The Death Penalty

[Storm]

Certainly could be, but it wouldn't be very pragmatic or practical. The important distinction between the two is that once you're executed, you can't be exonerated.

Oh, you can always be exonerated. You just can't be resurrected because of it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Oh, you can always be exonerated. You just can't be resurrected because of it.

Touche.

 

[England my lionheart]

Monta,the point i'm making is if that convicted murderer is 100% guilty they should pay the penalty,the people in that list were very guilty to the extent they did it again and there are many cases where it is 100%.
The real problem isn't the death penalty but how the decision to apply the punishment is reached,false evidence,Police corruption,mistaken identity etc but straightcut cases like the Parents of Baby P should pay the penalty of death,as it stands they will get new identities and a home when they are released and that to me isn't Justice and thats why the punishment should be like for like.

 

[Nepenthe]

What, after they died in their cells?

No, unless I misunderstood you. I was referring to atotalstranger responding:

If a system cannot be shown to be 100% accurate in determining guilt, then having a death penalty should not even be a consideration.

and you responding:

The same could be said for life sentences, the innocent could die in his cell long before they realise he's innocent.

The point being at least the innocent was able to live out the duration of their life to actively seek redress, freedom, and better their lives under their incarcerated conditions, etc. That's better than death by a long shot imo.

Who knows how long it could take for someone to make a breakthrough and realise the convicted was infact innocent? It could take 100 years.

Then best to err in favor of keeping them alive.

 

[MSizer]

MSizer, are you a determinist? It's a bit tangential, but might help me understand your position.

Oops, didn't see your question earlier Storm. I'm not certain that I am, but I sure have a hard time discrediting the theory behind determinism. I'm tempted to say "yes", and I certainly appeal to determinism in many of my thoughts, but at the same time I do believe that we have the ability to reason, so somehow I think there is some sort of free will, I just can't quite define it yet for myself. I guess the short answer is "yes for now, but there's something about it that makes me think it's too simple to be completely correct".

 

[Storm]

OK, thanks.

 

[England my lionheart]

I thought Kenneth McDuff from Texas would have made your short list.

Sentenced to death in 66 for rape/murder of three teenagers. Sentence reduced to life because of the US Supreme Court's decision regarding the death penalty in 72.

Paroled in 89 due to prison overcrowding.

Went on to kill several more... Wikipedia puts his victim count at more than 14

Was eventually executed in 98.

The list is so long i just could'nt fit it all in

 

[England my lionheart]

What if the murderer is 100% guilty,the Mother and two lovers that tortured her Baby Son over the course of 17 months where Social services were involved till his evential death is an open and shut case but hey its going to be ok for these people because they will walk free one day instead of paying the ultimate price for their crimes.

PS the case was that of Baby P,i still cannot read about it because its so horrific

 

[Aquitaine]

No, unless I misunderstood you. I was referring to atotalstranger responding:

and you responding:

The point being at least the innocent was able to live out the duration of their life to actively seek redress, freedom, and better their lives under their incarcerated conditions, etc. That's better than death by a long shot imo.

Then best to err in favor of keeping them alive.

But there are just some cases that're plain freakin' obvious, like if somone is caught on CCTV camera etc. The evidence never lies, there comes a point during an investigation where the evidence clearly shows he was guilty.

Also, I wonder out of all the people sentenced to Death, how many are actually innocent?

 

[Nepenthe]

But there are just some cases that're plain freakin' obvious, like if somone is caught on CCTV camera etc. The evidence never lies, there comes a point during an investigation where the evidence clearly shows he was guilty.

Sure- and this is where death penalty arguments boil down to an insurmountable disagreement- I still think the death penalty is a violation even if the convicted is 100% certain of guilt.

Also, I wonder out of all the people sentenced to Death, how many are actually innocent?

135 so far in the U.S.

 

[Enoch07]

The point being at least the innocent was able to live out the duration of their life to actively seek redress, freedom, and better their lives under their incarcerated conditions, etc. That's better than death by a long shot imo.

Wow that is rather imaginative way to view prison. Considering that over 50% of criminals repeat the same crime over and over again. It is safe to say that the they are not seeking redress, freedom or trying to better their lives. You underestimate what kind of monsters they are, and the atrocities they have committed. Jeffrey Dahmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It seems most people forget this guy and his atrocities. Ironically enough him and another inmate was murdered by another convicted murderer in prison.

