The Debate of God.

[Anatta]

Anatta, Thief is a victim of the 'Hero Myth', and sees everything in those terms, in which he thinks of heaven as a reward for worthiness.

I think Thief is confused. I also suspect that he is more focused on the aesthetics of his verse than on its content.

 

[godnotgod]

Infra-red light gives us the feeling of heat. At night, there's no light energy from the sun, so I imagine evolution set our bodies to sleep mode, to conserve energy. I can see light as being relative to dark in a sense of being able or not being able to see. But that doesn't explain what light is, or how light works. You're only bound by the your feelings, and not by the truth of reality. Feelings can be wrong.

I am trying to establish that what we perceive in the phenomenal world as dual is actually a single event, such as sound/silence, light/dark, good/evil, etc. Within the parameters of visible light, regardless of the technical explanation, we see light and dark as two events, when, in fact, it is one event along a continuum from dark to light, cold to hot, etc. In other words, we are deluded.

Things are interconnected when fused on molecular level. I don't think that my refrigerator is interconnected with my set of pencils.

The materials in all things comes from the same source. Somewhere along the line, your pencil is connected somehow to your fridge, but you are unaware of where the connection may lie.

 

[godnotgod]

I think Thief is confused. I also suspect that he is more focused on the aesthetics of his verse than on its content.

That seems to be the pattern.

 

[confused453]

I am trying to establish that what we perceive in the phenomenal world as dual is actually a single event, such as sound/silence, light/dark, good/evil, etc. Within the parameters of visible light, regardless of the technical explanation, we see light and dark as two events, when, in fact, it is one event along a continuum from dark to light, cold to hot, etc. In other words, we are deluded.

Our perception is not always right. That's why we have to act on truth based on real evidence. If you say that there's an ultimate reality, you have to be responsible to prove that it actually exists.

The materials in all things comes from the same source. Somewhere along the line, your pencil is connected somehow to your fridge, but you are unaware of where the connection may lie.

If a bunch of apples come from the same tree, and you are eating one of those, you are not eating the whole tree and all the apples that it ever grew. I see the universe as a field, atomic elements as the building blocks, and energy which makes it move.

 

[godnotgod]

Our perception is not always right. That's why we have to act on truth based on real evidence. If you say that there's an ultimate reality, you have to be responsible to prove that it actually exists.

And because perception is not always right, we need to pursue another pathway that is beyond sensory perception. Science can only give us data and facts, but if we want to understand what the nature of reality is, science is useless. Because Ultimate Reality is beyond detection via both sensory awareness and the conceptual mind, it cannot be so 'proven' via analysis; another kind of conscious awareness must be awakened, and that is cosmic consciousness.

We know that tv signals exist in a room but are invisible. We can access those signal by simply turning on the tv set, which proves their existence. We can also prove the existence of Ultimate Reality by tuning in to Higher Consciousness, even though the tv signal analogy fails as those signals cannot be proven by science. However, we DO know that meditators produce increased alpha and other waves, associated with higher forms of thought, and which are detectable via technological means.

Without realizing it, you have been indoctrinated to tune into things compatible with rational thought, such as science and technology, and to tune out anything that cannot be 'proven' by such means, to the extent that you label them as invalid. You approach your world in a completely analytical manner, disregarding the intuitive mind and what it tells you, out of a mistrust that you have been taught by your society. To approach life solely in terms of the intellect and analysis is to be out of touch with reality. I am not saying science is bad, but it provides only a narrow view, simply because its method is dissection. It seems to think it can assemble a picture of the universe from its component parts, as if it were putting together an engine. The universe is not a mechanical apparatus; it is a conscious, living entity, and you are a the very center of it, but you disallow the realization of your full potential by limiting a valid approach only to science.

If a bunch of apples come from the same tree, and you are eating one of those, you are not eating the whole tree and all the apples that it ever grew. I see the universe as a field, atomic elements as the building blocks, and energy which makes it all move.

