waitasec
Veteran Member
yeah he's got other thing's on his mind
like what to do after the entire universe is swallowed up by a black hole...
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The debate of God.
- Thread starter Daviso452
- Start date
yeah he's got other thing's on his mind
like what to do after the entire universe is swallowed up by a black hole...
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
yeah he's got other thing's on his mind
like what to do after the entire universe is swallowed up by a black hole...
I think She just wants us to leave Her alone and settle the whole thing on our own
Landerage
Araknor
Why would God come to earth and settle it down ? Why would a king work in a farm ?
Fresh turnips?
As a humbling experience? After all, human kings do not necessarily know what it's like working on a farm. ^_^
religion99
Active Member
If you KNOW for sure that there is no God , then you are God.
Corkscrew
I'm ready to believe
Corkscrew
I'm ready to believe
It seems, according to Christianity anyways, that this God considers this farm pretty important; otherwise why would he send his son to die on it.
the hierachy of all religions are all following one agenda and always have....filling us with lies based on slants of the truth so of course people cant make sense of it.... its just the tradition of the elders dressed up as different flavors of the same thing... i believe there are some really good descriptions of this available on the net and it was obvious to me from a young age that most religions are dogmatic and tell you what to believe from a 15th century perspective...this is intentional to make you either a satanist, atheist or cattle etc...in other words yes.
religion99
Active Member
You are obviously very young. By the time you reach forty , you'll realize that your parents were smarter than you and your grandparents were smarter than your parents and 15th century people were much smarter than 21st century idiots.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
I'm confident in saying that I process more new information in a day than someone in the 15th century processed in a year.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
God gave us what we need to get to know Him and to find our way:
1- He gave us an advanced intellect which can reason on an abstract level, and figure out many things in this amazing universe through reading, learning, thinking and seeking more knowledge
2- He also gave us His Guidance:
a) He sent humanity thousands of His prophets and messengers (with clear signs) to show us His Straight Path
b) He sent us Divine Revelations, and His final Divine Book is with us today for those searching for the Truth
Now it's our duty to "pass the test" ...
And it's an open book test
Averroes
Active Member
God gave us what we need to get to know Him and to find our way:
1- He gave us an advanced intellect which can reason on an abstract level, and figure out many things in this amazing universe through reading, learning, thinking and seeking more knowledge
2- He also gave us His Guidance:
a) He sent humanity thousands of His prophets and messengers (with clear signs) to show us His Straight Path
b) He sent us Divine Revelations, and His final Divine Book is with us today for those searching for the Truth
Now it's our duty to "pass the test" ...
And it's an open book test
He sent us prophets?
Sure there were many people proclaiming to be sent by God. However how does one decipher from a real prophet and a phony? All these prophets existed long before you and I. What society today needs is a new miracle. Muhammad being the last prophet in your religion does not help me believe because in order for me to believe in your Muhammad I need to have faith.
As waitasec has rightly stated, a large part of religious belief is the intagible comfort that something greater than ourselves, greater than the universe exists. However as I stated before Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham none of which gives me comfort when I see dying children in hospitals or people suffering from cancer.
I firmly believe that society needs a new miracle something that we all experience together and say "wow maybe the sky wizard is real!"
But you know what onw passage in the holy Quran always stuck out to me. This passage relates to skeptics who ask for "Signs of God" I imperfectly quote
"Even if Allah opened up the heavens and showed them angels and his signs they would still disbelieve" I hope the Muslims forgive me for incorrectly quoting the Qur'an. I mentioned that to say even with skeptics and my own skepticism, even if Allah (God) showed us that he existed would that change our beliefs?
How do we know that if God came down and said "hey I am here" how do we know that we all would suddenly believe? I think the most wonderful thing about life is not knowing.
I think thats God's cruel joke. Its almost like being blind folded and being fed dog sh** and being told its really chocolate.
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A.Anderson
Member
Corkscrew said:
Daviso452 said:
Or maybe it is for the same reason unicorns don't prove their existence.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
Hello Averroes
I like that name
A real prophet is a prophet who invites people to God's Path and guides them to what God wants us to do in order to live a real life in this world and in the Hereafter
God's prophets do not claim to be God, and they do not take worldly gains for guiding people to the Truth
For people who lived in the time of God's prophets, they saw and experienced God's signs in the miracles God supported His prophets with, and this was evidence of them being real prophets.
For later generations who did not witness these miracles, we have God's Last Guidance with us today which is intact, and all what we need to do is read it to find out for ourselves whether it is a book written by a human being, or not ...
A miracle for all later generations is a miracle which all people can see and read for themselves to reflect upon and decide based on human intellect which God gave all mankind ....
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
It's not a cruel joke, Averroes, it's the consequence of free will
If God wanted all people to believe in Him, He could have done so, but He didn't because He created us with a free will
Free will means the free choice to believe or disbelieve, and if one believes the freedom to obey or disobey.
God wants us to believe in Him and obey Him by our own free will and He gave us what we need to take that "right" decision
The meaning of the verse you mentioned is that those who choose to disbelieve, (not because they are convinced that God does not exist but because they want to live this life the way they please), would not change their minds even if God showed them His angels. This is one verse (6:111)
"And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allāh should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant." (6:111)
God allows a seeker of truth to believe when He knows that this person is really searching for the Truth
Only He knows our intentions ...
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
No, he didn't. He gave us only unreliable heresay.
Remember, you are allowed to believe that the sky is green. Believing the sky to be blue doesn't mean you don't have free will.