 

[Nepenthe]

Wow that is rather imaginative way to view prison. Considering that over 50% of criminals repeat the same crime over and over again. It is safe to say that the they are not seeking redress, freedom or trying to better their lives. You underestimate what kind of monsters they are, and the atrocities they have committed. Jeffrey Dahmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It seems most people forget this guy and his atrocities. Ironically enough him and another inmate was murdered by another convicted murderer in prison.

One more time:

The point being at least the innocent was able to live out the duration of their life to actively seek redress, freedom, and better their lives under their incarcerated conditions, etc. That's better than death by a long shot imo.

 

[monta]

Monta,the point i'm making is if that convicted murderer is 100% guilty they should pay the penalty,the people in that list were very guilty to the extent they did it again and there are many cases where it is 100%.
The real problem isn't the death penalty but how the decision to apply the punishment is reached,false evidence,Police corruption,mistaken identity etc but straightcut cases like the Parents of Baby P should pay the penalty of death,as it stands they will get new identities and a home when they are released and that to me isn't Justice and thats why the punishment should be like for like.

I am saying that the need for revenge is an understandable emotion, but it doesn't make it right. If someone can be rehabilitated they should be. If the funds that are used to punish are routed to help instead, the recidivism rate drops, oddly there is no evidence to support , what would seem like the logical idea, that the more people are locked up the less crime there is.

The baby P. case was a chilling indictment of the British social services, which are underfunded and overburdened.

There were 3 adults in the baby P case, all of them as guilty as the next but not all of them killed the child. So is that justice 3 people with equal contribution to the death of the child but only one would be executed, provided you could conclusively prove which one gave the fatal blow. What about the children who murdered Jamie Bolger, should they have been executed ?

 

[Enoch07]

The point being at least the innocent was able to live out the duration of their life to actively seek redress, freedom, and better their lives under their incarcerated conditions, etc. That's better than death by a long shot imo.

Oops sorry.

 

[Nepenthe]

Oops sorry.

No worries.

 

[Aquitaine]

Sure- and this is where death penalty arguments boil down to an insurmountable disagreement- I still think the death penalty is a violation even if the convicted is 100% certain of guilt.

WHA???!!!
Say what?
Huh?
Eh?
Uuuuuu....(?)

So you wouldn't want the likes of Ian Huntley to be executed, because it would be a "violation", violation of what exactly?!

To me, the attitude you take is also considerably evil - people who want to grant such scumbags the "right" to stay alive. You gotta be kidding me.

 

[MSizer]

Wow that is rather imaginative way to view prison. Considering that over 50% of criminals repeat the same crime over and over again.

If you are sick, you can expect to remain sick until you are given treatment. That's true of conventional "physical" illnesses and mental illnesses. You're going to sneeze as long as you have a cold, and you're going to be a social deviant as long as you're mentally ill.

 

[Aquitaine]

If someone can be rehabilitated they should be.

Bah, rehabilitating is only for petty criminals, not the big fish.
I've seen enough cases in the UK of the Justice System taking this namby-pamby approach and giving murderers and rapists "Rehabilitation" (i.e. 5-star prison cell with Sky+ and a PS3), all the ever results form that is the offender being let out early, and then (to everybodies surprise) goes out and murders/rapes again.
Hell, I even remmeber that Murderer taking photos of himself "relaxing" in his cell on his mobile phone, and how many prisoners prefer to stay in prison because it's so cozy.


Pfffft.

 

[Nepenthe]

WHA???!!!
Say what?
Huh?
Eh?
Uuuuuu....(?)

So you wouldn't want the likes of Ian Huntley to be executed, because it would be a "violation", violation of what exactly?!

Basic human rights. I elaborated in post #315.

To me, the attitude you take is also considerably evil - people who want to grant such scumbags the "right" to stay alive. You gotta be kidding me.

Not kidding at all. I see state supported executions as barbaric and immoral.

 

[Aquitaine]

[/FONT]
Basic human rights. I elaborated in post #315.


Not kidding at all. I see state supported executions as barbaric and immoral.

With all due repsect, good sir, you need a hard slap accross the face.