But you cannot eat any apples without the tree, proving the interconnectedness. Furthermore, when you eat an apple, you are eating the sun, the soil, oxygen, co2, water, nutrients from the soil, which come about via insects and birds and other animals, and on and on and on. If you bought the apples in a market, humans are involved in picking the apples, packaging them, transporting them to market, etc. The vehicle used requires oil and fuel, and all their associated workers and industries. How much further shall we carry this?

 

[confused453]

...meditators produce increased alpha and other waves, associated with higher forms of thought, and which are detectable via technological means.

How do you know that they're just not hallucinating? Some drugs can make us imagine anything or any world we wish. My guess is that if you meditate hard enough and force your mind hard enough, you'll probably hallucinate in a similar manner. Now if you could demonstrate, how to access that ultimate reality, capture some videos for the world to see, that would be some proof.

...tune into things compatible with rational thought..

True. That's how I differencing reality from fiction. Truth from lies.

But you cannot eat any apples without the tree, proving the interconnectedness. Furthermore, when you eat an apple, you are eating the sun, the soil, oxygen, co2, water, nutrients from the soil, which come about via insects and birds and other animals, and on and on and on. If you bought the apples in a market, humans are involved in picking the apples, packaging them, transporting them to market, etc. The vehicle used requires oil and fuel, and all their associated workers and industries. How much further shall we carry this?

Those are all separate cases related to the apple. I though by interconnection, you meant constant interconnection on some magical level.

 

[godnotgod]

How do you know that they're just not hallucinating? Some drugs can make us imagine anything or any world we wish. My guess is that if you meditate hard enough and force your mind hard enough, you'll probably hallucinate in a similar manner. Now if you could demonstrate, how to access that ultimate reality, capture some videos for the world to see, that would be some proof.

This area is very well covered. In Zen, for example, during intensive meditation sessions called sesshin, students will excitedly report to their teachers that they just saw 'Jesus', 'Buddha', or 'Mary' standing right in front of them, to which the teacher calmly agrees with them and then instructs them to return to their meditation mats and focus on their breath, much to the chagrin and protest from their students. These hallucinations, called makyo, are well known and understood in the Zen world, and eventually dissolve away with more focusing and breath work. The teachers have been through this phase, and know them to be hallucinations, so are in a position to direct their students away from them. These false images come about since the powerful energies involved in sesshin stir up old stored imagery and bring them to the surface.

The enlightened mind is always present, and it is what knows the difference between delusion and reality. With increased practice, delusion begins to fall away, and the enlightened mind comes into play more and more.

True. That's how I differencing reality from fiction. Truth from lies.

For years we have been taught, via classical science, what 'reality' is. Now comes Quantum Mechanics which turns all of that on its head.

You have been taught that the life you live is real, but is it? Is it not merely an accumulation of ideas and images that you incorporate into something you call your 'self', but all of which was not part of your original makeup? Such a conglomeration might be thought of as a fiction itself, a character put together via your social indoctrination from birth, but which has no real enduring substance. In short, life is fiction.

Those are all separate cases related to the apple. I though by interconnection, you meant constant interconnection on some magical level.

That is what I mean exactly! You are looking too far away from what is right under your nose and so you are missing it. The clue is that the miraculous is the ordinary itself. Open your eyes.

Now, can you please define 'apple' for me.

 

[Looncall]

This area is very well covered. In Zen, for example, during intensive meditation sessions called sesshin, students will excitedly report to their teachers that they just saw 'Jesus', 'Buddha', or 'Mary' standing right in front of them, to which the teacher calmly agrees with them and then instructs them to return to their meditation mats and focus on their breath, much to the chagrin and protest from their students. These hallucinations, called makyo, are well known and understood in the Zen world, and eventually dissolve away with more focusing and breath work. The teachers have been through this phase, and know them to be hallucinations, so are in a position to direct their students away from them. These false images come about since the powerful energies involved in sesshin stir up old stored imagery and bring them to the surface.

The enlightened mind is always present, and it is what knows the difference between delusion and reality. With increased practice, delusion begins to fall away, and the enlightened mind comes into play more and more.




