The Death Penalty

[MSizer]

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Basic human rights. I elaborated in post #315.


Not kidding at all. I see state supported executions as barbaric and immoral.

I'm with you on this Nepenthe - I think we really need to reconsider the way we do things. I'm not against controlling criminals, and unfortunately for now that means locking them up, which is cruel, but better than allowing them to find new victims. However, the death penalty is permanent, and that's giving up on them. That was useful in our societies in the past, but now we have reason to beleive that cures are possible, and we owe it to those people and to their potential vicitims to act on it.

 

[Nepenthe]

With all due repsect, good sir, you need a hard slap accross the face.

Slapping hasn't worked as a deterrent on me yet. Do you have stats or links to support your argument?
:sarcastic

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm with you on this Nepenthe - I think we really need to reconsider the way we do things. I'm not against controlling criminals, and unfortunately for now that means locking them up, which is cruel, but better than allowing them to find new victims. However, the death penalty is permanent, and that's giving up on them. That was useful in our societies in the past, but now we have reason to beleive that cures are possible, and we owe it to those people and to their potential vicitims to act on it.

What!?

MSizer, they signed away their Human Rights the moment they stuck their penis/knife into their helpless innocent victims.

I feel inclined to assume you are an appologist for evil, in this matter.

 

[McBell]

I'm with you on this Nepenthe - I think we really need to reconsider the way we do things. I'm not against controlling criminals, and unfortunately for now that means locking them up, which is cruel, but better than allowing them to find new victims. However, the death penalty is permanent, and that's giving up on them. That was useful in our societies in the past, but now we have reason to beleive that cures are possible, and we owe it to those people and to their potential vicitims to act on it.

huh?
We owe it to their future victims, the ones they kill AFTER their "rehabilitation," to try and rehabilitate them?

 

[Aquitaine]

Slapping hasn't worked as a deterrent on me yet. Do you have stats or links to support your argument?

:sarcastic

Hmmm, I guess then I'll murder one of your relatives and see if that "works".

 

[MSizer]

What!?

MSizer, they signed away their Human Rights the moment they stuck their penis/knife into their helpless innocent victims.

I feel inclined to assume you are an appologist for evil, in this matter.

OK, so what about criminals who have brain defects due to the cocaine use of their mothers during pregnancy. What do we say to them? "Sorry, your mother was an idiot before you were born, and as a result we have to kill you?" Not in my books we don't.

Even better still, what about people with mental retardation? Do we kill a person who didn't understand the consequences of forcing himself on another person? I don't think so.

Yes, we may have to lock them up until we figure out how to change the behaviour, but killing them is giving up.

 

[monta]

Bah, rehabilitating is only for petty criminals, not the big fish.
I've seen enough cases in the UK of the Justice System taking this namby-pamby approach and giving murderers and rapists "Rehabilitation" (i.e. 5-star prison cell with Sky+ and a PS3), all the ever results form that is the offender being let out early, and then (to everybodies surprise) goes out and murders/rapes again.
Hell, I even remmeber that Murderer taking photos of himself "relaxing" in his cell on his mobile phone, and how many prisoners prefer to stay in prison because it's so cozy.


Pfffft.

So rapists as well as murderers get the death penalty, what about child pornographers, people who mug pensioners, drug addicts, come on we all know for a fact all heroin addicts fund their habbits by crime and are statistically unlikely to kick the drug.

I have to wonder at wasting money putting locks and gaurds in these luxurious palaces, have you been in a prison btw or did you just see an artists interpretation of one in an editorial in the Sun the fact that some people prefer prison to life on the street can't possibly be the basis of your arguent surely.

 

[Aquitaine]

OK, so what about criminals who have brain defects due to the cocaine use of their mothers during pregnancy. What do we say to them? "Sorry, your mother was an idiot before you were born, and as a result we have to kill you?" Not in my books we don't.

