The Death Penalty

[Kilgore Trout]

I am willing to accept that, because no human justice system is perfect and it is a fallacy to believe there ever could be.

I doubt you'd be willing to accept it if you were that 1 out of a 1000.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'd rather stay alive thank you very much. If I can kill the virus without killing myself, that's even better.

Of course. But don't forget, every drug has a side effect.

 

[Enoch07]

I doubt you'd be willing to accept it if you were that 1 out of a 1000.

Actually yah. In fact if I was wrongly convicted even after all my appeals was up I would ask for the death penalty. No way am I rotting in a jail cell wrongly convicted for rest of my life.

 

[Aquitaine]

Because no normal person would. Think about it. Try to imagine yourself (I know this is uncomfortable, but seriously) actually going through the motions of sneaking into some helpless girls room, taking advantage of her, killing her, hiding her body and then trying to sleep at night while her parents show up on the news begging for information on the whereabouts of their daughter. Seriously, do you honestly think you could do that? I know for a fact I couldn't. Sure I'd love to have sex with a whole bunch of young girls, but the thought of taking it by force is repulsive. It is to you too i expect. That's proof enough for me that anyone who does do it is different than me in some very fundamental way.

Yeah, they're different form me and you in one very big fundamental way - they're arsehole scumbags, another rather significant difference is that they'll be getting electrocuted or hung, and we won't.

That's the price you pay for doing something so hideous. It doesn't mean they're "mentally ill", it just means they're fullfilling their primitive selfish urges (i.e sex/rape) without having the decency to apply restraint and consideration for other people. Those such people have no place in any civilized society.

 

[MSizer]

Of course. But don't forget, every drug has a side effect.

I haven't forgotten that. First of all I'm not necessarily promoting drug use, there are many different effective forms of treatment, but even so, drugs in controlled dosages are effective. Are you telling me that if a doctor said to you "you're going to die within a week if you don't take this drug" that you'd say "well, I don't know doc, there could be side effects. Give me two weeks to think about it"? Please.

 

[MSizer]

Yeah, they're different form me and you in one very big fundamental way - they're arsehole scumbags, another rather significant difference is that they'll be getting electrocuted or hung, and we won't.

That's the price you pay for doing something so hideous. It doesn't mean they're "mentally ill", it just means they're fullfilling their primitive selfish urges (i.e sex/rape) without having the decency to apply restraint and consideration for other people. Those such people have no place in any civilized society.

I think you're wrong.

 

[Aquitaine]

I think you're wrong.

Well, to be fair, given your outlook on this issue, I'm glad I'm not on your "side" here.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Actually yah. In fact if I was wrongly convicted even after all my appeals was up I would ask for the death penalty. No way am I rotting in a jail cell wrongly convicted for rest of my life.

Accepting your fate isn't the same as accepting the injustice.

You'd be alright being executed for a crime you didn't commit?

 

[Poisonshady313]

I haven't forgotten that. First of all I'm not necessarily promoting drug use, there are many different effective forms of treatment, but even so, drugs in controlled dosages are effective. Are you telling me that if a doctor said to you "you're going to die within a week if you don't take this drug" that you'd say "well, I don't know doc, there could be side effects. Give me two weeks to think about it"? Please.

For the sake of maintaining the metaphor.... that's not what I'm saying... that's what you're saying.

A doctor is trying to cure your cancer, and you, to be consistent with your zero tolerance of adverse side effects, say no because there's a good chance that you're going to lose your hair.

Though a cancer patient is more likely to lose their hair while receiving treatment than an innocent person is to be executed.

There is NOT a good chance that an innocent person will be executed.

There's less than a 0.2% chance that a guilty murderer will be executed... the chance that an innocent person will be among that 0.2% is significantly smaller, considering, at worst, if certain reports are to be believed, 23 of 1174 executions were wrong... though there are reasons to doubt the reliability of such reports, making the number of innocently executed much smaller.

 

[Aquitaine]

Also, MSizer, another thing to consider if you rehabilitate murderers/rapists is the feelings of the victim/relatives.

How one Earth do you think they're gonna react when they see the man who raped/murdered their daughter chilling out in a cafe spending his money on a nice coffee, and then driving home to go to his house and spend some "quality, family time"?

That right there would drive me to murder him, if I was a relative of a rape/murder victim.

 

[MSizer]

Also, MSizer, another thing to consider if you rehabilitate murderers/rapists is the feelings of the victim/relatives.

How one Earth do you think they're gonna react when they see the man who raped/murdered their daughter chilling out in a cafe spending his money on a nice coffee, and then driving home to go to his house and spend some "quality, family time"?

That right there would drive me to murder him, if I was a relative of a rape/murder victim.

I'm reaching for the greater good her Paul, I don't necessarily think it's going to be easy. My goal isn't to wait until someone commits a crime to cure them and then watch them bask in the sun, my goal is to catch criminals before they commit so we can watch their would be victims bask in the sun rather than in memorial service pictures. I'm not trying to belittle the effect that would have to be addressed initially to those family members who have lost loved ones, but I hardly consider that an argument for allowing the problem to go on.

 

[Nepenthe]

If I killed your family, would you still object to me being executed by the State, because it "violates" my "rights"?

Sure. That is if I didn't hunt down and attack the perp myself. I'm no pacifist.
But your analogy doesn't work too well: my personal emotional response is irrelevant when compared to a government's decisions. My individual hard-wired response to meet violence against loved ones with violence is not the same response I want hard-wired into my government. The potential for abuse is too great.

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm reaching for the greater good her Paul, I don't necessarily think it's going to be easy. My goal isn't to wait until someone commits a crime to cure them and then watch them bask in the sun, my goal is to catch criminals before they commit so we can watch their would be victims bask in the sun rather than in memorial service pictures.