For years we have been taught, via classical science, what 'reality' is. Now comes Quantum Mechanics which turns all of that on its head.

You have been taught that the life you live is real, but is it? Is it not merely an accumulation of ideas and images that you incorporate into something you call your 'self', but all of which was not part of your original makeup? Such a conglomeration might be thought of as a fiction itself, a character put together via your social indoctrination from birth, but which has no real enduring substance. In short, life is fiction.





That is what I mean exactly! You are looking too far away from what is right under your nose and so you are missing it. The clue is that the miraculous is the ordinary itself. Open your eyes.

Now, can you please define 'apple' for me.

Yawn. Just more of the same old scams designed to free the priests/imams/gurus etc from the daily grind of survival.

 

[godnotgod]

Yawn. Just more of the same old scams designed to free the priests/imams/gurus etc from the daily grind of survival.

So you think there's life beyond survival? What is that life? Or is it just boring (yawn) like you?

 

[Thief]

I think Thief is confused. I also suspect that he is more focused on the aesthetics of his verse than on its content.

Not all.

This thread isn't really about 'proving' God.
It's more to what you expect in life after death.

If you have no God...no belief in life after death....
Then you don't really have a dog in this fight.
And it would be you, who is confused.

Unless of course it IS your intention to go about the forum...trolling.

Some people are confused...some are boring....

 

[Thief]

Anatta, Thief is a victim of the 'Hero Myth', and sees everything in those terms, in which he thinks of heaven as a reward for worthiness.

Not at all.

If you enter heaven it's because you belong there.

 

[godnotgod]

Not at all.

If you enter heaven it's because you belong there.

That's the Hero Myth. It creates a heavenly reward for your 'worthiness', as compared to the 'unworthy' and 'undeserving' who are denied such reward. This is just another clever ploy by the ego to set itself above and beyond others in spiritual pride, while projecting its Shadow onto them as inferior.

'Reward the good man, and you plant envy in the hearts of the undeserving'
Taoism: The Parting of the Way; Holmes-Welch

What you're failing to realize, Thief, is that the gifts of the Incarnation have already been given to everyone. We all have 'the Kingdom of God within', but fail to realize it because we are seeking external goals and rewards.

'The idea of 'another realm' is a substantial, delusive idea'
Shunryu Suzuki, SF Zen Center

It's all right here, right now, right under our very noses. You won't find it in Science, in Religion, or in some concept of a 'next life'. If you cannot find it here, now, it does'nt exist. The divine nature is only alive in this eternal Present Moment.

Shhhhh....listen!

 

[Thief]

That's the Hero Myth. It creates a heavenly reward for your 'worthiness', as compared to the 'unworthy' and 'undeserving' who are denied such reward. This is just another clever ploy by the ego to set itself above and beyond others in self-pride, while projecting its Shadow onto others as inferior.

'Reward the good man, and you plant envy in the hearts of the undeserving'
Taoism: The Parting of the Way; Holmes-Welch

What you're failing to realize, Thief, is that the gifts of the Incarnation have already been given to everyone. We all have 'the Kingdom of God within', but fail to realize it because we are seeking external goals and rewards.

'The idea of 'another realm' is a substantial, delusive idea'
Shunryu Suzuki, SF Zen Center

It's all right here, right now, right under our very noses. You won't find it in Science, in Religion, or in some concept of a 'next life'. If you cannot find it here, now, it does'nt exist. The divine nature is only alive in this eternal Present Moment.

More like do unto others as you would have them do unto you....
with consequences.

You're it.
What ever happens to you is your own fault.

Now....be your own hero.

 

[godnotgod]

Now....be your own hero.

Why can't you just go sweep the floor instead, and stop making a fuss?

 

[confused453]

With increased practice, delusion begins to fall away, and the enlightened mind comes into play more and more.

When meditating, you're still using your mind. What if the mind falls into a trap of "false" enlightenment, where you/masters think that the delusion begins to fall away, but in reality the state of delusion increases even more?

For years we have been taught, via classical science, what 'reality' is. Now comes Quantum Mechanics which turns all of that on its head.