Well, no, because unicorns, if they exist, would likely have the same intelligence capability of a horse, so they would be unable to comprehend belief or disbelief, and thus would be unable to make the choice to prove their existence to a non-believing species.
In all seriousness, though, I recognize that as a possibility, and I didn't say it because I figured it was obvious. I just wanted to throw out another possibility.
Landerage
Araknor
God says in the Qur'an what means that on judgement day, those who are sent to Hell will ask God to be resent back to Earth, and to do better deeds and have a great faith, and he says that even if they are resent back, he knows that they will never do it (made by their own free will and free choice).
If you decide not to follow any of the known prophets, then it's your own personal choice and nobody but yourself is responsible of it (and that means God isn't responsible of that choice) as for me, I beleive in the prophets for those who ask to do good in life and never asked for somethign in return during their life. I simply think, they have no reason to lie, they are just sending us the message and doing what they are told to do.
" Muhammad being the last prophet in your religion does not help me believe because in order for me to believe in your Muhammad I need to have faith." this sentance doesn't make much sense to me, except that your asking for a perfect knowledge in God and not faith.
Before blaming God for children who have cancer, and the misery in the world, why dont we see what humans did that caused that suffery? Ever heard of food causing cancer? or pollution? or the tons of different things that human did wrong because of their greediness for money and own selfish reasons? After we do that, we can see that some children dies from natural causes, and some suffery is caused by "nature", well God does send children to heaven where that suffery would be forgotten. On another hand, suffery is needed to make people aware of things, and to teach them lessons that they would learn moral values and other lessons from them, so eventualy that suffery would be for better causes.
Miracles happen all the time, never heard of people who sometimes have incurable diseases and be cured without a reason? It's wrong to ask God for a miracle for oneself in order to beleive, every person needs God and needs to have faith and we can't spend our life waiting for a miracle to happen to start beleiving.
Faith in God isn't something so complicated, it's simply an invitation for forgiveness and a better place in the afterlife, and each human is free to accept or decline, as for me a smart choice would be to accept.
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Firestorm77
Member
IMO, even if God were to show himself today for an instant, the generation after this one would never believe it. I'd pretty much bet my life on it that people would still doubt it. It doesn't matter if there would be video footage or eye witnesses or whatever. Skeptics will always be skeptics, and Cordoba is right. Some people will never be happy unless they can have God on the dissecting table. People would always say "Oh that video footage is fake, it was doctored" etc. They would say the same thing they say about scripture today. "Oh I can't possibly believe some ancient video footage that anyone can make with today's technology is actually the real thing or that God really appeared"...no matter what....there isn't really anyway to seal the deal forever. People might believe in the generation where God appears to them, just as I'm sure the generation that saw the parting of the Red Sea had none of the doubts that we might hold about God's existence today, especially after witnessing such an event take place.
This all shows the logical necessity for God leaving behind something which would be capable of allowing us to understand God's purpose for us, why He created us, why do we have choice, etc. The only way that the message can be ordained forever is through an artifact of clear unparalleled intelligence and perfection. What better are these artifacts than the observable entities which create the balances in a universe that is almost conflicting to life in every instance, except in a very specific scenario. And what is better than the guidebook which reminds of the reflection and awareness to these miraculous signposts which are ordained in perfect existence around us?
Though I'm not an art connoisseur, myself, I'm quite beholden to the fact of powerful imagery whenever I witness the work of a skilled artist, and, truly, the greatest art to me seems to be "nature" itself. The nature of the universe with its laws and physics, with its reciprocity and mathematical constants, and the co-operation and communication between all these aspects. From the co-operation in the mechanisms of the most simplest organism to the self-correcting and self-cleansing natural biosphere of the Earth, I'm truly touched by a sense of "sharing" and communication towards a greater scheme of things, irrespective of whether the full shape of it is still yet veiled to my mind.
To those minds who are ready to reflect and ponder, I would recommend the Qur'an simply on the basis of one chapter, itself, over any others due to my own personal experience and revelation of inspiration, of the type which caused utter silence in the mind's eye, due to a powerful thought which blanked out all others, something that rarely happens in my own mind as it always seems to be relentlessly curious.
Now to mention this extraordinary chapter. Though it might seem insignificant, the chapter which made me reflect the most was that of Surah 27, also known as "The Ant"
As I read it, I wondered about the systems of the ants. The tasks carried out by an animal with very little brainpower and known intelligence but with amazing organization skills to build homes, food stores, and a hierarchy system of workers, soldiers, and leading monarchy. I was truly amazed at this reflection and as I looked further down this rabbit hole, I wondered how even in the smallest things, there was a fact which would become apparently obvious...that there was a level of order...especially when there shouldn't be, nor was there any criteria of supposed certainty for existence, if I were to have admitted that the universe was not conscious of itself
Nope, He doesn't have to play by your rules, especially if He was the one to make all the rules in the first place. You want to find God you're gonna have to read religious scripture, so tough luck for you if you don't investigate when you have the mind and the choice to be able to do it but you didn't. You had every opportunity and as far as I can see, if you don't take it, that's your loss and every right to receive failure as a punishment. People who complain otherwise, it's like a student who complains to a teacher for his failure even after the teacher gave them plenty of time to study and succeed. When you go to school, you don't make the standards or decide the format in which you're going to be taught either, you are just simply taught by the format that is chosen for you. That's how life goes. You didn't pick your name when you were born, or your skin colour, or your race, or your family, or where and what time period you'd come into the world; because it wasn't your call, and you don't control the most important aspects of your life. Are you gonna cry about it? Get over it.
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