But you earlier on were talking about rehabilitating known murderers/rapists.

If you wanna prevent such crimes, then yeah, I'm with you there, but it certainly isn't gonna work if all the criminals know they'll get 5-star cushy treatment if they go to jail, just look at the UK for that example.

We need to prevent crime, what you were talking about earlier was how your "deal" with the already convicted criminals.

 

[Enoch07]

Accepting your fate isn't the same as accepting the injustice.

You'd be alright being executed for a crime you didn't commit?

Yes, because if I used up all my appeals and still wrongly convicted then there is nothing more I can do but
A) Rot in jail for the next 50-60 years
B) accept death penalty.

I would rather have it done and over with, than be miserable for a lifetime, pop a cap in me, cremate me, don't need a funeral, don't need a priest, chuck the ashes out in the woods somewhere and life goes on.

 

[Aquitaine]

Sure. That is if I didn't hunt down and attack the perp myself. I'm no pacifist.

But your analogy doesn't work too well: my personal emotional response is irrelevant when compared to a government's decisions. My individual hard-wired response to meet violence against loved ones with violence is not the same response I want hard-wired into my government. The potential for abuse is too great.

Yes but, as you just said "Sure", you wouldn't want the State to execute me, nor think it was appropriate. Now the same will apply to murderers all over the world, in your opinion.

Why oh why oh why, do you cherish the lives of murderers and rapists?

 

[MSizer]

But you earlier on were talking about rehabilitating known murderers/rapists.

If you wanna prevent such crimes, then yeah, I'm with you there, but it certainly isn't gonna work if all the criminals know they'll get 5-star cushy treatment if they go to jail, just look at the UK for that example.

We need to prevent crime, what you were talking about earlier was how your "deal" with the already convicted criminals.

Well yes of course, becuase for now we do have criminals who have already offended, it's too late to prevent that. I still think they deserve any treatment any other person is entitled to, so if we find a "magic cure" for a certain behaviour, whether a person has already commited or is a known "likely to offend" based on some criteria, they both deserve the cure. The fact that the former offender will have tremendous guilt will be punishment enough IMO. The real objective of course is to get to prevention.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes, because if I used up all my appeals and still wrongly convicted then there is nothing more I can do but
A) Rot in jail for the next 50-60 years
B) accept death penalty.

I would rather have it done and over with, than be miserable for a lifetime, pop a cap in me, cremate me, don't need a funeral don't need a priest, chuck the ashes out in the woods somewhere and life goes on.

Yeah, that doesn't really answer the question - but okay.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'm reaching for the greater good her Paul, I don't necessarily think it's going to be easy. My goal isn't to wait until someone commits a crime to cure them and then watch them bask in the sun, my goal is to catch criminals before they commit so we can watch their would be victims bask in the sun rather than in memorial service pictures. I'm not trying to belittle the effect that would have to be addressed initially to those family members who have lost loved ones, but I hardly consider that an argument for allowing the problem to go on.

Speed limits are posted and divers ed courses very thoroughly condition new drivers to drive legally....

But when someone's driving 20 MPH over the speed limit, they should be given a ticket.

Violations of the law shouldn't be ignored... otherwise, they shouldn't be regarded as violations.

If murderers are to be treated no more harshly than a guy whose third strike is shoplifting golf clubs, the conclusion to be drawn is that murder is no different than shoplifting golf clubs.

I find that to be a morally bankrupt position... don't you?

 

[MSizer]

Speed limits are posted and divers ed courses very thoroughly condition new drivers to drive legally....

But when someone's driving 20 MPH over the speed limit, they should be given a ticket.

Violations of the law shouldn't be ignored... otherwise, they shouldn't be regarded as violations.

If murderers are to be treated no more harshly than a guy whose third strike is shoplifting golf clubs, the conclusion to be drawn is that murder is no different than shoplifting golf clubs.

I find that to be a morally bankrupt position... don't you?

First of all, I don't agree necessarily that someone speeding should be given a ticket. I do agree that yes, today that is the best means we know of to control driving habits, but my point is that it would be better if we could find a way to prevent people from speeding in the first place rather than simply by punishing them afterward. The problem with that model is that it doesn't help the person who dies in a car crash before the speeder is caught.

Secondly, I don't think that a person who boosts stereos is commiting an act that is as grievous as a rapist, however the bottom line is that both acts are undesirable to the victims, and we'd all be happier if nobody commited them. I think that if we can find methods of prevention rather than punishments to deter (which by the way don't always deter) then we'd live in a more morally enlightened society and we could look back at this "dark" part of our history and be thankful it's in the past.

 

[Aquitaine]

Well yes of course, becuase for now we do have criminals who have already offended, it's too late to prevent that. I still think they deserve any treatment any other person is entitled to, so if we find a "magic cure" for a certain behaviour, whether a person has already commited or is a known "likely to offend" based on some criteria, they both deserve the cure. The fact that the former offender will have tremendous guilt will be punishment enough IMO. The real objective of course is to get to prevention.

Why bother wasting resources giving the scumbag murderers/Rapists a second chance, when instead we can just *cocks gun*.... ahem, and move on, and focus all our efforts for reducing/preventing future offences?

But quite frankly, I think it's appauling to think that such people can be rehabilitated!? Even if it did work, it would cause tremendous trauma and stress for the relatives of the victims, knowing that they're nemesis, they're nightmare that has slashed a huge cut through their lives and changed their future forever, is being given a second chance, and is smiling all the way, laughing at them (and the Justice System) giving them a nice middle finger as he drives off into the sunset to restart his life.

The most Moral thing do to IMO, is have the murderer share the same fate as his victim. I'd only accept the idea of no death penalty, if they're all forced to work as slaves until they die naturally, atleast that way we can milk them of whatever "use" they have before having them killed.