I don't care what we have been taught. I only care that if you make a claim, you have to back it up by real evidence, and not by magical stories.

You have been taught that the life you live is real, but is it? Is it not merely an accumulation of ideas and images that you incorporate into something you call your 'self', but all of which was not part of your original makeup? Such a conglomeration might be thought of as a fiction itself, a character put together via your social indoctrination from birth, but which has no real enduring substance. In short, life is fiction.

It is real as far as I can tell. You can say the same thing about your ultimate reality when you do stuff in it, whatever you do there.

Now, can you please define 'apple' for me.

Just go to the market and get one, then do some research on it.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Excuse me, but your clever one shot dismissal of my statement does nothing to negate its veracity. You're just doing that as a means of denial. It won't work.

Can you be honest and just answer the question:

Are light and dark, heat and cold, phenomena along a single continuum or not?

No.

Basic physics.
And you never answered my question.

What do you call the lack of electromagnetic energy? And does a lack of electromagnetic energy necessitate the existence of electromagnetic energy?

 

[designedhumanist]

The introduction of God The Ultimate Humanist, gives a compelling justification for the existence of God. You can read it for free in the sample pages on Amazon.

 

[confused453]

The introduction of God The Ultimate Humanist, gives a compelling justification for the existence of God. You can read it for free in the sample pages on Amazon.

If you replace the word God with Magical Fairies in that book. Would there be compelling justification for the existence of Magical Fairies?

 

[godnotgod]

When meditating, you're still using your mind. What if the mind falls into a trap of "false" enlightenment, where you/masters think that the delusion begins to fall away, but in reality the state of delusion increases even more?

'Mind' is just a self-created concept which eventually also falls away in deeper meditation. Zennists call this state 'no-mind'. It is a state not of thinking, but of direct seeing into the nature of reality. Delusion comes about via thought. In the state of no-mind, there is no thought to create delusion. There is no 'moving mind'. Everything is perfectly still.

I don't care what we have been taught. I only care that if you make a claim, you have to back it up by real evidence, and not by magical stories.

Well you should care about what you've been taught, as it is proven that much of it ends up being erroneous. 'Magical stories' are not necessarily false. The universe itself is magic. Your science thinks it can explain everything away via nice, neat little formulae and minutiae, but is now reaching the limits of reason and logic in trying to do so, and is further away from a true understanding of the universe than ever. To say that the universe can come into existence via certain conditions is to say nothing. It does nothing to tell us what the universe actually IS. One of the leading researchers in Quantum Mechanics regularly consults with the Dalai Lama and his monks about QM because the scientists do not understand what it is they are seeing. They know how to do the experiments; they know what to predict; but they are baffled by what they see. Nothing makes logical sense. If you want magic, QM shows it to us.

It is real as far as I can tell. You can say the same thing about your ultimate reality when you do stuff in it, whatever you do there.

What is it about your life that makes you think it to be real? Are you your history? Is that who you are?

Just go to the market and get one, then do some research on it.

You cannot define 'apple' without taking into account all the things it is interconnected to, such as sunlight, oxygen, carbon dioxide, soil nutrients, anaerobic bacteria, worms, bird droppings, animal activity, and on an on and on. So what is an 'apple'? Anything you say will be have to be limited, as 'apple' is interconnected with the entire universe, as you are. However, you seem to think yourself a separate observer of the universe. That is not possible.

 

[godnotgod]

No.

Basic physics.

A gradual rise in temperature is not a continuum? The change when a dimmer switch is fully rotated from the off position in a totally dark room does not create a continuum?

What do you call the lack of electromagnetic energy?

Not sure, but I think its entropy

And does a lack of electromagnetic energy necessitate the existence of electromagnetic energy?

Not sure about a necessity, but it exists against a background. As I understand it, however, em energy always involves the interaction of negatively and positively charged particles.

NOTE: I am editing this answer now to tentatively state that, the opposite of em energy is matter, in keeping with the constancy laws of the universe as defined by Einstein, where E=mc2. For example, light is em energy that is converted, via photosynthesis, into chemical compounds.