murder of three teenagers. Sentence reduced to life because of the US Supreme Court's decision regarding the death penalty in 72.

Paroled in 89 due to prison overcrowding.

Went on to kill several more... Wikipedia puts his victim count at more than 14

Was eventually executed in 98.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's all in the evidence, and if we find the guy's semen, and the gunpowder from his gun on the victim, along with his fingerprints on the gun - what else do we need?

An absolute certainty that evidence hadn't been planted or faked.