Well if you're talking about true mental illnesses, by true I mean a genuine case, and not a "Oh erm.... I murdered my ex because erm..... I'm a total schizophrenic innit, and erm, I have like nightmares, yeah....... so can I skip jail and go to a cosy mental home instead?", then it does become a lot more difficult.

I think if there is someone who suffers a serious mental disorder that limits their judgement, like if they were retarded or something, then I'd have them confined in a mental home. But that's for the genuine people who arn't developed enough to know what they're doing, not for criminals who just blatently pretend they've got issues just to get a lighter sentence.

 

[MSizer]

huh?
We owe it to their future victims, the ones they kill AFTER their "rehabilitation," to try and rehabilitate them?

I'm not saying we know how yet, I'm saying we have reason to believe there are ways to rehabilitate. To assume that our current knowledge about human behaviour is satisfactory to start giving criminals some cookie cutter 5-step and then letting them back on the street would be foolish. We are a long way away yet from providing reliable rehab, but there is reason to believe it can exist, and we have a moral obligation to find it.

 

[McBell]

I'm not saying we know how yet, I'm saying we have reason to believe there are ways to rehabilitate. To assume that our current knowledge about human behaviour is satisfactory to start giving criminals some cookie cutter 5-step and then letting them back on the street would be foolish. We are a long way away yet from providing reliable rehab, but there is reason to believe it can exist, and we have a moral obligation to find it.

and how, pray tell, does a convicted murderer going out after rehabilitation and murdering more people any reason to believe that murderers can be rehabilitated?

 

[Aquitaine]

So rapists as well as murderers get the death penalty, what about child pornographers, people who mug pensioners, drug addicts, come on we all know for a fact all heroin addicts fund their habbits by crime and are statistically unlikely to kick the drug.

I have to wonder at wasting money putting locks and gaurds in these luxurious palaces, have you been in a prison btw or did you just see an artists interpretation of one in an editorial in the Sun the fact that some people prefer prison to life on the street can't possibly be the basis of your arguent surely.

LOL, the Sun - hahaha!
I've read in plenty of reports the quality of UK prisons, and how they're quite cozy - 3 free meals a day and free gym access in just the start. Even one killer was quoted, after being sentenced, saying "Yeah, I've done bird before, free gym and meals". I've read cases where prisoners have access to drugs whilst in prison too.

Murders, and Rapists should be put to death, along with Pedophiles. People who mug pensioners should get jailtime and be made to pay double the amount of money stolen, along with a good ***-kicking whilst in prison. Drug addicts should go to rehab and when ready, be put on a work scheme of some sort.

Quite frankly, we're overpopulated as it is, and we can't afford to waste our resources hugging all these scumbags, especially when they're so keen on ruining (and taking) the lives of innocent, upstanding Citizens.

 

[Nepenthe]

Hmmm, I guess then I'll murder one of your relatives and see if that "works".

I honestly have no idea what this means in relation to my post(s)...

 

[Aquitaine]

I honestly have no idea what this means in relation to my post(s)...

If I killed your family, would you still object to me being executed by the State, because it "violates" my "rights"?

 

[MSizer]

Well if you're talking about true mental illnesses, by true I mean a genuine case, and not a "Oh erm.... I murdered my ex because erm..... I'm a total schizophrenic innit, and erm, I have like nightmares, yeah....... so can I skip jail and go to a cosy mental home instead?", then it does become a lot more difficult.

I think if there is someone who suffers a serious mental disorder that limits their judgement, like if they were retarded or something, then I'd have them confined in a mental home. But that's for the genuine people who arn't developed enough to know what they're doing, not for criminals who just blatently pretend they've got issues just to get a lighter sentence.

Right, ok, but how do you know what goes on in another person's head? You can't. I believe that Socrates was correct when he said that nobody does anything wrong on purpose. The fact is that we are all slaves to our neurology, and I believe that criminal acts are usually considered criminal because they defy the rules that promote social order. That's the moral sense we've developed in our evolution, but now we have the ability to think more deeply, and we can see now that brain function determines all choices. Therefore, if we want to consider ourselves morally enlightened, we need to make a strong effort to figure out why certain people act the way they do (criminals) and prevent them from being criminals in the first place. That way no little girl gets raped, no 28 year old social outcast has to be killed, and we don't have to debate the matter. Everybody wins. The fact is IMO that people seem to have this belief that criminals do things for the same reasons that we might, but they think differently than the rest of us, and we need to understand it better before we can take absolute means such as capital punishment IMO. How would you like to know you had a son who received the death penalty for raping and killing a girl, and then 10 years later a therapy is designed that would have prevented his crime in the first place? Wouldn't you resent those who chose to kill him, knowing that if they'd just waited he could be normal again?

 

[Enoch07]

I am sorry but, honestly I do not see how it is different than a dog that kills a person. I cannot think of an single instance where a dog has attacked or killed a person, and it was not immediately euthanized. We execute any animals who murder, without even so much as a second thought, and they do not even know the difference between right and wrong. A person, who does know right from wrong (not mentally ill) and murders regardless is worse than any dog, so why should we treat them better than we do a dog? I get it that you are going to have 1 in 1,000 wrongly convicted, which is as good as it can get for humans. I am willing to accept that, because no human justice system is perfect and it is a fallacy to believe there ever could be.

 

[Aquitaine]

Right, ok, but how do you know what goes on in another person's head? You can't.

Well then, how do you know that all these Rapists and Murderers in fact do have the same mental capacity as we do, and commit these crimes purely for self-gain?

There's a big differences between a rapist/murderer who did it in cold blood, for personal gain, than a retarded person who accidentally caused the death of someone and had no idea what was happening.

 

[MSizer]

I am sorry but, honestly I do not see how it is different than a dog that kills a person. I cannot think of an single instance where a dog has attacked or killed a person, and it was not immediately euthanized. We execute any animals who murder, without even so much as a second thought, and they do not even know the difference between right and wrong. A person, who does know right from wrong (not mentally ill) and murders regardless is worse than any dog, so why should we treat them better than we do a dog? I get it that you are going to have 1 in 1,000 wrongly convicted, which is as good as it can get for humans. I am willing to accept that, because no human justice system is perfect and it is a fallacy to believe there ever could be.

Making a comparison to a dog is fallacious because most people don't consider dogs to have the same moral due consideration as a human. Also, as long as the 1 in 1000 is your kid and not mine, fine.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If you are sick, you can expect to remain sick until you are given treatment. That's true of conventional "physical" illnesses and mental illnesses. You're going to sneeze as long as you have a cold, and you're going to be a social deviant as long as you're mentally ill.

If you've got a deadly virus... would you rather kill the virus and be cured, or keep it alive while managing the symptoms?

 

[MSizer]

If you've got a deadly virus... would you rather kill the virus and be cured, or keep it alive while managing the symptoms?

I'd rather stay alive thank you very much. If I can kill the virus without killing myself, that's even better.

 

[MSizer]

Well then, how do you know that all these Rapists and Murderers in fact do have the same mental capacity as we do, and commit these crimes purely for self-gain?

There's a big differences between a rapist/murderer who did it in cold blood, for personal gain, than a retarded person who accidentally caused the death of someone and had no idea what was happening.

Because no normal person would. Think about it. Try to imagine yourself (I know this is uncomfortable, but seriously) actually going through the motions of sneaking into some helpless girls room, taking advantage of her, killing her, hiding her body and then trying to sleep at night while her parents show up on the news begging for information on the whereabouts of their daughter. Seriously, do you honestly think you could do that? I know for a fact I couldn't. Sure I'd love to have sex with a whole bunch of young girls, but the thought of taking it by force is repulsive. It is to you too i expect. That's proof enough for me that anyone who does do it is different than me in some very fundamental way.